|
 Bought a foreclosure last month. There's one of these boxes in each bedroom on the ceiling. 2 cables with 5 wires. I'm assuming this is for smoke detectors. If that's the case, can I get some that will tie into a Honeywell alarm system? I wanted to do wired anyway, doubly so since it appears to be done already. If it's not for smoke alarms, any ideas what it'd be for?
|
#
?
Jun 6, 2014 20:14
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 5, 2024 11:36 |
|
|
That's definitely not for smoke detectors. I'm pretty sure against code to run low voltage signalling cables in the same sheath as 120v AC (and running low voltage signals over 14 gauge wires is not a good idea and expensive). My first guess would be that it's for a ceiling fan with a separate switched light. But you'd only need 14/3 for that, or one 14/3 and one 14/2 with a three way switch for the light. But I have no idea why you'd use 14/2/2 to run two circuits to a ceiling, either. edit: actually with 14/3 and 14/2 for the three way switch, you'd still need a separate traveler wire circuit for the three way light switches; with 14/4 you'd make the connection there. So I'm pretty sure that is what it's for. Zhentar fucked around with this message at 21:45 on Jun 6, 2014 |
|
#
?
Jun 6, 2014 21:26
|
|
|
Zhentar posted:That's definitely not for smoke detectors. I'm pretty sure against code to run low voltage signalling cables in the same sheath as 120v AC (and running low voltage signals over 14 gauge wires is not a good idea and expensive). That's weird, the picture doesn't really show it well, but these boxes are too close to the door for them to be for ceiling fans. Not to mention there already are fans in the rooms. Now that I think about it, there's one in a hallway by the guest bedrooms. So that's romex, for in-wall AC, not some sort of low voltage stuff? edit: there are 2 ceiling fans (living room, master) that don't work. Lights don't either. But there aren't any of these boxes in those rooms. I'm even more confused now. PuTTY riot fucked around with this message at 22:02 on Jun 6, 2014 |
|
#
?
Jun 6, 2014 21:57
|
|
|
Also there is no way that retrofit box can support the weight of a ceiling fan. Any chance you can crawl up in the attic and see where the wires run? I am curious now.
|
|
#
?
Jun 6, 2014 22:02
|
|
|
I'm at work till 11, it'll have to wait until tomorrow.
|
|
#
?
Jun 6, 2014 22:03
|
|
|
Perhaps it is intended for 4 wire smoke detectors, then? 5 conductor romex wouldn't be the right way to wire it... but if it was a DIY job, they may not have know it wasn't the same thing as 14-4 fire alarm wire...
|
|
#
?
Jun 6, 2014 22:57
|
|
|
 For better perspective. There w're cover plates the painters didn't put back on. Can I use this stuff if it's wired correctly? I can probably borrow a toner from work also. I guess worst case I've already got the retrofit boxes in good enough locations. I'll get into the attic tomorrow and figure out where this stuff goes. Does this give me a big leg up getting wired alarms to a vista20p type setup?
|
|
#
?
Jun 7, 2014 01:44
|
|
|
No. That's for hardwired 120V smoke detectors (with a wire connecting all of them together). No idea why they used 5 conductor romex. They don't usually have a way to tie into an alarm panel. Smokes that tie into an alarm panel are typically 24VAC, and use 18/4 fire alarm cable that runs back to the panel.
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2014 04:32
|
|
|
Here are some general rules on fire prevention: Smoke detectors should not be placed in corners. Smoke/gasses will tend to not go into a corner space at first, which would delay an alarm. Avoid placing them near fans/registers/fireplaces/stoves. Detectors should be placed on the top of each flight of stairs and one in any sleeping room. Furniture should be made out of natural products like wood, cotton, wool, or leather. Avoid using candles and smoking in the house. Some old houses will have potentially dangerous electrical service panels made by Federal Pacific Stab-lok and Zinsco. These panels should be replaced. Any prior remodels done should be inspected for faulty work. BBQ grills should not be used under a roof unless it has a vent hood. Wood roofs need a periodic coating to resist fires. Houses should have small diameter screen around any vents into the roof or under raised houses. Plants should be kept low and away from the house. In areas with brush/wildland fires, there should be a clear area 100 feet around the house.
