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Based on the vote count I don't think Geese is that far off. There's a lot to be said for how much the Liberals mobilized fence-sitters or Liberals who otherwise would have stayed at home by whipping up opposition to the Conservatives or how much Conservatives scared the poo poo out of people. It's not a slam dunk case of "NDP alienated their own".
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Jun 17, 2014 18:15
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Heavy neutrino posted:The funny thing is that while marxist terminology is verboten in any sort of political speech, it's literally all over insider business literature. I'm serious; pick up your average financial/business publication, turn the page to an article that's obviously not meant to be read by the layman, and marvel at how much of the vocabulary is lifted from Das Kapital. That's not surprising; unlike the propaganda that passes for modern "economics" these days Marx actually knew what he was talking about.
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Jun 17, 2014 18:34
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RBC posted:The NDP platform was more progressive than the liberal party in these areas specifically: They had no plan to pay for their platform, and the last item is regressive. tagesschau fucked around with this message at 19:48 on Jun 17, 2014 |
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Jun 17, 2014 19:43
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tagesschau posted:They had no plan to pay for these, and the last item is regressive. Yeah, but when the Liberals do it it's just because they're trying to get elected, it's different when the NDP does it because they're being progressive. infernal machines fucked around with this message at 19:54 on Jun 17, 2014 |
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Jun 17, 2014 19:47
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tagesschau posted:They had no plan to pay for their platform, and the last item is regressive. I don't agree. Poorer households spend a higher proportion of income on Hydro. It has a more significant impact for them.
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Jun 17, 2014 19:55
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RBC posted:I don't agree. Poorer households spend a higher proportion of income on Hydro. It has a more significant impact for them. Then why not address the cost of hydro rather than trying to remove the tax?
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Jun 17, 2014 20:01
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infernal machines posted:Then why not address the cost of hydro rather than trying to remove the tax? Yeah that would be cool, and it's too bad no parties came up with any kind of plan to do that for low income peoples.
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Jun 17, 2014 20:22
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RBC posted:Yeah that would be cool, and it's too bad no parties came up with any kind of plan to do that for low income peoples. It is too bad, and it would have been a good part of an actual progressive platform. Focusing on the tax as the problem rather than the root cause (hydro being expensive) looks a lot more like "government is the problem" neoliberal crap. When you put that along side the focus on waste in government (anti-gravy minister), the repeated use of terms like "job creators", and the refusal to increase taxes to pay for their platform or needed infrastructure. Well, you can see where the complaints about a "rightward shift" are coming from.
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Jun 17, 2014 20:31
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infernal machines posted:It is too bad, and it would have been a good part of an actual progressive platform. But being against the HST has been a key part of the NDP both federally and provincially for a long time, and rightly so because it's a regressive tax and it transfers tax burdens from businesses to people. It's not exactly a new development. My problem is not really with criticisms about the NDP being lovely but with the narrative that the liberals have somehow become a more progressive alternative. It's bullshit. I would stay home before I vote for the liberals. Or vote communist or socialist if there was a candidate in my riding.
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Jun 17, 2014 20:38
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infernal machines posted:It is too bad, and it would have been a good part of an actual progressive platform. Well, the NDP did pledge to increase the general corporate tax rate from 11.5% to 12.5% so there was at least one tax increase planned, but I think they downplayed that a lot. It was the headline in most media the day the NDP revealed the platform and then it just kind of went away.
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Jun 17, 2014 20:39
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Leofish posted:Well, the NDP did pledge to increase the general corporate tax rate from 11.5% to 12.5% so there was at least one tax increase planned, but I think they downplayed that a lot. It was the headline in most media the day the NDP revealed the platform and then it just kind of went away. It was also shown that it wouldn't have even begun to cover the costs of their platform, notwithstanding the loss of HST revenue from hydro.
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Jun 17, 2014 20:46
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RBC posted:I don't agree. Poorer households spend a higher proportion of income on Hydro. It has a more significant impact for them. While you're right, that doesn't mean the move isn't regressive. Not unlike the Bush tax cuts, the NDP's proposed HST cut disproportionately goes towards the wealthy, and it would have taken about 30 extra minutes to design a plan wherein the bulk of the cut would be targeted at lower income people. The NDP decided they couldn't be assed to do it for one reason or another (I'm guessing a penchant for simplicity of message over good policy), and they got rightly slammed for it.
