UKMT May: Elections! (which won't fix anything)

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > UKMT May: Elections! (which won't fix anything)

cormac: Dec 18, 2005

SybilVimes posted:

(and technically, it could be argued that all Irish are british still).

Go on then, I dare you.

# ¿ May 24, 2014 21:10

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# ¿ May 10, 2024 08:26

cormac: Dec 18, 2005

Mister Adequate posted:

We're from the British Isles ergo we're British.

There, not hard, was it? I don't agree and that analyses will incur all kinds of non-geography-based unhappiness due to the implications of being called "British", but it is factually true.

"British" refers to the island of Great Britain.

Edit: Canadians, Mexicans, Guatamalans, Brazilians and Peruvians etc. are from the Americas therefore they are American.

cormac fucked around with this message at 21:48 on May 24, 2014

# ¿ May 24, 2014 21:45

cormac: Dec 18, 2005

ThomasPaine posted:

It incorporates elements of both. There's no way around the fact that Ireland is part of the British Isles, and that Irish is therefore a subset of British in the same way Manx is. I'm not saying it's ever used and I'm aware that the political dimension makes it a deeply controversial term for some, but that doesn't change geographic fact.

For example Spaniards and (nationalist) Catalonians would both consider themselves Iberian, despite the fact that they consider themselves distinct nationally. That's not an issue because the terms are different, but if the Iberian peninsula was called the 'Spanish Peninsula' there'd surely be an aversion to a Catalonian describing themselves as Spanish despite its geographic truth. That's all that's happened in the British Isles - the major political entity has informally taken the name of the geographical region and therefore made it an unpopular term by association with the more minor ones. That doesn't stop the fact that it's true - just as a Catalonian is an Iberian, an Irishman is, in the most technical sense, British.

fake edit: I guess it would be possible to identify 'British' with the island of 'Great Britain', rather than the 'British Isles', and that's likely what is usually done. Still, in the strictest and most pedantic terms my point stands.

British

Pronunciation: ˈbrɪtɪʃ
ADJECTIVE
Relating to Great Britain or the United Kingdom, or to its people or language

cormac posted:

Canadians, Mexicans, Guatamalans, Brazilians and Peruvians etc. are from the Americas therefore they are American.

# ¿ May 24, 2014 22:37

cormac: Dec 18, 2005

StoneOfShame posted:

I would argue that a nation is a perceived community associated with a geographical area that it may or may not exist within. For example The Falklands are clearly not geographically part of The British Isles yet the people who live there perceive a distinct cultural belonging to Britain so they can describe themselves as British.

The reason Ireland becomes complex is there is a disconnect in feeling as to whether or not the borders are legitimate along with a cultural disconnect with both the mainland and the Republic. Hence the slow emergence of people who consider their nationality to be Northern Irish.

There's also the fact that the Republic of Ireland is neither on the island of Britain, nor part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, but an entirely separate country on an entirely separate island.

StoneOfShame posted:

mainland

I think I'm about to have a stroke.

# ¿ May 24, 2014 23:09

cormac: Dec 18, 2005

StoneOfShame posted:

What you said is technically correct but it doesn't say anything about the fact that the issue of nationality is increasingly complex in Northern Ireland (I should perhaps of clarified that I was referring to the island of Ireland when I said Ireland). Northern Ireland has a political border link with Britain but in a geographic sense is closer to the Republic, an interesting case would be Derry where it could be argued that half of the city is in the South but it is part of the UK. Combined with the fact that both community groups are increasingly finding difficulties in finding cultural similarities with the nationalities they traditionally considered themselves. Hence as I said the emergence of a Northern Irish nationality.

This all comes from an assertion that all Irish people could be considered British. Northern Ireland is a seperate issue entirely, but I guarantee you that the overwhelming majority of people from the Republic will be very loving quick indeed to remind you that they aren't British.

Edit: IT's not "technically" correct, it's just flat out correct.

StoneOfShame posted:

I don't see why you had a problem with my use of mainland, it was used as colloquialism I often hear in Northern Ireland and was not meant to have any political connotations, its used by people from both groups.

It drives people mental down here, and will do so in parts of Northern Ireland too.

# ¿ May 25, 2014 00:02

cormac: Dec 18, 2005

Hungry posted:

I know an Estonian guy who once referred in conversation to a group of friends including myself as "you Brits". Irish mate of mine nearly bit his head off.

"Yeah but technically isn't it all the same-"

"No."

That doesn't really bother me so much, after all Estonia is loving miles away. I wouldn't expect someone from there to be familiar with the cultural sensitivities surrounding the relationship between Britain and Ireland. I mean I'd point out how he was wrong, but wouldn't be angry or even particularly surprised.

I so find it incredible that people from the U.K. still don't understand why Irish people are so sensitive about being claimed as "kind of British really though" after 90 odd years of independence.

This article was originally titled 20 best British novels of all time. People went loving bananas over it here, so it got changed after a few hours, but if you read the comments there's a good number of people who can't understand why people from Ireland would object to Flann O'Brien or John Banville being claimed as British. They called Katie Taylor British when she won gold in the London Olympics too. It happens all the loving time, I remember watching Barry Mcguigan winning a world title when I was a kid and the BBC claiming him as British, funny how he was Irish again as soon as he loving lost though.

