Louie season 4 - "Can you not say dirty sex poop"

The Something Awful Forums > The Finer Arts > TV IV > Louie season 4 - "Can you not say dirty sex poop"

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

I love when Louie gets surrealistic. Everything from overt poo poo like the weird parking sign, the garbagemen, and the girl taking off in a helicopter, all the way to the really subtle ones like newsanchors having names like Fappy Howserton.

# ¿ May 9, 2014 01:56

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# ¿ May 14, 2024 20:14

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

Pamela Adlon is still getting a consulting producer credit on this. Is that just a legacy thing like EP credits can be, or does she still do occasional work for the show?

I'm still a little bummed her character is gone forever.

# ¿ May 9, 2014 03:58

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

blue squares posted:

What does it say about me that during the whole fat girl monologue, all I could think was, "well, drat, if it makes your life so depressing and unfun, stop being fat, it takes like 6 months jesus christ"

If there was a treatment to become white, should black people utilize it because being white is way easier and you're treated like poo poo less often?

It's better to fight against prejudice and poor treatment than to try and make everybody conform to whatever we think is "normal" this second.

Gmaz posted:

AFAIK Pamela Adlon will have a whole multi-episode arc this season.

WOOOOOO! That's awesome!

# ¿ May 14, 2014 00:52

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

ChesterJT posted:

Can we avoid relating the centuries of racial oppression to fat girls not getting dates?

I get this a lot when I make the comparrison. What you, and several others are misinterpreting is that I'm comparing assholes to assholes, not black girls to fat girls.

It's important to point out, I believe, because most people understand treating people of color like poo poo is reprehensible. It's understandable and instantly recognized. On the other hand, many people typically don't think about their mistreatment of other groups at all. Again, the comparrison is to the existence of prejudice and its recognition; not those targeted.

So, no. I don't think there are fat person lynch mobs or that they're going to be enslaved. But I do believe that the same human pattern recognition that's kept us alive thus far also brings with it a desire to form people into groups, and treat them differently, and pointing out that this is wrong when I see it is really all I have the power to do about it.

# ¿ May 14, 2014 01:59

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

Jake Armitage posted:

Actually you are comparing the struggle of black people to the struggle of fat people whether you realize it or not. If you "get this a lot" maybe you should stop doing it because it's upsetting to sane people. I'd suggest you find another analogy that isn't this far off the mark.

If you've got a better way to wake people up to their lovely behavior, I'm all ears, and I'd appreciate it, but comparing it to something they already understand is wrong has been the single most effective method for me.

# ¿ May 14, 2014 02:49

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

nutranurse posted:

If you think comparing the poo poo minorities have to face to the poo poo that fat people have to face then I don't think you understand either issue. Educate yourself before attempting to educate others.

If you think marginalizing people because of how they look isn't comparable to marginalizing people because of how they look, then I'd argue it's you who needs to educate yourself.

# ¿ May 14, 2014 04:18

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

nutranurse posted:

Reducing the history and ramifications of racism down to "white people marginalized minorities because they looked different" in order to say "fat people also have it bad" is blatantly disregarding the:

1) Different physical realities behind racism and hating fat people: for the former your skin color/ethnicity is something you are born with, can never discard, and will always be held against you, for the latter this is not the case at all.

Hence my original point: that if it could be changed, should it? In the name of being treated better, should people change their race?

nutranurse posted:

2) Level of severity of both issues:

An issue I readily admitted when I said that I didn't think the severity was anywhere comparable.

nutranurse" posted:

3) I dunno, but race really is not at all on the same level nor in the same league nor at all in the same scope as weight/being obese

Same as point two. Not only have I already admitted that this is true, but it's entirely irrelevant to this discussion, because I am not comparing the treatment of fat people to the treatment of black people. I am comparing the prejudices that lead to poor treatment. One is examined, and one isn't. I'm comparing the examined to the unexamined so that people will examine it.

nutranurse posted:

Maybe you're white

This shouldn't matter at all, but would it make you feel if I compared fat people to queers? Because I am one of those, and historically and currently, we do get murdered simply for being ourselves, and it doesn't change my point in any way whatsoever.

If there were a treatment to turn me straight, you wouldn't be telling me that I should take it so people wouldn't treat me like poo poo. Or maybe you would, but I kind of doubt it. Yet, many say that if being fat sucks, they should just lose weight so people didn't treat them like poo poo. What about religion? Since unlike sexual orientation and race, that's also a choice, like the fat thing. Should all Jewish people convert to Christianity? That's entirely possible, realistic, and not-at-all a stretch from the "just lose weight" argument.

The point is that people are treated like poo poo because of who they are, and arguing that they should change that to fit in is a damaging, stupid narrative.