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Jun 17, 2014 21:00
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RBC posted:I don't agree. Poorer households spend a higher proportion of income on Hydro. It has a more significant impact for them. tagesschau posted:The actual progressive solution is to increase the amount of HST rebates, and possibly the income threshold therefor. Removing the provincial portion of HST (a whopping 7.1% discount) gives me enough to get an extra coffee and donut at Tim Hortons about every six weeks, but it gives my in-laws, who make more money and use more electricity because their home is larger, much more than that.
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Jun 17, 2014 21:05
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Right and you also pay the same proportion of taxes on your hydro as high income earners even though hydro is a necessary service. So what are you going to do? You're complaining about an already regressive tax being eliminated because it's a regressive tax cut? That makes very little sense to me. It's like arguing a flat tax shouldn't be removed because the cut helps the rich more than the poor. You're looking at the trees and not the forest.
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Jun 17, 2014 21:13
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RBC posted:Right and you also pay the same proportion of taxes on your hydro as high income earners even though hydro is a necessary service. So what are you going to do? No; we're arguing that the HST on hydro should be made progressive, which is like arguing that a flat tax should be made progressive. Still, the argument you're making is dubious -- it's not immediately clear that low income earners would benefit more from the lower amount of HST that they're paying, themselves, than they benefit from the re-distribution of the amount of HST that the wealthy are paying.
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Jun 17, 2014 21:24
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Heavy neutrino posted:No; we're arguing that the HST on hydro should be made progressive, which is like arguing that a flat tax should be made progressive. It makes more sense to simply integrate these revenues into income tax by changing rates than trying to fiddle with a consumption tax on energy to make it progressive. Administratively it saves money, it elimates all this confusion we're going through right now, and it will be more progressive long term. Eliminating consumption taxes on essential services like energy, groceries, housing, will always be a progressive move because poorer people spend more of their income on these things than the rich. It's a basic truth about progressive taxation that you're trying to argue against here.
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Jun 17, 2014 21:32
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RBC posted:It makes more sense to simply integrate these revenues into income tax by changing rates than trying to fiddle with a consumption tax on energy to make it progressive. Administratively it saves money, it elimates all this confusion we're going through right now, and it will be more progressive long term. Eliminating consumption taxes on essential services like energy, groceries, housing, will always be a progressive move because poorer people spend more of their income on these things than the rich. It's a basic truth about progressive taxation that you're trying to argue against here. This is true, rebates are only useful to people who have the money to afford the thing in the first place. For many low income people, living paycheque to paycheque, having a rebate come tax time doesn't make the choice between keeping the lights on or buying food any easier.
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Jun 17, 2014 21:51
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Rebates have their place, don't get me wrong. If the ndp wanted to be really progressive on energy costs all they would have to do is bump up the trillium benefit. This combined with cutting the hst out on hydro, and a raise on income tax for the 79k+ bracket would be amazing.
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Jun 17, 2014 22:48
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Every single NDP post-election talking point in one convenient article! http://www.nowtoronto.com/news/story.cfm?content=198502
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Jun 18, 2014 00:05
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If you are renting a basement in someone's house, unless they've bothered to get a separate meter, removing HST from hydro passes 100% of the savings on to your landlord.RBC posted:Eliminating consumption taxes on essential services like energy, groceries, housing, will always be a progressive move because poorer people spend more of their income on these things than the rich. Raising the HST rebate to account for the HST in hydro and gas bills for a typical person's consumption of these products would do exactly this. Poking more holes in the HST is a great way to undermine the benefits of a VAT.
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Jun 18, 2014 00:21
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infernal machines posted:Every single NDP post-election talking point in one convenient article! quote:Watch for full-blown strategic voting mania to sell us Justin Trudeau during the next federal tilt, even with the NDP firmly in second place.  Federally, the NDP has polled consistently in third place for more than a year now.
