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down with slavery posted:Charity will not bring about social change It actually does something, unlike Occupy. rscott posted:fierce defenders of the status quo like fischmech don't really want social change though Great strawman. 
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Jun 1, 2014 17:30
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Nintendo Kid posted:It actually does something, unlike Occupy. And yet, here you are still talking about it. How
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Jun 1, 2014 17:32
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down with slavery posted:Charity will not bring about social change Actually it does, look at certain powerful groups in the middle east, alot of the loyalty they are able to get from the masses comes from their charity organizations.
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Jun 1, 2014 17:36
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down with slavery posted:And yet, here you are still talking about it. How People still talk about anime video games from 1995, so by your standards apparently those did as much as Occupy. I participated in Occupy in Philadelphia, Newark, and New York City, btw.
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Jun 1, 2014 17:40
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Crowsbeak posted:Actually it does, look at certain powerful groups in the middle east, alot of the loyalty they are able to get from the masses comes from their charity organizations. I would say charity is more about keeping society the same than it is about changing things. A way to "fix" the inequalities inherent in capitalism with a comically inadequate quantity. Enables people like Warren Buffet/Bill Gates to sit on billions and still feel like they are doing their part because they donate a smaller pile of billions to Africa (instead of you know, funding political movements that could bring about the changes they profess to desire) Nintendo Kid posted:People still talk about anime video games from 1995, so by your standards apparently those did as much as Occupy. Look there's no reason to go out of your way to prove how big of an idiot you are, just slow down and try to make sense. Nintendo Kid posted:I participated in Occupy in Philadelphia, Newark, and New York City, btw. Self-loathing too, what a shock down with slavery fucked around with this message at 17:43 on Jun 1, 2014 |
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Jun 1, 2014 17:40
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Nintendo Kid posted:It actually does something, unlike Occupy. You don't, at least to the extent to actually affect the types of changes that are being discussed here and that's because at some level you are fundamentally ok with the way things are right now. All liberals are, if they weren't they'd be actual leftists.
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Jun 1, 2014 17:42
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down with slavery posted:I would say charity is more about keeping society the same than it is about changing things. A way to "fix" the inequalities inherent in capitalism with a comically inadequate quantity. Well if the political organization, gives to the many with no strings attached, it can create feelings of trust within the populace. Its really all about creating parallel structures, alternatives to the traditional powers.
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Jun 1, 2014 17:43
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rscott posted:You don't, at least to the extent to actually affect the types of changes that are being discussed here and that's because at some level you are fundamentally ok with the way things are right now. All liberals are, if they weren't they'd be actual leftists. It's amazing how you keep coming up with strawmen left and right. down with slavery posted:Look there's no reason to go out of your way to prove how big of an idiot you are, just slow down and try to make sense. You're really projecting way too hard at this point, buddy. No, I'm not self-loathing at all. Why do you think we left?
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Jun 1, 2014 17:44
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Crowsbeak posted:Well if the political organization, gives to the many with no strings attached, it can create feelings of trust within the populace. Its really all about creating parallel structures, alternatives to the traditional powers. Exactly, they have no interest in changing the structures that created their excess wealth (even though Warren Buffet has the gall to write opeds about his secretary paying less taxes than him), only creating new ones in their name to fellate their own legacy and ensure that their success is chalked up to "hard work" instead of a broken economic system that rewards sociopathic businessmen with billions for consolidating industries. Nintendo Kid posted:You're really projecting way too hard at this point, buddy. I'm not the one who dove to analogies about 1985 anime video games. I mean, I wish there was some way I could intellectually engage with you but I've been posting here long enough to know you're a complete idiot. Just look at this: Nintendo Kid posted:People still talk about anime video games from 1995, so by your standards apparently those did as much as Occupy. This is a thing you posted. What? I would love to see the train of thought that got you here explained. I suspect you fall back to one liners and non-content posts though, as usual. down with slavery fucked around with this message at 17:47 on Jun 1, 2014 |
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Jun 1, 2014 17:45
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down with slavery posted:Exactly, they have no interest in changing the structures that created their excess wealth (even though Warren Buffet has the gall to write opeds about his secretary paying less taxes than him), only creating new ones in their name to fellate their own legacy and ensure that their success is chalked up to "hard work" instead of a broken economic system that rewards sociopathic businessmen with billions for consolidating industries. We have an interest in challenging that, by making the downtrodden appreciate help, we have an interest in promoting interdependence, we have an interest at promoting the dismantling of the autonomous individual. We do this by helping the downtrodden with food, with money, with the acquisition of services.