This episode of Louie had the right idea. It surfaced assumptions, and pointed out a behavior that a minority group deals with on a regular basis. I loved it so, so much.

# ¿ May 14, 2014 04:57

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

ChesterJT posted:

No one is arguing that she should change, but that she can and that's why her whole speech is a waste of time. If she's so unhappy about it she can change. It's what makes it completely different than race, gender, handicap, sexual preference, etc. You are focusing way too much on SOCIETY bullshit and ignoring the simple fact that it's her life and hers alone. Some things you don't have the power to change, some you do. I wouldn't unload on some poor woman because I hated the town I was currently living in when I had the power to move somewhere else.

And to point it out yet again, no one was treating her badly. One guy who she liked didn't find her physically attractive. That was the extent of her tragedy.

You're saying that nobody is saying she should change, then arguing that because she's unhappy, she should. Your body isn't your hometown. I will never, at any point and under any circumstances barring causing others harm, agree that it's better to change yourself than to argue for acceptance and fair treatment.

She's unhappy being fat because people treat fat people like poo poo. She shouldn't change. They should. And three people treated her badly in this episode, but even if they didn't, we got everything we needed from her speech to know that she is, in fact, treated badly.

# ¿ May 14, 2014 05:21

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

ChesterJT posted:

You complained endlessly about how they should "tone down" Craig in Parks & Rec because he gave a negative stereotype to gays on tv even though he was just being himself. Why don't you accept him for who he is?

Because he's fictional.

To carry your comparrison further, I'd be making the same argument against this show if the fat girl was a mean, bumbling oaf in real life, and was then also portrayed as such on Louie. It doesn't matter that it's a reflection of who she is in real life. It's still damaging to fat people and encourages stereotyping.

Thankfully, Louie handled treatment of a target group far better than Parks and Rec handled a gay character. It even tackled the issue of stigmatizing itself, which I wasn't expecting. I would've been perfectly happy with just having a fat character be really cool and funny.

# ¿ May 14, 2014 05:40

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

Tokelau All Star posted:

Stuff

In addition to having a great avatar and title text, this fella' says everything I'm trying to say without being incredibly divisive.

Edit: I can't help myself.

ChesterJT posted:

You complained endlessly about how they should "tone down" Craig in Parks & Rec

At no point did I ever use the words "tone down," so please don't use quotation marks like that. Craig is a gay stereotype and nothing more. That's the problem. He's loud, has a stereotypically gay accent, loves wine, demands perfection, and yells all the time. I think this is damaging, because it contributes to the notion that all gay people act like this, are the same, and are laughable. I've been very clear on this in the P&R thread and don't think this argument should be cross-threaded.

ChesterJT posted:

I don't care that Louie tried to relay a message and be serious. I don't disagree that people should be more accepting of others, but having a fat woman go on and on like she's the most oppressed person on the planet wore out it's welcome.

Nobody but you is suggesting that fat people are "the most oppressed." Simply being oppressed is enough. The severity of the act does not make it right or wrong. The act is wrong no matter the severity.

LividLiquid fucked around with this message at 06:52 on May 14, 2014

# ¿ May 14, 2014 06:41

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

nutranurse posted:

It's because he didn't make poorly thought out comparisons that distract from his point.

I asked you at one point to give me a better argument. If mine is truly damaging to my narrative, as you've suggested, and not truly as effective as it seems to me to be, I would genuinely welcome a better way to show people that marginalizing any group is just as bad as marginalizing any other group.

Do you believe this? Because I certainly hope you do, and am trying to give you the benefit of the doubt, but for all intents and purposes, it appears as if you believe that anybody who's different and is mocked for their difference, and hates being mocked, should change.

I disagree completely, and will use any narrative tool I can to show those who hold this belief how damaging their beliefs really are.

# ¿ May 14, 2014 06:57

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

Atlas Hugged posted:

Comparing being fat to being a minority is insane largely because being fat is actually unhealthy and generally caused by bad habits that you can actually pass on to the next generation whereas being a minority is only bad in so far as it is perceived as being bad. You can't actually give a rational response for disliking a race or ethnicity but there are loads of legitimate reasons to want to stress healthy living and eating habits.

Even if you could change white to black, it would be an irrelevant change done just to appease bigots, but changing fat to healthy is actually improving quality of life and life expectancy.

So you should treat people poorly because of their choices, like picking the wrong religion, but not things they were born with.

Sound reasonable?

It's simple, dude: it's wrong to treat people poorly. You're on the wrong side of this argument. I want to have the energy to make that argument in a way that would actually help you realize how damaging your rhetoric is, but I just don't have it in me right now.

# ¿ May 14, 2014 07:17

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

Atlas Hugged posted:

Fat people can actually improve themselves by becoming fit.