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Jun 18, 2014 00:26
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Of course, it was the NDP backlash against Horwath's "Bare-knuckles campaigning" that scared moderates away from the NDP. Rather than moderates not-at-all being scared off and picking up a bunch of typically-non-NDP seats. Honourable mention goes to "Tea Party politics of the Mike Harris era". Doopliss fucked around with this message at 01:29 on Jun 18, 2014 |
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Jun 18, 2014 01:02
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I posted the article because I'm surprised at how hard this is being spun as everyone else's fault. Was it was fear mongering and strategic voting? Torontonians being too effete to handle Horwath's rough and tumble style? Torontonians not being true progressives after all? I love that he managed to include "we didn't want the balance of power anyway", while simultaneously speculating that the really progressive elements of the budget that Horwath shot down now won't get enacted as the Liberals will hold on to them for the next politically opportune moment. The whole thing is completely daft, and yet perfectly mirrors every single talking point I've seen here and on other sites.
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Jun 18, 2014 01:13
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gently caress the balance of power, we got like 5% more votes! Go team!
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Jun 18, 2014 03:06
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I am seeing reports on the twitter sphere that a late night meeting is happening in Horwaths office with all the ndp mpps. Anyone else hear this?
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Jun 18, 2014 04:12
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bunnyofdoom posted:I am seeing reports on the twitter sphere that a late night meeting is happening in Horwaths office with all the ndp mpps. Anyone else hear this? I dearly want to believe that the Ontario Liberals have a spherical projection of trending OnPoli tweets in the war room, called the twitter sphere.
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Jun 18, 2014 04:18
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infernal machines posted:I dearly want to believe that the Ontario Liberals have a spherical projection of trending OnPoli tweets in the war room, called the twitter sphere. Yeah. At LPC we have a full holodeck.
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Jun 18, 2014 04:22
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RBC posted:Well, I don't believe that. The liberals were trying to get elected and made a lot of left sounding promises like they always do, along with a lot of their usual corporate welfare and business friendly crap. The NDP platform was pretty lame but being boring or communicating using words you don't like doesn't make the party less progressive. There was a lot of corporate welfare garbage in their platform that sucked but it was the same poo poo the liberals were into so I fail to see how that makes them the less progressive choice. One thing on this is that these aren't the policies Horwath was actually campaigning on (except the HST cut). She was spending all her time and energy and money talking about either liberal corruption or her populist policies like auto insurance, the HST, the gravy train minister, or the job creators. What that means is a) the people who don't actually read the NDP platform, which is the overwhelming majority of voters, don't know that Horwath has these policies in her platform, and therefore voted for her based on the right-wing populist policies she spent all her time talking about; and b) she's establishing a situation where in a minority government (because let's face it, there was literally zero chance of the NDP winning a majority in this election) she would have to choose what to spend her limited political capital on, and using it to implement progressive policies that she never mentioned would be harder than using it to implement the stupid poo poo she actually campaigned on. Frankly, given the campaign she ran, I don't believe for one second that Horwath's first legislative proposals would be raising the minimum wage and corporate tax rates rather than cutting HST and auto insurance. Furthermore, you're leaving out the parts of the Liberal platform that were more progressive than the NDP. The way your post is framed makes it sound like the NDP are more progressive than the Liberals on these matters, and equally as progressive on all other ones, which isn't true. Two big policies that the Liberals actually talked about as well as including in their budget and platform are an increased tax rate on the wealthy (people making over $150,000 per year) and the Ontario Retirement Plan, both of which are progressive policies and neither of which Horwath wanted to do. Wynne also talked about expanding the public service rather than having a gravy train minister to cut it back. These policies may well get implemented over the next four years (the tax raise on the wealthy was in the Liberal budget, so it will probably be implemented within a few weeks), and almost certainly would not have been under a Horwath government. Finally, rhetoric matters. Trajectory matters. Remember (again) that the vast majority of voters don't read the party platforms. If you don't read the platforms but just pay attention to the leaders' rhetoric, you had one leader running a hard-right campaign about slashing the size of government (Hudak), one running a mild populist campaign about saving the middle class money (Horwath) and one running a left-wing campaign about expanding the size of government and its role for social justice and welfare (Wynne). if the NDP had actually succeeded in this election by running talking about right-wing things, all that does is encourage our political window to move further to the right, because it shows that ignoring your left-wing base and moving to the right is a successful electoral strategy (whether because your base votes for you anyway as the lesser of three evils, or because you gain more votes than you lose, actually doesn't matter). Instead, what this election showed is that moving to the left is a viable electoral strategy, and rebuked both the hard-right and the populist candidates. The Liberals moved from centre-right rhetoric under McGuinty to centre-left rhetoric under Wynne, and it won them a majority. The other two parties moved to the right, and lost all power in the legislature. If we're lucky, this can contribute to moving our political window a little bit back to the left. And that is really really important.
