Single-Payer Health Care: As Goes Canada, So Goes Vermont

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Single-Payer Health Care: As Goes Canada, So Goes Vermont

anonumos: Jul 14, 2005; Fuck it.

Isn't it also a little insulting to say "You silly proles shouldn't be doing something as high brow and expensive as skiing. Go back to your hovels before ~~I hurt you~~ you get hurt."

# ¿ May 5, 2014 03:42

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# ¿ May 22, 2024 09:07

anonumos: Jul 14, 2005; Fuck it.

forgot my pants posted:

I didn't say anything about euthanizing the disabled, so please be more precise with your wording.

Anyway, I may be misreading what you're saying, but it seems like you believe there is an infinite amount of healthcare to go around, if we just prioritize it. This just isn't true, as evidenced by previous posts about rationing of care in single-payer systems, which you admitted occurs. A good example of this is radioisotopes used in PET scans. There are a number of different molecules used, but they are all produced by just a handful of nuclear reactors in the world. In the past, when these reactors have had to shut down unexpectedly, it's resulted in shortages of these radioisotopes worldwide. There's lots of drugs that we have periodic shortages of as well, but radioisotopes are illustrative of the supply problem. Right now we can only effectively produce them in nuclear reactors, so increasing the supply would be a difficult undertaking that would require a decade or more of work.

While the specific circumstances I laid out in my original post have a small (but disproportionate) effect on the cost of healthcare, there are many similar questions, which cumulatively have a large effect. For instance, do single-payer systems pay for surgeries on terminal cancer patients when those surgeries will not statistically benefit a patient? Will they pay for double mastectomies in unilateral breast cancer patients who are unlikely to develop cancer in the healthy breast, yet want to prevent that possibility altogether (while risking additional complications from the more invasive surgery)? I know the UK uses quality adjusted years of life scores to account for these questions, which seems fair. But the average American seems to believe they should be able to get any treatment they demand, in the vanishing hope that it might prolong their life. Places like Cancer Treatment Centers of America exploit this mentality quite effectively. I think that mentality needs to be changed before it will be palatable for the federal government to create a standard like QALY that dictates what care you can receive.

The cost of healthcare does not have anything to do with the actual cost of healthcare. We pay more for every single procedure, device, medication, and service. Let me rephrase: we (the US) spend more on private healthcare than other countries pay on UHC. Even still, fewer people can get care, pay for that care, and remain in care long enough to recover than in other countries. If anyone wants to talk about the price of American healthcare compared to UHC, they're welcome to explain why other countries are healthier, recover from injury and illness faster, and have other better outcomes despite "death panels", "rationing", and "high taxes".

# ¿ May 5, 2014 20:34

anonumos: Jul 14, 2005; Fuck it.

Bicyclops posted:

You're essentially saying that anyone working in the sciences chose an impractical life.

I think what he's saying is that anyone who works chose an impractical life.

# ¿ May 6, 2014 14:38

anonumos: Jul 14, 2005; Fuck it.

Fat Ogre posted:

Look at you guys getting angry at actually weighing your options and taking the jobs that have healthcare and pay enough to get your way through college.

If you don't have that support network to help you out, DON'T loving risk it and instead take the practical jobs that will get you paid and get your healthcare taken care of.

Wow. So much for entrepreneurship, scholarship, and utilizing one's potential. gently caress all that. Do something "safe".

You sound like a Republitarian shill, talking down to people and telling them their place in the world.

# ¿ May 6, 2014 15:04

anonumos: Jul 14, 2005; Fuck it.

Fat Ogre posted:

I know you think your quote is a joke but it isn't that far from the truth of what needs to be done. I've seen it work enough times to know it isn't bullshit. People just get tied up with "I sunk thousands into this degree I need to try to find work tied to it." Instead of just giving up on that tactic and switching to something different or even going back to school for something different.

Your job is literally you selling your labor or services to someone. Your wages and benefits are tied to how much worth you bring to the table and how valuable your services are in the market place.

That you can't find a job in many cases means you aren't selling something people want, you lack the skills or features that set you apart from a hundreds of others just like you. You shop around for a good deal on everything from haircuts to home electronics to groceries, employers do the same for employees. That people don't understand this is honestly a failure of our educational system.

Your options are either keep blindly plugging away at getting a job or try a different course of action. One good thing about Obamacare is it makes it much easier to start your own business now. You don't have to worry about not being able to get Health Insurance, which is huge. If eventually the US switches to UHC that will make it much much easier for more people to start their own companies and do things that kept them tethered to their old jobs by playing it safe for so long.

It amazes me that if Republicans stump for Job Creators that they hate the idea of Universal Healthcare so much because it will literally help people create more jobs.

Employers don't "shop around" for labor. And, right now, it doesn't matter WHAT you majored in. Someone posted an article that you conveniently ignored showing that even "good degrees" face high unemployment for the graduates of 2014. The problem isn't that we have a population of ill-educated workers; the problem is that the wealthy don't need them (at all, not just "we don't need a feminist underwater basket weaver"), and the workers are so burdened with debt and so poor on average that they can't go about hiring each other.

# ¿ May 8, 2014 16:31

anonumos: Jul 14, 2005; Fuck it.

Fat Ogre posted:

Comp USA

You know nothing about that company or why it failed/was sold off to the lowest bidder. The company execs ran it into the ground, offering poo poo customers didn't want, at prices that weren't competitive, and essentially destroying the entire business model that made it a worthwhile store in a niche of their own. They chased the big box retailers and failed...