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2014 11:53
|
|
|
some texas redneck posted:No. That's for hardwired 120V smoke detectors (with a wire connecting all of them together). No idea why they used 5 conductor romex. They don't usually have a way to tie into an alarm panel. So I figured out why they used 5 wire romex. It was my AC guy who did it. The GC said that when they pulled the permit to replace the AC, they were required to install wired smokes. They're AC contractors, so they probably just used what they had. There's no relay or anything that could be integrate a 110v wired system with an alarm system? I'm replacing the ADT alarm system anyway, so if there's a certain brand that does this, I could go that way. e: something like this? http://amzn.com/B001AYERC2 PuTTY riot fucked around with this message at 17:02 on Jul 10, 2014 |
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2014 16:54
|
|
|
PuTTY riot posted:There's no relay or anything that could be integrate a 110v wired system with an alarm system? I'm replacing the ADT alarm system anyway, so if there's a certain brand that does this, I could go that way. It has nothing to do with the panel you are using....or at least there is no panel that will use 120v smokes. You need to check if the manufacturer of your 120v smokes has a relay available to interconnect to a panel. Most do. Most are pretty cheap as well. But it needs to come from the manufacturer of the AC smokes if you want to keep your UL rating (you do, because not doing so it yet another reason for insurance companies to deny a claim). Ninje edit: For example, this is what you use for Kidde AC smokes: http://www.amazon.com/Kidde-SM120X-Detector-Hardwired-Module/dp/B001AYERC2
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2014 17:02
|
|
|
I had no idea those existed, actually, so thanks for that. I may use that when we upgrade our burglar panel and smokes, if the local AHJ will allow it. We plan to replace our 120V smokes pretty soon, they're only 20 years old at this point anyway.  (they still go off every time we roast green chiles in the kitchen, and if I light incense in a bedroom, so they work, at least - if anything, they've gotten too sensitive).Still, the big issue I see with that is most panels that do handle fire, are typically addressable - meaning the panel can tell you exactly which smoke alarm has tripped. Using an adapter like what Motronic linked just gives you one single fire zone - which means you have no idea which smoke alarm has caused the alarm. I know the idea of a residential smoke/fire alarm is to just wake you up and get you out, but it can be helpful to know which alarm has tripped, assuming the system is monitored and you may try to either see if it's false and/or attack it with a properly rated fire extinguisher. The last house I lived in with alarm-connected smokes only had 2 of them (mid 70s house, alarm likely installed within a few years of building) - so if the fire alarm went off, you just checked the 2 smokes to see which one had a lit LED. One of them would false about every 2 weeks after a door was repainted under it, and it was such an old alarm that nobody knew how to just program the fire zone out (nor could they track down 6 volt smoke detectors). It was an ADT branded panel from about 1980-1982, but ADT doesn't make their own stuff - it was a very early 80s panel, it was old enough that the local ADT franchise only had one guy who knew how to burn a new PROM chip to change the code, and was a 6 volt system. I know it wasn't DSC, Ademco, or Napco (the keypad alones took up a triple-wide switchbox). I do know the house my dad current lives in has the same smokes and an inactive early 80s Silent Knight system in a 1984 house - not sure of the brand of smokes, but it makes me think it could be a rebranded Silent Knight. e: looks like SK is rebranded Ademco/Honeywell at least as of the 90s, right before they got out of the burglar alarm business (they only do fire now). drat my OCD! I'm still curious to know who actually made the alarm - I know the smokes and motions appeared to be early 80s. It was one of the earliest ADT branded panels that actually had LED indicators on the keypads (zone indicators + armed home/armed away/ready/memory indicators). It took a solid 2-3 seconds to respond when you opened a door; skinny 14 year old me could fling a door open, squeeze through, and slam it closed without the alarm noticing. 
randomidiot fucked around with this message at 11:49 on Jul 12, 2014 |
|
#
?