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Jun 18, 2014 06:42
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bunnyofdoom posted:Yeah. At LPC we have a full holodeck. computer: delete safeties
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Jun 18, 2014 06:55
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The problem for me in voting for Wynne is that the financials were fine, she brought the discussion left (and allowed me to punish the ONDP's terrible election strategy), but I REALLY wanted some daylight in transparency initiatives.
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Jun 18, 2014 13:09
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Tim Hudak to quit July 2 amid Tory revolt quote:Hudak on Wednesday informed his furious caucus mates via email that he will resign as of July 2 because “a significant number” of Tory MPPs believe he can’t continue. That would have been loving beautiful to see. They need to get rid of Timmy and scrap the whole brain trust. quote:When another MPP confided to him that “90 per cent of the caucus thinks you should go,” Hudak apparently shot back: “I don’t care if 100 per cent of caucus wanted me to go, I wouldn’t.” 
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Jun 19, 2014 11:43
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NDP went too far right and wasn’t ready for election, defeated veterans sayquote:“I don’t think we were ready. We should have been fast off the mark with our platform. Instead we took a lot of heat at the door because we defeated a budget without any prospect of our own.”  I guess the NDP plan bring down the government and then magically win the election because GAS PLANTS GAS PLANTS GAS PLANTS. Still amazing to me that they caused the election but were completely unprepared for it.
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Jun 19, 2014 11:47
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CAPTAIN CAPSLOCK posted:Tim Hudak to quit July 2 amid Tory revolt I'll miss Tim Hudak's insane ideas. I hope his staff stays on and advises whoever the next leader of the party is.
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Jun 19, 2014 11:58
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CAPTAIN CAPSLOCK posted:NDP went too far right and wasn’t ready for election, defeated veterans say I mean, we all knew it, but I still can't believe it took a post-mortem on their campaign for the NDP to come to that conclusion.
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Jun 19, 2014 13:10
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CAPTAIN CAPSLOCK posted:NDP went too far right and wasn’t ready for election, defeated veterans say I keep thinking about the hypothetical scenario where the ONDP had voted against last year's budget, which would have been much sooner after the gas-plant scandal and when Ornge and eHealth were more on people's minds. As well, Wynne wouldn't have had an extra year to push her own agenda and distance herself from McGuinty. If they had voted against the budget and had a solid plan (you know, like a plan that Wynne proposed in this year's budget) I think they would have done much better - minimum they would have become the opposition in a Liberal minority government. That of course assumes Hudak would have torpedoed his own campaign a year ago. Which he most certainly would have.
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Jun 19, 2014 13:17
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JohnnyCanuck posted:I mean, we all knew it, but I still can't believe it took a post-mortem on their campaign for the NDP to come to that conclusion. I wouldn't have been surprised if they'd come to the conclusion that the blame actually lies with some mixture of condo dwellers, people who aren't truly progressive, and the Liberals.
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Jun 19, 2014 13:27
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tagesschau posted:I wouldn't have been surprised if they'd come to the conclusion that the blame actually lies with some mixture of condo dwellers, people who aren't truly progressive, and the Liberals. If the Liberals had just not had policies that appealed to voters we would have won a majority! 
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Jun 19, 2014 14:12
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CAPTAIN CAPSLOCK posted:NDP went too far right and wasn’t ready for election, defeated veterans say It's almost as though every suspicion NDP voters in this thread had was dead on? The difference between the NDP and the PCs is that I think the PCs will learn from this election and apply it to the next.
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Jun 19, 2014 14:28
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CAPTAIN CAPSLOCK posted:Tim Hudak to quit July 2 amid Tory revolt The worst part about this is we missed a chance to see Hudak punched in the face when he handed out his "pink-slips". That by the way is the best case scenario of what happened in that. We should also let it sink in that we got the "good" version of the OPC campaign. PK loving SUBBAN posted:It's almost as though every suspicion NDP voters in this thread had was dead on? Given the stories about the PCs this was them holding back from what they really planned.
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Jun 19, 2014 14:38
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Way to live up to the stereotypes it seems. 1. NDP not prepared. 2. Conservatives more like this picture than they were letting on:  3. Liberals... what's their stereotype?
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Jun 19, 2014 14:49
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