It had nothing to do with technology replacing jobs and everything to do with incompetence in the investor class.

# ¿ May 8, 2014 17:15

anonumos: Jul 14, 2005; Fuck it.

Fat Ogre posted:

Uh huh, yeah and same with Circuit City and eventually Block Buster.

Amazon and New Egg are earning record profits because they don't have to have the overhead of brick and mortar stores.

CompUSA failed because we had customers coming in all the time looking for computer parts and our parts section was nearly empty. But boy did we have a thousand big screen TVs that nobody could afford!

I had half a dozen opportunities to sell massive gaming laptops...except the people who buy them want to upgrade everything in them at the store. They literally had their credit cards in-hand, but decided not to because we didn't have the hard drives or memory. We did at one point. They stocked everything you needed to be the most kickass brick-and-morter-I-must-have-it-now computer store but, again, the TVs were more important.

They had the position to out-do online shops but chose the other way.

# ¿ May 8, 2014 17:21

anonumos: Jul 14, 2005; Fuck it.

Fat Ogre posted:

Brick and Mortar electronic stores are mostly doomed. It doesn't matter how great they are.

Radio Shack is dying right there with Best Buy.

Why goto a brick and mortar store when you can get the same part cheaper, shipped next day with no sales tax?

I'm only telling you what I experienced while working there. Most of CompUSA's best, most spendy customers wanted it NOW. Impulse buyers and top-of-the-line early adopters. When they stopped paying attention to who walked in the door, they died. The same is happening to Radio Shack, except they were always garbage with nothing anyone wanted.

# ¿ May 8, 2014 17:28

anonumos: Jul 14, 2005; Fuck it.

Fat Ogre posted:

Trade schools, starting your own business, getting certifications for fields that don't require a degree like IT, support jobs, or other service jobs.

Then use that decently paying job to pay for your degree and not get crushed by debt.

If you're really lucky your job will pay for your school and you can get promoted upwards once you get your degree.

Name one company that will pay for your school. You see, by and large companies have stopped doing this. Why bother? They can hire another fool who ALREADY went to school and kick you to the curb.

# ¿ May 8, 2014 21:57

anonumos: Jul 14, 2005; Fuck it.

Fat Ogre posted:

There are poo poo tons of jobs out there. 4.2 million of them. You just have to be better suited for that job than 60% of other people in this hypothetical situation.

Again you'll never get unemployment to 0% and you still have the issue of people that are long term unemployed because of reasons like health or taking care of family members etc.

You have a long way to go to understand what you're spouting off about. Keep digging. Please. You need to learn.

I will point out that it is beneficial to us all that the marginalized workers have both the opportunity to create new niches for themselves (through entrepreneurship or advanced education) and survive long enough to become productive in one of these new niches. The best method to do this is through federal or state governmental programs. Welfare.

There certainly is the moral component to it; many of us feel it is moral to provide support through public programs. We all chip in to help those less well off (you know, like Jesus said, except we make it the government's responsibility and make contributions toward those programs mandatory).

However, we also know that it is the conservative solution, meaning it helps the economy and all of society to run SNAP, Social Security, Unemployment Insurance, and basic welfare. That is the main point of being concerned with inequity, not necesarily because of the difference between classes, but because the most poor are so very, very poor. We will all benefit by relieving relative poverty, whether welfare recipients "deserve" it or not.

Morally, the poor do not deserve to die for being marginalized by business. Financially, poverty is an increasing drag on the wider economy, from increased crime to decreased general health.

There is a great deal more to this than any of us can explain in one post or even one thread. I've been reading info-threads on SA for almost a decade, and in that time I've gone from a luke-warm libertarian to an enthusiastic social-democrat.

# ¿ May 9, 2014 01:37

anonumos: Jul 14, 2005; Fuck it.

Fat Ogre posted:

Were at 6.7% unemployment.. 5-6% is considered healthy for the economy.
http://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/economy_14424.htm
If all 4 million found jobs that would reduce unemployment by 2.68% means we'd be at 4.02% unemployment which is considered amazing and healthy for our country so again, this isn't that big of a deal.

You cannot get unemployment to 0% nor would you want to.

Those numbers have been greatly smudged. Real unemployment hovers around 15%. (There's a reason they don't "count" underemployed, discouraged, and long-term unemployed workers in this figure...the economy is essentially a confidence game at this point.)

# ¿ May 9, 2014 05:14

anonumos: Jul 14, 2005; Fuck it.

Fat Ogre posted:

If you're still considering a PHD in something like Archaeology or any other low paying highly competitive field that is irresponsible or uninformed plain and simple.

We're going to start requesting citations from you when you go half-cocked about worthless majors. What do you know about archaeology?

# ¿ May 9, 2014 18:38

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# ¿ May 22, 2024 09:07

anonumos: Jul 14, 2005; Fuck it.

Fat Ogre posted:

Notice how I said they should have to post their prices upfront. It could allow comparison shopping before hand. Or once you're stable being transferred to a lower cost place.

Again UHC would be nice but there are smaller things that could get through first to make it easier for people.

You are NOT going to comparison shop when your brain is hemorrhaging or some dickheel runs you over in his car. Posting prices will change NOTHING except the elective market, while the majority of emergency health care is dispensed price-blind. You need it; you get it; you figure out how to pay the extortion fees later.

# ¿ May 10, 2014 15:44

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Single-Payer Health Care: As Goes Canada, So Goes Vermont