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Jun 1, 2014 17:48
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Crowsbeak posted:We have an interest in challenging that, by making the downtrodden appreciate help, we have an interest in promoting interdependence, we have an interest at promoting the dismantling of the autonomous individual. We do this by helping the downtrodden with food, with money, with the acquisition of services. This is another "what the gently caress are you talking about". How is this a response to what I said in any way? This is just word salad.
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Jun 1, 2014 17:50
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down with slavery posted:I'm not the one who dove to analogies about 1985 anime video games. I mean, I wish there was some way I could intellectually engage with you but I've been posting here long enough to know you're a complete idiot. Just look at this: You used "Occupy is still being talked about by someone" as evidence of... something which you never made clear. Hence I pointed out that people also talk about old anime video games. This may be hard for you to understand, but people call this an "analogy". Pretty funny to see you of all people complain about "no-content posts" when most of your posting history is blind pseudo-leftist armchair raging with no relevance to reality.
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Jun 1, 2014 17:51
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down with slavery posted:This is another "what the gently caress are you talking about". How is this a response to what I said in any way? This is just word salad. What am I talking about? I am saying that promoting left wing charities is a great idea, hell that's what the left used to do to get the workers on its side. I am also talking about trying to promote community events so as to ensure that people are more willing to help each other, because people need to be able to trust each other in order to have solidarity.
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Jun 1, 2014 17:53
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Ok now I see the problem.Nintendo Kid posted:You used "Occupy is still being talked about by someone" as evidence of... something which you never made clear. Now here's where you ran into trouble. You were unable to understand what I was saying, so you made the mistake of trying to make an analogy about something you admittedly don't "get". Let me go into it for you. You said charity "does something" whereas Occupy does not. Despite people telling you the goal of occupy was to "Raise awareness" ie bring some issues into the spotlight. I posted graphs that demonstrated this (which you in your immense density ignored) and then tried to make it even clearer that to you by demonstrating that by (admittedly, I was not explicit) you even continuing to post about it and how it did "nothing" you are in fact proving that it did something. This is pretty obvious to most of the people here posting, hence the backlash to your stupidity. quote:Hence I pointed out that people also talk about old anime video games. This may be hard for you to understand, but people call this an "analogy". Shocking, you produce something of no value quote:Pretty funny to see you of all people complain about "no-content posts" when most of your posting history is blind pseudo-leftist armchair raging with no relevance to reality. Compelling argument, especially when attached to a post with 0 content. Maybe if you were able to comprehend the level of discourse that gets thrown around in D&D you wouldn't be known as a dense troll. Stop making analogies when you "don't get" things. Read more post less. Crowsbeak posted:What am I talking about? I am saying that promoting left wing charities is a great idea, hell that's what the left used to do to get the workers on its side. No it's not? Do you know what a Union is? quote:I am also talking about trying to promote community events so as to ensure that people are more willing to help each other, because people need to be able to trust each other in order to have solidarity. Yeah this is just a bunch of feel-good bullshit. I'm talking about bringing about social change at a federal level, not hosting a picnic. down with slavery fucked around with this message at 17:59 on Jun 1, 2014 |
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Jun 1, 2014 17:55
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Yeah the only way you get change at the federal level, large change is to start at the bottom. You have to connect to the people you want to help. Make them feel that they are part of the solution, or you will get no support from them. Yes you'll say "there just brainwashed by the financiers". However if you didn't try to directly change their attitudes, to connect, then why should they fallow you?
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Jun 1, 2014 18:00
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down with slavery posted:Ok now I see the problem. So you continue ranting about your own dumb attempt at laying an epic word trap, that backfired on you spectacularly. That's great! Charity does do things and "raising awareness" does not. "Raising awareness" is in fact a euphemism for "accomplishing nothing but wanting to feel good about it". The best part of "raising awareness" for participants is that they can then years later pretend like the nothing they accomplished really mattered because someone completely unrelated said something vaguely related. down with slavery posted:
The irony of this being posted just after a defense of "raising awareness" is pretty sweet I have to say.
