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Waterhaul posted:ORIGINALLY POSTED IN THE OTHER MARVEL THREAD WHERE THEY RECAPPED PROMO MATERIAL ABOUT ORIGINAL SIN. Speaking of promos, I was thinking about Fear Itself and I think that the Promos for the event are systematic with what's wrong with FI as a crossover. (NB: This is not a post to bitch about Events in general or how Original Sin is going to suck because of Fear Itself. I've got a point here, bear in mind.) Here's what I mean.I didn't get Fear Itself when it came out, as at that stage I decided to just Trade Wait for all the events. All that being said, I was following FI due to the promos and the build up to the event. And the build up made it look great. You had all these question marks about the Worthy, who were they, what was there deal, why are characters fighting to become Worthy? And then later on you had similar things with the Mighty. And you also had these fantastic "Do You Fear?" promos. And they were great, they were individually tailored to the big Marvel properties (Hulk, Spider-Man, Cyclops, Cap, Ironman and Thor.) But in each case they actually cut to the core of the character. Each one said something about fitted the person. How Hulk fears losing control, how Cyclops should fear how he's become Magneto, how Spider-Man fears dealing with a problem that is much bigger than him. It also made the event seem like it would involve characters having to confront what they fear and dealing with a challenge that was unique to themselves, what they Feared the most. Then when I got the Trades and read it? Nope! Much like how Secret Invasion could have been a BSG style story about heroes losing trust in each other and having to deal with betrayals and sleeper agents, Fear Itself didn't have anyone facing what they feared. And it also seemed to have no complexity to it. I read the main series Trade, and I kept feeling that I was missing out on really important comics that fleshed out the story. Like Sin just somehow gets a huge army of Nazi's armed with mechs after like two panels showing these suits get built. A lot of the Worthy were just "guy walks up to the hammer/ is compelled to pick it up and suddenly they are an evil God." Major events start happening around the world and all seems doomed? Who was the Serpent and what was his deal? What the hell was up with the Mighty and the weapons that Iron-Man made for them? And then I decided that I must have been missing stuff and so I started to double down. I read the Loki, Journey Into Mystery stuff and that at least sort of explained stuff (particularly about the Serpent.) But then I read the X-Men and Thunderbolts stuff to figure out what was happening with Juggernaught. Yeah some stuff, but very little. I went to read up on the Hulk and eh, nothing really got explained. And it seemed that the more I tried to find out what happened, the more disappointed and the less sense it made. I decided to quit before reading any of the Iron-Man stuff. Like that might have been where all the answers I was seeking lay, but I doubt it. Anyway, long story short. The promos for the Event were so good that they created a really interesting story in my head, that the actual event didn't even come close to matching. I'm just going to try and avoid similar material for Original Sin in the hopes that it doesn't overhype the event. Especially since the Waid written Issue 0 was really good and makes me want to follow up on the Sam/Nova plot line.
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Apr 27, 2014 17:10
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WickedHate posted:Thor hearing a prayer from a girl on a far off alien world is what starts the first arc of God of Thunder, and the rest of the story arc shows that they are definitely not just aliens. There are countless other pantheons and "god" is a thing separate from mortals. Not to forget Gillen's Journey Into Mystery run (and Al Ewing's Loki: Agent of Asguard) where characters are stories that can be rewritten or changed to suit a motivation. Or how they can die and come back with seemingly no recourse, as long as it furthers their tale.
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Apr 27, 2014 21:45
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Senor Candle posted:You just listed something Thor can do, not why that means he is a god and not an alien. Because prayer is talked about as being a tangible thing that has benefits. Thor hears and answers the prayer of an alien girl at the start of the arc. By the end of the arc, every God through out all of time is Praying to Thor to give him the strength to defeat a bomb that travels backwards through Time killing every God that ever existed. quote:You are describing all characters in comics. Except the characters in universe recognize and accept this. This isn't like Deadpool looking at the reader and saying that he'll be back next month. This is Loki and Leah deciding that the only way to make the Serpent a beatable character is to go back in time and establish that he once loved a girl and that he has a small chink in his heart. And that it is all done from the point of view that they are changing his story by fleshing out his origin and making him from into less of a force of nature and more of a character. The Gods in Marvel have just gone from being Humanoids with flesh three times as dense as humans to being myths made real.