I think Brenda Fricker said it best "When you are lying drunk at the airport you're Irish. When you win an Oscar you're British"

# ¿ May 25, 2014 00:27

cormac: Dec 18, 2005

bob holness paradox posted:

It's only legitimate if you view 'British Isles' as a valid term that is not contested by the Republic of Ireland and its citizens.

It's only legitimate if you redefine the meaning of the word British. The republic is neither a part of the United Kingdom, or the Island of Britain. It's citizens aren't from the island of Britain, or the United Kingdom. The Island may or may not be a part of the British Isles, depending on who you ask, but the people aren't the loving Island. Jesus.

# ¿ May 25, 2014 17:42

cormac: Dec 18, 2005

ThomasPaine posted:

Aren't they?

Is someone identifying as Boston Irish still Irish?

People can self-identify as whatever they want, it's none of my business. I don't get to decide.

What I object to, is someone else deciding for me that, regardless of my own feelings on the matter, or our near century of independence, or the actual meaning of words, I and everyone else in Ireland, are, somehow, still British.

# ¿ May 25, 2014 18:06

cormac: Dec 18, 2005

ThomasPaine posted:

You're right that they're still culturally derived from Irish (with huge influences from the US). I'd dispute the idea that they're still politically Irish or the idea that they have any right to interfere in Irish political matters. They're a mongrel culture with a significant element of that drawn from Irish culture, but they're not 'Irish' in any meaningful sense.

You don't get to decide these things.

ThomasPaine posted:

What I was actually getting at is it's wrong to suggest that 'Irish' in strict sense is an ethnicity,

I never once mentioned ethnicity.

ThomasPaine posted:

rather it's a political identification dependent upon usual residency in Ireland.

So Roy Keane isn't Irish any more then? I'll let you tell him.

# ¿ May 25, 2014 18:14

cormac: Dec 18, 2005

ThomasPaine posted:

Why not?

Seriously? Well, for the same reason that the BNP or UKIP don't get to decide who's really British.

ThomasPaine posted:

You're suggesting that every person who self identifies as 'Irish' in the whole world should be accepted as a member of that political community and entitled to vote etc? Clearly that's a ridiculous idea.

Citizenship and identity aren't the same thing.

# ¿ May 25, 2014 18:21

cormac: Dec 18, 2005

ThomasPaine posted:

And I'm not trying to argue about who is 'really Irish' because that doesn't make any sense.

Ummm

ThomasPaine posted:

They're a mongrel culture with a significant element of that drawn from Irish culture, but they're not 'Irish' in any meaningful sense.

ThomasPaine posted:

On a purely neutral geographical level though, it is possible.

Only if you redefine the meaning of the word "British". The word "British" refers to the island of Britain, which Ireland isn't a part of, or to the United Kingdom, which the Republic of Ireland also isn't a part of.

The name of the archipelago on which we live is irrelevant.

ThomasPaine posted:

While 'British Isles' remains in common use, it is absolutely possible to consider an Irish person British in that they are an inhabitant of the geograhic British Isles.

See above.

ThomasPaine posted:

because of the general acceptance of the term 'British isles' in the UK/rest of the world many would be baffled by an aggressive reaction to it.

People in the UK would be baffled by an Irish person objecting to being described as British?

Are you serious?

# ¿ May 25, 2014 18:53

cormac: Dec 18, 2005

Mister Adequate posted:

Oh Christ there's people still pissy about the Irish derail. Look, it's been explained very clearly that it is a pedantic technical definition. I agree completely that it is a pedantic technical definition. I think that it would be extraordinarily unwise to try to use the pedantic technical definition because the word has political and cultural connotations that massively outweigh the technical geographic one.

That doesn't change that the technical and pedantic definition is the one that was specifically asked for and that it is factually true. It's like kippers getting pissy about being called European. They might not like the connotation, they might not think we should be a part of Europe politically, but it doesn't change the geographical fact that this archipelago is a part of Europe.

Transwomen are just men who cut their cocks off.

They might not like it but it's a pedantic technical definition.

# ¿ May 25, 2014 18:56

cormac: Dec 18, 2005

ThomasPaine posted:

All you're doing is twisting the argument by using an even more emotionally charged subject in order to make it impossible to maintain the argument without coming off as an rear end.

You don't need my help there chief.

Edit: To clarify: I have pointed out several times that this argument relies on redefining the meaning of the word British. The word british does not and never has refer to the island of Ireland. It refers to the U.K. and the island of Britain. Nothing else. The idea that being a part of the British Isles makes Ireland British is factually incorrect, and has no basis in reality. People from the Republic of Ireland, generally speaking, are not British. Most of us would find the suggestion that we are pretty loving offensive for reasons which should be entirely obvious to anybody who has the slightest bit of knowledge on the subject.

cormac fucked around with this message at 19:15 on May 25, 2014

# ¿ May 25, 2014 19:06

cormac: Dec 18, 2005

staberind posted:

Perhaps this will come as a shock to you, but your little derail is as pointless as it's boring.

tl;dr? : No One Cares.

But someone is wrong on the internet!

# ¿ May 25, 2014 19:18

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# ¿ May 10, 2024 08:26

cormac: Dec 18, 2005

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# ¿ May 31, 2014 17:30

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