Jul 12, 2014 11:44
|
|
|
Completely forgot to ask this a while ago, but who was the moron that required all smoke alarms to be wired on the same circuit in all modern home construction? I get the main benefits of networked action for smoke detection around a house and for the majority of situations they always have power even if a battery kicks the bucket. The downside though is you can single handedly wipe out all the detectors in a home in one fell swoop and burn the drat place to the ground with no warning. Case in point that happened to a friends neighbor. Lightning struck the home towards the wall of one bedroom and fried the line that all the smoke detectors were on. Buddy messages me and stupidly I said check the walls for heat to see if there is a fire and just make sure breakers are off to that part of the house. They ended up not immediately contacting the fire department. Buddy messages me back 20-30 minutes later about smoke pouring out from multiple places at once and the house starting on fire in multiple areas. No smoke alarms going off, everything for that is completely wiped out. When the lightning struck, it hit the roof and traveled down the side of the house into the basement. It blasted apart a roof joist and started multiple fires in various parts of the house during its travel. Now that situation isn't exactly common, but holy poo poo it has some huge drawbacks. Why not wire together smoke alarms in some areas of the house and still leverage battery-operated units that connect wirelessly to act as backup?
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2014 05:11
|
|
|
A rod and surge arrester (part of a lightning protective system) would have prevented that fire. Not many houses have it, is your friends house one of the tallest in the area? If a neighbors house is taller I wouldn't bother getting one. That said, code requires one smoke alarm in every sleeping space and on every floor of the house and that they are wired together. Nothing is stopping anyone from installing extra alarms that are battery only. The reasons why it is required are typically due to after action studies with fatalities and are an attempt to prevent them. For example, a person is in a room far away from another room that is on fire, the fire spreads in such a way that they would become trapped unless alerted by a series of connected smoke alarms. The Gardenator fucked around with this message at 01:13 on Jul 17, 2014 |
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2014 01:09
|
|
|
So I'm looking into buying smoke detectors for my parents that I mentioned in this thread before, they live in a log cabin with a fireplace and the only fire detection is heat-sensitive bells from the 70's which probably don't work anymore. Also I just found out they have no insurance plan on it because nobody would insure it for less than several thousand dollars. Anyway, my dad is convinced that modern detectors false alarm so often that him being annoyed by them outweighs the fact that his family is in constant mortal danger. I told him about the dual sensor ones, that use both ionizing and lasers and both have to trigger to go off. I was going to buy a few for a test run to show him that they won't go off when he takes a shower or whatever, but I get to the store and the marketing spiel on the package makes it sound like the ones I found would trigger on either ionic or laser rather than both. Is there something specific I should be looking for or is the box just lying?
|
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2014 07:13
|
|
|
Place them away from showers and the kitchen. Important area to cover is the bedroom and top of stairs. You might also wanna look into firewise wildland urban interface. Which means clear poo poo away from your dad's cabin and prevent embers from getting into cracks in the cabin. http://www.firewise.org/?sso=0 and http://www.firewise.org/~/media/Firewise/Files/Pdfs/Toolkit/FW_TK_Tips.pdf
|
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2014 10:19
|
|
|
The only time our ionizing ones ever false is when we're roasting green chiles on the stove (as in dropping them into the flame from the burner - not using a skillet). And just opening the windows keeps them from going off.
|
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2014 13:19
|
|
|
Parallel Paraplegic posted:So I'm looking into buying smoke detectors for my parents that I mentioned in this thread before, they live in a log cabin with a fireplace and the only fire detection is heat-sensitive bells from the 70's which probably don't work anymore. Also I just found out they have no insurance plan on it because nobody would insure it for less than several thousand dollars. Anyway, my dad is convinced that modern detectors false alarm so often that him being annoyed by them outweighs the fact that his family is in constant mortal danger. I told him about the dual sensor ones, that use both ionizing and lasers and both have to trigger to go off. I was going to buy a few for a test run to show him that they won't go off when he takes a shower or whatever, but I get to the store and the marketing spiel on the package makes it sound like the ones I found would trigger on either ionic or laser rather than both. Is there something specific I should be looking for or is the box just lying? There is not technological solution to stubborn and stupid. Whatever you do there will simply be pulled down when you leave.
|
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2014 14:50
|
|
|
Motronic posted:There is not technological solution to stubborn and stupid. ehh, just disconnect the batteries and close the cover.
|
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2014 14:56
|
|
|
A nice bump for this thread since I knew it existed: I'm hearing ads for "10 year smoke alarms" on sale At The Home Depot (R). Are those a good idea? I really want my parents to replace their 25-year-old detectors.
|
|
#
?
Oct 15, 2014 03:31
|
|
|
babyeatingpsychopath posted:A nice bump for this thread since I knew it existed: Anything at all is better than a 25 year old smoke. The new 10 year ones should still be checked twice a year or more, but since no one does this the 10 year kind are a lot more practical than the older battery smokes that need a new battery in a couple of years.
|
|
#
?