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Apr 27, 2014 22:17
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Here's some small observations. What we are meant to take from reading the issue is to see that the Watcher is dead and that his eyes were carved out and his tech closet raided. However this is likely not correct. While the eyes were removed post mortem, there is no guarantee that whomever killed the Watcher, set out with the intention of taking his eyes. Consider this. The Watcher was killed by a professional (as per the analysis of the body.) Yet the shot was to the Watcher's head, into the brain. If the murderers intention was to rob the Watchers eyes after killing him it stands to reason that they would not have gone with a head shot and risked damaging one of the eyes. What does all this mean? I think it is likely the person who killed the Watcher and the ones who robbed his home and his corpse are not one in the same. We could be dealing with two, potentially three parties. (After all, who says that the thief had to have taken BOTH eyes. The people at the end of the issue are shown with One Eye which is most likely Utah's Eye. But the second Eye could have been taken by someone else.) The theory that the person who killed the Watcher didn't take his stuff afterwards runs into a problem. How likely is it that someone would break in and steal the Watcher's stuff just after he'd been killed. It seems like too big a coincidence, until you consider that Marvel released a Anthology One shot about a year or so ago, where the framing story was about the Watcher going into a cosmic type of sleep to sort out his brain. As this happens, two mysterious figures in Space Suits show up to move around his home to do something. The details are a little lost on me, but it's likely that there are parties who have been monitoring the Blue Area of the Moon and were waiting for just the right time to take stuff, and decided to do so in the aftermath of this robbery. If we go with this theory, the question then becomes, why did the murderer kill the Watcher? Removing greed as a motive we are left with two likely possibilities. A deep, personal grudge. Say anger at the Watcher for not interfering in an event, or anger at something that Utah's people have done. (The 0 issue helpfully reminds us that an entire race of beings were wiped out by Utah's people's meddling. Maybe that is why he did it.) The other motive could be to keep something a secret. Utah sees everything, maybe the killer wanted him silenced. The Nick Fury theory has been floated and it's plausible. On the other hand Nick seems to be doing an active job investigating the case so it could be someone else. One final point. I initially took the person talking to T'Challa to be Tony Stark, giving the Illuminati link and all. However it is clear that he is someone else, someone very well connected who can organize people on a grand scale. (This could indeed be Nick Fury. It could also be Bruce Banner or Amedeus Cho.) But look at the page where he's on the phone. If you look at his hands he appears to be holding a giant, glowing green bullet. Very similar to the fragments the Widow pulls out of Utah. Is he the murderer, sending the teams on a wild goose chase? Steering the investigation in the direction he wants it to go? Or is he someone who has already figured out the murder weapon and is conducting his own investigation? If so this person is truly a Great Detective. So in conclusion, my guess is that Batman did it. The Pre-52 Batman, obviously.
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May 9, 2014 19:55
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muscles like this? posted:Midas' thing is that he's a collector and one of the things he collected was the Iron Man suit Tony was wearing when he founded the Avengers. Midas also appeared in a 90's Iron-man story way back in the day. It was one that involved Ultron being behind Tony's evil Sentient armour and a city of people all devoted to Yin-Sen (the guy who helped Tony build the first Iron-man suit.) As far as I can remember, the plot involved Midas saving Yin-Sen's brain in exchange for some tech. Edit: From looking it up, all of it went down in Iron-Man Annual 2000. And from reading a synopsis, the villain was Wong Chu (the yellow peril villain from the first Iron-Man story who was still alive) and Dr. Midas traveld through time to help them out. Ultron did show up in a later story involving the Sons of Yin-Sen, but not in the same appearance as Dr. Midas.
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May 11, 2014 17:42
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So reading yesterday's issue confirmed a lot of the speculation I had posted on page 6. In particular it has all but confirmed that the person who killed the Watcher did not steal BOTH his eyes. And if that's true, then it stands to reason that the person who stole the first eye may not have shot the Watcher. (Which I still believe was done by a different individual on the basis, why would you shoot someone in the head if you wanted to take one of his eyes.) Still think it was Batman.
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May 23, 2014 09:31
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Gavok posted:Another thing is that I think there's more than one investigation here. Much like how we're led to believe that there was only one party murdering and pillaging when they're probably not, we're also led to believe that every team-up is put together by Nick Fury. But has that even been confirmed? Also, if you re-look at issue 1, the person who is talking to Black Panther already has one of the glowing green bullets that the Punisher was pulling out of the monsters and that Black Widow pulled shards out of Utah. That investigator could well be the real murderer (sending the others on a goose chase) or someone who knows far more about the murders then he's told his team. In which case, what is his game? (Spoiler: It's totally Batman.) The only other people I could think who could organize such a group are Tony Stark, Bruce Banner, General Ross or as an outside, Charles Xaiver.