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Jun 1, 2014 18:01
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Crowsbeak posted:Yeah the only way you get change at the federal level, large change is to start at the bottom. You have to connect to the people you want to help. Make them feel that they are part of the solution, or you will get no support from them. Yes you'll say "there just brainwashed by the financiers". However if you didn't try to directly change their attitudes, to connect, then why should they fallow you? Yes and the only way to incite large change in our political system is via $$$. Maybe you've missed the past 250 years but America runs on money. Money is what makes things happen and until the money gets behind alternative political movements aside from conservative (Democrat) and insane (GOP) we might be able to expect some kind of political change. The point being that charity does more harm than good. Local political groups are not charities. Leftist third parties are not charities. These are where the money should be going, not to buying mosquito netting to save the African children who are starving because the guys who are buying the mosquito netting refuse to challenge western dogma. Nintendo Kid posted:So you continue ranting about your own dumb attempt at laying an epic word trap, that backfired on you spectacularly. That's great! Backfired on me aka was too complicated for your small intellect to grasp. Right... quote:Charity does do things and "raising awareness" does not. "Raising awareness" is in fact a euphemism for "accomplishing nothing but wanting to feel good about it". The best part of "raising awareness" for participants is that they can then years later pretend like the nothing they accomplished really mattered because someone completely unrelated said something vaguely related. And yet, the advertising industry exists. Strange.
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Jun 1, 2014 18:02
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down with slavery posted:The point being that charity does more harm than good. A point that is 100% wrong.
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Jun 1, 2014 18:03
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Nintendo Kid posted:A point that is 100% wrong. Compelling counter-argument. Contentless? Check. One Liner? Check. Just posting anything and everything because you've been outed as an idiot? Check. Man you're predictable. Why not just take some time and actually TRY to create a counter-argument instead of  immediately as if my words will somehow "win" if they aren't responded to within 30 seconds.
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Jun 1, 2014 18:05
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down with slavery posted:Compelling counter-argument. Contentless? Check. One Liner? Check. Just posting anything and everything because you've been outed as an idiot? Check. You literally just told a lie and expected everyone to go with you.  You're even more predictable, as you've never been informed on any topic from India to farming to politics. Crowsbeak posted:However if you didn't try to directly change their attitudes, to connect, then why should they fallow you? Well clearly if you shriek at people long enough they'll believe you, that seems to be his approach to things. For some reason the world hasn't been converted yet.
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Jun 1, 2014 18:09
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down with slavery posted:Yes and the only way to incite large change in our political system is via $$$. Maybe you've missed the past 250 years but America runs on money. Money is what makes things happen and until the money gets behind alternative political movements aside from conservative (Democrat) and insane (GOP) we might be able to expect some kind of political change. The point being that charity does more harm than good. Local political groups are not charities. Leftist third parties are not charities. These are where the money should be going, not to buying mosquito netting to save the African children who are starving because the guys who are buying the mosquito netting refuse to challenge western dogma. Charity does more harm than good? If it did, the MB wouldn't have to be periodically put down across the middle east. The MB's power does not come from brainwashed faithful, it is people who remember that their rent was paid by it, it comes from people who remember being hungry and getting food at reduced prices at a place run by the MB. Its people who remember going to MB sponsored events in their communities. Also I would certainly not be for sending the money outside the US. The entire idea is to set up programs that benefit the downtrodden here, not some people in a foreign land.
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Jun 1, 2014 18:09
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down with slavery posted:Yes and the only way to incite large change in our political system is via $$$. No, that's just the only way to do quick change, because modern leftists (and really any third party in general) have no sense of patience.