Oct 15, 2014 15:32
|
|
|
Motronic: Why are ADT scumbags? You are a fire killer so I trust your judgement before my own. Alternatively, what are some easy ways to tell my parents they are getting ripped off, esp. when they are resistant to change, and make bad money choices to "feel safe" (e.g. buying warranties designed to expire before use, etc.)
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2014 15:45
|
|
|
Wasabi the J posted:Why are ADT scumbags? Because all they care about is making money. And having people sign contracts that stay with the house even if you sell it. I would absolutely positively never ever do business with them. They are preying on people using their brand recognition and a supposedly low up-front cost. But their low/no up front cost system is a joke that doesn't include enough to cover most houses, so you end up paying for more poo poo. Wasabi the J posted:Alternatively, what are some easy ways to tell my parents they are getting ripped off, esp. when they are resistant to change, and make bad money choices to "feel safe" (e.g. buying warranties designed to expire before use, etc.) I don't know what's going to work on them, but any standard system can be monitored by anyone. So you can shop for your monitoring and not get locked in. Or shop for people to fix/change/expend the system because anyone can work on it. ADT used to put in proprietary panels, but I understand they are now using DSCs or similar and just password protecting them (it can be gotten around). It's still a scummy business practice and they count on people not knowing poo poo and locking them in for 10 years at a time. There is literally no reason to sign a contract for anything more than a year of monitoring at a time, if even that. Unless you can't afford the system in the first place which means you should just put up battery smokes and save your pennies until you can get a proper system installed and pay cash for it.
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2014 15:50
|
|
|
Wasabi the J posted:Motronic: I use https://www.alarmgrid.com/ If you're a good son you can put the system up for them, it takes no time at all.
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2014 21:08
|
|
|
Is there an issue with using styrofoam in the attic? I used 2.5" sheets as soffit baffles and have a bunch of scraps mixed in with about 16" of flame retardent cellulose. I have about 1" of drywall/plaster between the insulation and living spaces.
|
|
#
?
Oct 23, 2014 08:57
|
|
|
dyne posted:Is there an issue with using styrofoam in the attic? I used 2.5" sheets as soffit baffles and have a bunch of scraps mixed in with about 16" of flame retardent cellulose. I have about 1" of drywall/plaster between the insulation and living spaces. Styrofoam is a pretty broad category. Is the "styrofoam" you used a listed building material being used for what it was designed (i.e. insulation)? If so, yes. It's safe. If not you'll need to provide a lot more details.
|
|
#
?
Oct 23, 2014 16:08
|
|
|
Are hardwired alarms a "must have" in any of your books? My father in law is an ex-cop and generally security minded. He's up my rear end to throw away the 10 year battery only alarms that I bought a few months back and install hardwired units throughout the house. We have a 2 story house so it would be a bit of a project.
|
|
#
?
Oct 23, 2014 17:00
|
|
|
Sointenly posted:Are hardwired alarms a "must have" in any of your books? My father in law is an ex-cop and generally security minded. He's up my rear end to throw away the 10 year battery only alarms that I bought a few months back and install hardwired units throughout the house. We have a 2 story house so it would be a bit of a project. Code in WI is that there must be a hardwired smoke detector in all sleeping areas. This is also the only area of code that is retroactive to my knowledge. Check with the fire dept. about where you are.
|
|
#
?
Oct 23, 2014 18:41
|
|
|
Sointenly posted:Are hardwired alarms a "must have" in any of your books? Yes. If this is a sensor you expect to work all the time with a minimal possibility of failure. Wireless systems also need increased maintenance (that usually doesn't get done) on wireless sensors, leading to systems that end up only partially functional after a year or so. These systems should be "set it and forget it" for 10 years at a time or more.
|
|
#
?
Oct 23, 2014 19:33
|
|
|
keyboard vomit posted:Code in WI is that there must be a hardwired smoke detector in all sleeping areas. This is also the only area of code that is retroactive to my knowledge. Yeah, when they pulled a permit to redo my hvac they had to add hardwired smokes.
|
|
#
?
Oct 23, 2014 20:42
|
|
|
keyboard vomit posted:Code in WI is that there must be a hardwired smoke detector in all sleeping areas. This is also the only area of code that is retroactive to my knowledge. What are the implications of the code being retroactive?
|
|
#
?