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May 24, 2014 01:56
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First Bass posted:That moment Fury had with his flying car was amazing, and reminded me why I read comic books. If you liked that issue, then you really should track down Original Sin #0. The story is pretty much just Nova and the Watcher, but even without being familiar with any of the back story you should be able to understand the dynamics of their relationship pretty well.
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May 25, 2014 16:27
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You know what struck me about Original Sin so far, about why it's good? Because the Tie-In makes sense. Like Tie In's to events are a tough thing to balance normally, particularly so when the main story is a mystery. You can't have the Tie In's further the mystery because there's a good chance that one of the writers will just cack-handily spoil the mystery, so normally they just aren't related to the story at all. (See the Identity Crisis tie ins where the Teen Titans decide to track down Lex Luthor's armour.) But OS figured out a way to have organic tie ins by focusing on the overall theme of long buried secrets coming to light. But the reason it's working for me is the secrets all feel like mysteries their books were going to deal with at some point (Cap's mind wipe, what happened to Sam's dad in Nova, where does Angela come from) or they are exploring themes that the books wanted to go with anyway (Tony re-examining his past, Bruce Banner's jealousy/feelings of inadequacy towards Tony, Dr. Bashire friendship with the Watcher,) So far, I'm really enjoying this event and I think the Tie In's are good. Plus I loved the speech that Ulana gave about how Utah was damned for doing too much and for doing too little. (and including Scott Lang was a nice dig too.) Oh one minor thing that I don't think anyone will bring up. In a Quasar story years ago, Watchers all started dropping dead from this mystery disease. It later turned out that the virus wasn't biological, it was a theory based disease. (Essentially the Watchers started realizing that the act of Watching changes an event. So by Watching they were interfering. As a result Watchers entered into a paradox loop and started killing themselves.) Quasar then made the argument that Watchers dying necessitated other beings intervening so that too was interfering. Since the Watchers were damned if they do and damned if they don't, they may as well Watch since there will always be SOME level of interference. At which point one of the dead Watchers stands up and basically says "the human raises a good point." and then the other Watchers just come back to life. Because for Cosmic beings like them, dead is more of a State of Mind then a permanent thing. I can't see the story ending like this, but it would be funny.
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May 29, 2014 21:27
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Gavok posted:I can see why people are predicting Fury, but I can't help but shake the gut feeling that it's Bucky. He's got the skills to pull it off and I feel that he's about done as a hero in the publication sense. His solo run fizzled out and all he really has going for him is a team comic that isn't exactly setting the world on fire. He doesn't have much going on, so you might as well make him a bad guy. Well done Gavok. You successfully predicted this way back on the 9th of May. OR did you just access the information from the Watcher's Eyeball when you stole it? Prediction: Gavok is the real killer.
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Jun 4, 2014 18:21
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TwoPair posted:I wonder if there's any significance to the fact that they're all gamma-irradiated. Like, gamma specifically rather than just a vague "these bullets are radioactive". I don't really know Hulk's rogues gallery outside of Abomination, is there anybody even tangentially related to Banner who could be a sniper? Yeah at first I was thinking of General Ross (currently Red Hulk) or Glen Talbot (currently dead, I think. Jeph Loeb seemed to screw up Greg Pakk's plan.) But now that you have mentioned this, it's made me think of one figure we have all overlooked. Someone who possesses a wide knowledge of the Marvel Universe. Someone who has been trained by Captain America, and in so doing has acquired the combat skills needed for this plan. Someone who is familiar with travelling through dimensions and has regularly dealt with monsters. And someone who is very familiar with Gamma Radiation. I of course speak of....Rick Jones!
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Jun 8, 2014 21:43
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Metal Loaf posted:I believe Michelinie and Layton introduced the idea of Tony befriending Banner and feeling an obligation to help him back in 1980 or so, but I don't think it was ever really a big thing. Yeah Layton and Michelinie were the first guys to ever do a Bruce Banner and Tony Stark crossover during their run, but other's took up on that idea. The 1990's Ironman cartoon had a Hulk based episode (though I don't think the Hulk cartoon had an Ironman episode.) Bruce Jones run on Hulk (long and dull though it was) had an arc focused around Tony and Bruce. Jeph Loeb and Tim Sale actually already did the "Tony Stark was involved in the Gamma Bomb Project" in his Hulk: Grey series. The other big writer to do a Tony and Bruce crossover was Warren Ellis in the Ultimate Universe, I think it was called Ultimate Human. He had the single best line about their dynamic. "Ironman is science gone right. The Hulk is science gone wrong."