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Jun 1, 2014 18:10
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Nintendo Kid posted:You literally just told a lie and expected everyone to go with you. Fishmech comes in with the extra point, kicking two one liners over the posts while continuing to remain content free. Note how he effortlessly slips in an ad hominem and emotionally lashes out "you literally just told a lie". Hilarious! Crowsbeak posted:Charity does more harm than good? If it did, the MB wouldn't have to be periodically put down across the middle east. The MB's power does not come from brainwashed faithful, it is people who remember that their rent was paid by it, it comes from people who remember being hungry and getting food at reduced prices at a place run by the MB. Its people who remember going to MB sponsored events in their communities. Also I would certainly not be for sending the money outside the US. The entire idea is to set up programs that benefit the downtrodden here, not some people in a foreign land. The Muslim Brotherhood is not a charity... you realize that right? I just told you explicitly that "political parties aren't charities". Do you know what the difference is between the Gates Foundation and the Muslim Brotherhood? computer parts posted:No, that's just the only way to do quick change, because modern leftists (and really any third party in general) have no sense of patience. As opposed to historic leftists, who patiently waited their turn. How do you even say this poo poo with a straight face? Are you even going to make me refute this idiocy? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Blair_Mountain
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Jun 1, 2014 18:12
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down with slavery posted:Fishmech comes in with the extra point, kicking two one liners over the posts while continuing to remain content free. Note how he effortlessly slips in an ad hominem and emotionally lashes out "you literally just told a lie". Hilarious! The only one emotionally lashing out here is you, but then you do that in almost every post so I suppose by now it seems like a flat affect to you. Describing the ongoing failings of your arguments is not an ad hominem, friend. computer parts posted:No, that's just the only way to do quick change, because modern leftists (and really any third party in general) have no sense of patience. Please don't smear modern leftists as being identical to certain people in this thread. Most of us are actually able to plan.
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Jun 1, 2014 18:16
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down with slavery posted:As opposed to historic leftists, who patiently waited their turn. How do you even say this poo poo with a straight face? Are you even going to make me refute this idiocy? How you do a movement: You start at local levels, build your way up, take state offices and maybe a Congressional office. This will take many years. How you don't do a movement: Blow all of your money on a presidential run and then claim it's a "protest vote" so people will change the party system overnight. I mean poo poo even the Southern Strategy took a few decades to fully come into effect and that was playing on views that people undoubtedly had; you're trying to convince them of things they aren't used to agreeing with.
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Jun 1, 2014 18:16
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down with slavery posted:Fishmech comes in with the extra point, kicking two one liners over the posts while continuing to remain content free. Note how he effortlessly slips in an ad hominem and emotionally lashes out "you literally just told a lie". Hilarious!
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Jun 1, 2014 18:16
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Nintendo Kid posted:Describing the ongoing failings of your arguments is not an ad hominem, friend. Agreed, I've been waiting for you to get started. I would love to see you post some actual counter-argument or discuss the actual content of my posts instead of resorting to "you just told a lie!" and "you've never been informed!", but alas, I doubt we'll see it any time soon. computer parts posted:How you do a movement: You start at local levels, build your way up, take state offices and maybe a Congressional office. This will take many years. See: the civil rights movement. Oh wait, reality has never worked like this! quote:How you don't do a movement: Blow all of your money on a presidential run and then claim it's a "protest vote" so people will change the party system overnight. This seems like an idea so stupid only a liberal could espouse it as a serious plan. Let me clue you in on something. "Leftist political parties" (what should be donated to) is not "a presidential run". Seriously not that hard to figure this out. quote:I mean poo poo even the Southern Strategy took a few decades to fully come into effect and that was playing on views that people undoubtedly had; you're trying to convince them of things they aren't used to agreeing with. The Southern Strategy was about finding a way to maintain existing social structure, not change it. down with slavery fucked around with this message at 18:19 on Jun 1, 2014 |
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Jun 1, 2014 18:17
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down with slavery posted:
One through its charitable actions has millions of committed supporters who will go into the streets for it at a drop of a hat? Also when you bring up Blair Mountain remember that it was only because these people had been brought to the cause that they fought.
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Jun 1, 2014 18:19
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FRINGE posted:Its the same in every thread. Dont spend too much effort on it. Yes I handily smash lovely arguments in every thread. down with slavery posted:Agreed, I've been waiting for you to get started. I would love to see you post some actual counter-argument or discuss the actual content of my posts instead of resorting to "you just told a lie!" and "you've never been informed!", but alas, I doubt we'll see it any time soon. You literally just lie about things constantly and don't know things, that's the failings of your arguments. For example, you just claimed all charity is bad and prevents change. So in honor of your belief, I refuse to be charitable to you.