Minorities would only improve themselves in the eyes of assholes by changing their race.

Being black is also unhealthy, medically. It opens one up to several conditions that aren't a problem for the rest of us. Still think this is a perfectly okay line of questioning?

"Black people can actually improve themselves by becoming white."

Sound okay?

Yes. I am making this comparrison again, and yes, I do believe it is perfectly appropriate and apt.
I h
Fat people's health has nothing to do with you or what you think, nor should you or I be talking about it. This is exactly why I make the race comparrison. You think it's okay to judge one, but not the other. I'm trying to make the point that it's not okay to judge either.

Edit: Also: You do realize not all minorities (or target groups, if we're speaking technically) are race-based, right? Again: I dig dong. That makes me a target. Should I stop being who I am because it's healthier? Medically, you'd be correct. Does that make it the correct thing for me to do?

LividLiquid fucked around with this message at 07:43 on May 14, 2014

# ¿ May 14, 2014 07:36

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

Red posted:

Literally anything else but pages of debate over fat acceptance or fat shaming or comparing being fat to being gay/religious/of a certain race.

Again, nobody is doing that. At all.

# ¿ May 14, 2014 18:55

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

Red posted:

I don't want to dip back into that poo poo, but somebody was.

Yes, that is two very big examples of me saying something completely different from what it was suggested I said. Again, not comparing black women to fat women. I'm comparing assholes to assholes.

Mostly this:

massive spider posted:

It's not the fact that she's fat per se which is the issue, it's the weirdness Louie/people have about addressing it.

The central point being that everybody has a right to not be talked down to or treated like poo poo. Not just people who live up to your personal standards for whatever criteria by which you're judging them.

It doesn't matter if you're talking about race, ability, gender, or body size. You don't get to decide that because blahblahblah it's okay to be a shitbag to people or tell them to change so that they'll be treated better. The poor treatment is the problem; not its imagined "cause."

# ¿ May 15, 2014 01:44

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

ChesterJT posted:

Please have mercy, the horse died hours ago.

If you want me to stop, focus on the people arguing that it's okay to discriminate and treat people poorly.

# ¿ May 15, 2014 04:04

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

Going back to the other episode, the sense of dread I felt when the daughter stepped off the train was a testament to performance. This is a comedy show. I knew, logically, that there was a zero percent chance that something terrible would happen to her. That's not the show this is. But the performances were so convincing that the dread was still almost palpable.

Louie C.K. is pretty durn talented.

# ¿ May 15, 2014 05:53

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

Jake Armitage posted:

Not a single person was mean to her in the entire episode though. Louie was perfectly nice to her, and liked her as a person. Dave Attell was having a really friendly conversation with her, and genuinely happy for her for landing a good job. Everyone liked her, its just that no one finds her attractive for gee I wonder what reason.

The story she tells details very explicitly that tons of guys are willing to have sex with her, but none of them are willing to admit it publicly. They like her. Everybody likes her. Louie likes her. But they're all unwilling to show this to the world, because they'll be mocked for loving a fat girl.

It's a really spot-on critique of masculinity, double-standards, and (not-a-spoler)hating on fat people, which I've been told I'm not supposed to talk about.

# ¿ May 15, 2014 07:18

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

Pigbog posted:

This thread is just part of my dream. I don't like this dream anymore! It's not a good dream!

If you can't change the subject into something more people want to talk about, your topic is less interesting. It was an episode about how women and fat people (and fat women) are treated differently. Expect some discussion on the matter. I've tried to move on from the topic, and it didn't happen.

Speaking of which, Louie's kids are two of the greatest child actors I've ever seen in my entire life. Every time they're on screen, I believe everything that's going on. That's rare. On the scale of Jake Lloyd in Phantom Menace to Justin Henry in Kramer vs. Kramer, it's rare to find child actors who make you feel things other than "ugh. What a terrible child actor."

Nothing but kudos up in here.

# ¿ May 15, 2014 09:15

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

Thank you for saying all that so I didn't have to.

So we're pretty much done with stand-alones, right? The next several episodes are going to be big arcs like the Letterman run was?

# ¿ May 16, 2014 00:18

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

precision posted:

I know I have no actual authority but I would love it if people would shut up about that scene. And I'm including the posters I agree with. It's just become too toxic and very few people are being civil about disagreeing.

I'm incredibly sorry about my part in the discourse going almost nowhere positive. My heart was in the right place, I think, but that means gently caress-all.

I loved this week's episodes. This show is growing so much that it's hard to go back to the start. It matured, like a great band. It started good, but kind of obvious, and now Louie is making his White Album, or whatever music metaphor fits your taste. It's a completely different show, and I like this one so, so, so much better, even though I liked the old one too.