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Jun 27, 2014 14:07
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PaybackJack posted:I think we can deduce some of what makes Thor unworthy with some assumptions. Nah you see, I think this is a psychosomatic thing. I understand where you are coming from as a lot of bad, cocky assholes have tried to wield Mjolnor and failed but I think it was because deep down they knew they weren't worthy. And or Mjolnor sort of reads a persons mind/past to determine it. For example, Dr. Doom well and truly believed he was going to wield Mjolnor in the run up to Civil War, but as soon as he tried and failed to pick it up he was pretty much all "I really thought I could do it." When it comes to Thor, during Dan Jurgen's "The Reigning" Thor loses the ability to wield Mjolnor after seemingly killing Jake Olson. And Mjolnor is left in New York, until his Son Magni starts rocking it. But at the end of the story when he has to fight Super Mega Destroyer, he realizes the reason he stopped being able to wield Mjolnor was he stopped believing he was worthy based on what he had been doing. So I think belief is a huge part of it. Thor currently believes he is unworthy and will have to undertake some quest to purge that belief. As for what the whisper was, I'm sure it was "Sif only SAID she was 18."
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Aug 14, 2014 13:37
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Unmature posted:Why are we assuming the Watcher's physiology is anything like a human's. They really aren't. Even by the story, Watcher is shot in the brain, has an eye gouged out and he still is alive. And way back during Quasar, Watchers all started dropping dead as a result of the idea spreading among their race that the act of Watching constitutes an interference. And they just died. Then when Quasar argued that even dying like that was interfering and that they may as well live, all the Dead Watchers just willed themselves back to life. As that's a thing they can do. Point is, Watcher's physiology is truly beyond mortal beings understanding.
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Aug 14, 2014 21:53
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While Galactus is supposed to be one of the only entities from the previous universe to have survived (there is a theory that the person who became Eternity was someone Galactus knew in the previous universe. Like a teacher or someone. And I think the Celestials were rumoured to be all the dead crewmen who joined Galan in his last voyage.) he spent a couple of million years of the Universe's beginning inside a cosmic egg before he emerged. So while Galactus was there first, civilisations rose while he gestated. That's why the Watcher's can say that they were present at his birth.
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Aug 16, 2014 01:57
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I really liked the Guardians tie in. McGuiness art fits and it actually feels like the logical progression. The Nova tie in hints at what happens to the Corps. I think they dove en mass into the Cancer verse to rescue Dick Ryder.
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Aug 28, 2014 11:31
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I recently re-read New Avengers, just sticking to the New Avenger's issues. The Infinity issues make next to no sense when read on their own, if you hadn't read the main Infinity series. So I'd say Original Sin will have that as an advantage over Infinity. But Infinity was a fantastic story line.
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Sep 4, 2014 19:24
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Senor Candle posted:I would say most series wouldn't make much sense if you only read every third issue of a story line. I'll stop derailing here but I'd be happy to yell at you all more about this if you want to take it to the Avengers thread. Done, over in the Avengers thread.
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Sep 4, 2014 20:31
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Aphrodite posted:Skyfall definitely says it's not. Firstly Skyfall is absolutely one of the worst Bond movies of all time. Like, as much as people mock Die Another Day for having a car that turns invisible, Skyfall has parts that are as stupid and intelligent insulting. And, what's worse, they are smug about it. They are actively saying "all those other films are dumb baby films and not super realistic like us." And then they will have scenes where the badguy can perfectly drops trains on James Bond. Second, Skyfall (if you chose to look for it) has material that support the Bond as codename material. (How Q, M and Moneypenny are all made seem like they are taking over a named role that had been occupied before.) The stuff with Bond and his ancestral home can also be fan wanked if you go with the theory that Bond's father was himself a previous James Bond who was granted a new identity by MI-6 when he retired and he went and raised his son to be the next generation of James Bond. But anyway, that's neither here nor there. The worst part (and it is the absolute worst part) about Nick Fury Jr is he is normally brought in as a soldier with some experience but not the same baggage as old Nick Fury. So they can have a one eyed super spy. Fine. But often most writers don't care, and just clearly write him as the old Nick Fury with plenty of crazy old, grizzled adventures under his belt. The Question IRL fucked around with this message at 01:25 on Sep 5, 2014 |
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Sep 5, 2014 01:22
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muscles like this? posted:I think the issue was that Fury was taking preemptive action. So he was killing people/things before they actually did anything wrong. Yeah, he was going around killing people/ monsters/ aliens/ gods for just making threats, not even waiting for them to take actions. He even showed that he was willing to kill people who he just considered might be threats. Like he was prepared to kill a rookie Spider-Man, before he had a change of mind. Who knows how many potential heroes he decided to gun down? The Original Sins issue where he talks to Duggan perfectly sums up how messed up what Fury was doing.