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Jun 1, 2014 18:19
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Crowsbeak posted:One through its charitable actions has millions of committed supporters who will go into the streets for it at a drop of a hat? Well, I never said charitable actions are worthless. Charity has a definition and means something. An organization that gives things away does not a charity make. Obviously giving things away (which seems to be what you're talking about) doesn't do more harm than good universally. Nintendo Kid posted:For example, you just claimed all charity is bad and prevents change. The irony being I said no such thing. Your reading comprehension is so bad. does more harm than good =/= is universally bad and prevents change How do you post so little but still fail to maintain any sort of coherence? It's mind blowing
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Jun 1, 2014 18:20
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down with slavery posted:See: the civil rights movement. Oh wait, reality has never worked like this! The Civil Rights Movement took at least 20 years to fully come to fruition. quote:
quote:The Southern Strategy was about finding a way to maintain existing social structure, not change it. The Southern Strategy was about breaking up the Democratic power base and moving them to the Republicans. Even though the Republicans promised to make blacks suffer as much as they could it *still* took 20+ years to fully transform the South into a Republican stronghold.
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Jun 1, 2014 18:21
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computer parts posted:The Civil Rights Movement took at least 20 years to fully come to fruition. And? How long do you think the Green Party has been around? Are we moving too slow or too fast? Or maybe the issue is elsewhere (hint: it is) quote:This ha been the Green Party MO since at least 2000 and probably long before that. Which is why there aren't 128 elected officials (and none of them are the President!) from the Green Party across the country. quote:The Southern Strategy was about breaking up the Democratic power base and moving them to the Republicans. Even though the Republicans promised to make blacks suffer as much as they could it *still* took 20+ years to fully transform the South into a Republican stronghold. It doesn't matter because both sides have the same requirements of their economic systems and preserving those was the only goal that has any bearing on this conversation. Put quite simply, the Southern Strategies goals are not analagous to these because again, I'm talking about change, not entrenchment.
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Jun 1, 2014 18:25
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down with slavery posted:Well, I never said charitable actions are worthless. Charity has a definition and means something. An organization that gives things away does not a charity make. Obviously giving things away (which seems to be what you're talking about) doesn't do more harm than good universally. You said " The point being that charity does more harm than good." and "I would say charity is more about keeping society the same than it is about changing things" within the past hour, but apparently aren't smart enough to understand that those are ways of saying charity is bad? Well that's a hell of an admission but perhaps you should consider writing what you actually want to say the first time? Of course we all know that you do actually hate charity because you've had a history of disparaging it elsewhere. computer parts posted:
Their MO has also seemed to include a lot of allowing local chapters to go really weird and establish a bad rep too.
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Jun 1, 2014 18:26
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Um charity might perpetuate institutions that enforce the status quo but I don't think it's fair to say that they do more harm than good. It's poo poo like this that makes leftists sound tone deaf and out of touch with the people that they're professing to have the best interests in mind for. I mean christ you tell someone who's at a church run homeless shelter that they're better off out on the street until the revolution comes and lifts them up and gets them the help that they need and they're going to think that you're an rear end in a top hat. Please do not be so rigidly ideological that you forget that actual human lives are being affected.
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Jun 1, 2014 18:27
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The green party will never get anywhere because it entirely consists of latte liberals who are more concerned about vaccines causing autism then they are about pay inequality, of course it will never get anywhere. Green power is something that should be supported but hey there are other parties that support that to, and at the same time can occasionally offer policies that help someone who isn't some idealistic upper middle class liberal.
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Jun 1, 2014 18:28
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Nintendo Kid posted:You said " The point being that charity does more harm than good." and "I would say charity is more about keeping society the same than it is about changing things" within the past hour, but apparently aren't smart enough to understand that those are ways of saying charity is bad? Well that's a hell of an admission but perhaps you should consider writing what you actually want to say the first time? I did write exactly what I wanted to say. you were the one who changed those words into "you just claimed all charity is bad and prevents change" when I said no such thing. Those might be ways of saying charity is "bad" (note that this is walking back from what you said previously) but either way they definitely don't imply the words you're putting in my mouth. quote:Of course we all know that you do actually hate charity because you've had a history of disparaging it elsewhere. Yes that's it I'm a secret operative who's sole mission is to bring about the downfall of charity. quote:Their MO has also seemed to include a lot of allowing local chapters to go really weird and establish a bad rep too. Every political party does this (see anti-abortion democrats, anti-women republicans, etc)
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Jun 1, 2014 18:29
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down with slavery posted:And? How long do you think the Green Party has been around? It's been around for 30 years and it's done nothing of note for about the last 15 years. quote:
There's only one Green Party official in any sort of legislature anywhere in the country. That is a spectacular failure for a national organization. quote:It doesn't matter because both sides have the same requirements of their economic systems and preserving those was the only goal that has any bearing on this conversation. Put quite simply, the Southern Strategies goals are not analagous to these because again, I'm talking about change, not entrenchment. It matters quite a lot because entrenchment is a lot easier than change and entrenchment still took several decades.