Oct 23, 2014 21:08
|
|
|
Zhentar posted:What are the implications of the code being retroactive? Normally when they update code you don't have to bring existing things up to it, unless you renovate, then anything you touch has to be brought up to code. Residential fire alarm requirements being retroactive means that you have to update the system regardless of weather or not it was originally build without hardwired smokes.
|
|
#
?
Oct 23, 2014 21:11
|
|
|
And what does "have to update" mean? If I pull a permit for anything, they'll check and require that? If I have a house fire my insurance will deny my claim because I don't meet code? Not that the difference really matters to me, but I'm curious.
|
|
#
?
Oct 23, 2014 22:07
|
|
|
This hard-wired fire alarm requirement is news to me, and I haven't seen anyone with a house older than 2000 with hardwired detectors here in PA. I know the municipality definitely didn't seem to give a poo poo about fire alarms during the purchase process for my current place.
|
|
#
?
Oct 23, 2014 23:46
|
|
|
Jared592 posted:This hard-wired fire alarm requirement is news to me, and I haven't seen anyone with a house older than 2000 with hardwired detectors here in PA. I know the municipality definitely didn't seem to give a poo poo about fire alarms during the purchase process for my current place. You live in PA, which is a commonwealth and operates as such. Every municipality is free to choose and adopt it's own code. It's a poo poo show from the standpoint of a contractor and splashed over onto us code officials.
|
|
#
?
Oct 24, 2014 00:23
|
|
|
Keyboard Vomit said the retroactive hardwired code was for Wisconson specifically.
|
|
#
?
Oct 24, 2014 00:25
|
|
|
Leperflesh posted:Keyboard Vomit said the retroactive hardwired code was for Wisconson specifically. But in general code that is retroactive applies to renovations over a certain percentage or dollar value and change of ownership/change of occupancy/change of use.
|
|
#
?
Oct 24, 2014 00:29
|
|
|
Motronic posted:Styrofoam is a pretty broad category. Is the "styrofoam" you used a listed building material being used for what it was designed (i.e. insulation)? If so, yes. It's safe. If not you'll need to provide a lot more details. Yes, baffles I made are from sheets of expanded polystyrene made for building insulation. The scraps from cutting the sheets to fit for the baffles were mixed in when I blew the cellulose. I also have a pile of packaging styrofoam I was going to recycle as insulation next time I was in the attic, but I assume from what you're saying that'd be a bad idea code-wise. dyne fucked around with this message at 13:18 on Oct 24, 2014 |
|
#
?
Oct 24, 2014 13:15
|
|
|
dyne posted:The scraps from cutting the sheets to fit for the baffles were mixed in when I blew the cellulose. It's not the worst thing that could happen, but I wouldn't do it on purpose either unless you're laying full sheets under the cellulose. Things are tested in certain ways for compliance. Styrofoam in sheets, cellulose with a minimal amount of contaminants. dyne posted:I also have a pile of packaging styrofoam I was going to recycle as insulation next time I was in the attic, but I assume from what you're saying that'd be a bad idea code-wise. Yes, absolutely a bad idea. It's not a building material so it wasn't tested for flam or smoke spread characteristics. I take a pretty hard line on these things because of my background. While some things like this may not cause a problem you simply don't know and the cost savings isn't worth the risk of life, injury, property damage or denied insurance claims in my opinion. I've seen each of those outcomes from various stupid moves in construction.
|
|
#
?
Oct 24, 2014 14:40
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 5, 2024 11:36 |
|
|
dietcokefiend posted:Case in point that happened to a friends neighbor. Lightning struck the home towards the wall of one bedroom and fried the line that all the smoke detectors were on. Buddy messages me and stupidly I said check the walls for heat to see if there is a fire and just make sure breakers are off to that part of the house. This hasn't gotten addressed directly, but everywhere I've lived the FD has said they'd rather you call and be wrong than your house burn down. Where I am right now (NE Orlando) there's no charge for fire dispatches from phone calls that are accurate and placed in good faith until you get into the double digits per year. My roommate's car caught on fire in our driveway a few years back and the firefighters made a huge deal out of talking to all the neighborhood kids about this. By all means, check your local law, but in a house fire a few minutes can represent thousands of dollars of damage or even the loss of lives.
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2015 02:04
|
|