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Sep 6, 2014 00:33
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wiegieman posted:Come on, he was literally bursting trough invasion portals before shooting the guys who were saying "okay it's time to invade Earth right now, everyone get your invasion lunches packed." He had a pretty good reason. Oh, I'm not saying most of them weren't justified. It's just the one where the Moloids lead him down to shoot the big monster underground because he was talking about how he'd like to smash New York, I see as symptomatic of how he was loosing it. Shooting the general to an army that is about to cross a boarder, dodgy but I can understand. Busting into someone's house because their neighbours thought they heard him say "I'm so mad, I could kill someone.", that's kind of terrifying. Then you had the examples of him being prepared to cap Spider-Man, simply because he'd been getting bad press coverage.
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Sep 6, 2014 09:14
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galagazombie posted:I personally think Marvel doesn't even know what made Thor unworthy yet. Someone just thought it would be "cool" and they'll come up with the reason later like they did with Brand New Day. I'm willing to give Aaron the benefit of the doubt on this one. In the letters page of Thor 25 he talks a bit about what is coming up in future Thor issues. Not just the Malekith and the war of Realms stuff, but also Galactus: Butcher of Worlds. He also specifically says that not only will the book focus on the new Thor (who is she etc...) but that it would also focus on Thor Odinson and what Nick Fury said to him and about being Unworthy and what that means. It might not instantly be revealed in like issue 1, but if one of the themes of the book is about worthiness and what can make you lose that title, then Aaron must have it planned what has been said. As for Original Sin Thor/Loki, I really liked how it ended. Not just Thor looking at Mjolnor before going off to track down the Watcher's murderer (oh foreshadowing.) but how the badguy well and truly lost. At the heart of the story, Old Loki set all this in motion because he's a dick. He remembered how in his time Thor and Angela find out about their parentage during a crossover and bond etc.. So Old Loki decides to change this by giving Thor hints, warning people and he basically makes Thor go into Heavenheim as an aggressor and so he and Angela meet on the field of battle. Only while fighting happens they more or less leave on better terms. Loki's meddling ends up preventing on a future War he had been counting on. (A nice lesson on how Time Travel and interfering with the past can take away nice stuff too and isn't just for stopping robot apocalypses.) And the coolest part? Odin telling his children he loves them, even (young) Loki. And how furious this made Old Loki because Odin never said he loved him.
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Sep 18, 2014 12:00
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SirDan3k posted:The Murderweapon Loki is the biggest most obvious unfired chekhov's gun in the Thor line that could make Thor doubt himself enough to stop himself from lifting the hammer. Like every other time Thor has lost the hammer it's not about actually being unworthy it's about him considering himself unworthy. Actually, I had a thought about this last week when I was re-reading Infinity. What if Nick Fury said to Thor "When you went to negotiate with the Builders and you struck him down? Your action ultimately killed more people than it saved."
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Sep 19, 2014 09:09
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Soonmot posted:He's a viking, I don't think he cares as long as the outcome was righteous. I'm not sure about that. Plenty of ancient cultures (dating back to the Greeks and even further) have always gone with the moral of "you don't strike down someone after you've raised a banner of peace." Don't shoot the messanger and all that. Now, I can understand why Thor killed the Builder after meeting them unarmed. (As Cap ordered him to, it was a vital move to spark a universal uprising, it brought about the end to a galactic war, etc...) But if Thor learned that act didn't even save the number of lives he thought it would then really it becomes a cowardly act of striking down a foe from behind and not through honourable combat.
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Sep 19, 2014 11:00
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