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Jun 1, 2014 18:31
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down with slavery posted:Yes and the only way to incite large change in our political system is via $$$. Maybe you've missed the past 250 years but America runs on money. Money is what makes things happen and until the money gets behind alternative political movements aside from conservative (Democrat) and insane (GOP) we might be able to expect some kind of political change. The point being that charity does more harm than good. Local political groups are not charities. Leftist third parties are not charities. These are where the money should be going, not to buying mosquito netting to save the African children who are starving because the guys who are buying the mosquito netting refuse to challenge western dogma. A few hundred dollars can literally save a life. If you think that's less important that giving it to Bernie Sanders I don't know what to tell you.
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Jun 1, 2014 18:31
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rscott posted:Um charity might perpetuate institutions that enforce the status quo but I don't think it's fair to say that they do more harm than good. It's poo poo like this that makes leftists sound tone deaf and out of touch with the people that they're professing to have the best interests in mind for. I mean christ you tell someone who's at a church run homeless shelter that they're better off out on the street until the revolution comes and lifts them up and gets them the help that they need and they're going to think that you're an rear end in a top hat. Please do not be so rigidly ideological that you forget that actual human lives are being affected. I never said that the homeless were better off on the street. I'm saying that charity does more harm than good assuming that social change is the goal. Which in the case of this discussion, it is. I'm not talking about maxamizing suffering in order to bring about a revolution, I'm talking about forcing the ultrawealthy to confront the fact that giving away billions doesn't fix the problems we see around the world and that those problems could easily be fixed for a much smaller price if they just took the time to actually try to force that change instead of throwing bandaids around willy nilly. Kiwi Ghost Chips posted:A few hundred dollars can literally save a life. If you think that's less important that giving it to Bernie Sanders I don't know what to tell you. I'm saying that a few hundred dollars effects more social change in the hands of a leftist third party than it does a philanthropist. It's about return on investment and what the underlying goals are. Charity isn't about social change, it's about allowing the rich to morally absolve themselves for the absurd economic structures they refuse to change. Crowsbeak posted:The green party will never get anywhere because it entirely consists of latte liberals who are more concerned about vaccines causing autism then they are about pay inequality, of course it will never get anywhere. Green power is something that should be supported but hey there are other parties that support that to, and at the same time can occasionally offer policies that help someone who isn't some idealistic upper middle class liberal. You are a loving idiot who doesn't know anything about what you're talking about. Congratulations on being brainwashed by the media, here's the Green Party's platform for when you want to educate yourself: http://www.gp.org/what-we-believe/our-platform computer parts posted:It matters quite a lot because entrenchment is a lot easier than change and entrenchment still took several decades. Yes, entrenchment takes time. Change doesn't necessarily take time. You're right, change is difficult, but once you reach the tipping point, it happens all by itself. down with slavery fucked around with this message at 18:36 on Jun 1, 2014 |
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Jun 1, 2014 18:32
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rscott posted:Um charity might perpetuate institutions that enforce the status quo but I don't think it's fair to say that they do more harm than good. It's poo poo like this that makes leftists sound tone deaf and out of touch with the people that they're professing to have the best interests in mind for. I mean christ you tell someone who's at a church run homeless shelter that they're better off out on the street until the revolution comes and lifts them up and gets them the help that they need and they're going to think that you're an rear end in a top hat. Please do not be so rigidly ideological that you forget that actual human lives are being affected. It's the same rhetoric that the right uses for the safety net, too. "Don't you know you're hurting the people you claim to help?" - Average Reaganite An-Gov.
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Jun 1, 2014 18:37
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