# ¿ May 22, 2014 08:16

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

I'm scared to post about the attempted rape because a few pages of fat woman talk made a lot of people mad at me, so gently caress knows what this would do.

But that made me super uncomfortable. I'll leave it at that.

# ¿ Jun 3, 2014 09:21

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

Kevyn posted:

That post is way more disturbing than the actual scene.

It's exactly what I was afraid of when the scene aired. To anybody who got the scene, Louie would just be preaching to the choir. To the other side, it seems to validate their "she was asking for it" rhetoric.

I hoped I was just being pessimistic, but we literally just heard an argument that Pamela deserved to be raped because she's a bitch.

# ¿ Jun 5, 2014 20:04

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

Illinois Smith posted:

Yeah man, remember all those hilarious season 1 episodes? Like the one where young Louie learns all about Jesus' wounds and breaks into a church to ease his suffering? Or the one where he has a run-in with a teenage bully and follows him home?

Exactly.

# ¿ Jun 9, 2014 02:17

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

He did a whole bit at the start of his show about how he should be able to say human being because he doesn't mean it as a slam against gay people.

It so completely misses the mark that I was thrilled when he took himself to task for it on his show.

# ¿ Jun 11, 2014 21:53

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

Lampsacus posted:

What episode is this in? I'm keen to see.

Poker Game from season 1. Not sure of the episode title, though that may be it.

Ginette Reno posted:

I can't remember when he said it but I recall him saying once that a lot of what he likes about comedy is the ability to take things that are uncomfortable or even awful and make light of them so that those awful lovely things lose the power they have. That doesn't mean he's encouraging the use of the word human being or friend of the family. But maybe by joking about them he can make those awful things lose a little of their power so that the ability of those words and situations to cause such tremendous hurt to people can be lowered.

That's all well and good, but he doesn't really get to decide whether or not oval office, friend of the family, human being, etc. are hurtful, because none of those words have ever attacked who he is as a person.

It's the "I didn't mean to shoot you, therefore you are not shot" argument. It doesn't matter if he doesn't have hate in him when he uses the words. The damage is still done.

Thankfully, even he seems to be growing out of that belief.

# ¿ Jun 12, 2014 21:58

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

So Mr. Hoffman was supposed to be Phil Hoffman before he died, right?

# ¿ Jun 13, 2014 02:08

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

There's nothing political about not being an rear end in a top hat to people.

# ¿ Jun 13, 2014 23:23

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

So trying to rape a girl charms her on some level.

Good to know, Louie.

Jesus, what a mess.

# ¿ Jun 17, 2014 07:36

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

Bown posted:

I spent most of the episodes thinking they were kind of ignoring the rapey bit (other than obviously mirroring that shot in part 2) but I think the last scene brought it all into focus for me. Louie thought she was just being purposefully standoffish and that if he pushed enough he could force affection out of her, and the bath scene shows that she genuinely really has trouble expressing that stuff, and not letting her be who she is is denying her her agency (as well as what he did being obviously wrong anyway). I hope this all makes sense.

I genuinely hope this is what he was going for.

I don't think it worked super well, but this would still be nice.

# ¿ Jun 17, 2014 18:19

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

Vogler posted:

Why do you need the show to comdemn behaviour you find abhorrent?

False equivalence, boss. I don't need the show to condemn behavior I find abhorrent. I just don't enjoy when it acts as if those same bahviors should be rewarded.

Again, maybe there was a message that went over my head, but it really looked like trying to rape a girl means she'll finally give in after you've been persuing her for years, and you'll take a bath together and she'll validate you as a person by accepting who you are, even if she's mean.

I do not, under any circumstances, think this was the message Louie was trying to send. Not at all. But that's how it came across.

# ¿ Jun 18, 2014 11:10

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

verybad posted:

I think "right message" is a pretty lovely standard for storytelling.

I think "advocates attempted rape, kinda" is a pretty lovely standard for storytelling too.

regulargonzalez posted:

A lot of really fascinating, well-thought out, true-to-life stuff that's too long to actually quote.

I respect the poo poo out of this post in many ways, because it questions what consent is in a way the episodes didn't, but in many other ways, I feel that none of this matters in this instance, because your examples are real, and weren't shown to millions of people who, like it or not, use media to determine what's normal. Television plays a role in how we as human beings are socialized. It tells us what's okay and what's not okay far more than actually speaking to real people does, for better or worse.

In your two stories, the realities are gray. Louie didn't play this out to make a point about how gray these things are. The show wasn't constructed that way. He played a hapless idiot at the end of his rope (his creative wheelhouse) who was attracted to a really mean, equally screwed up woman who inspires feelings in him that cause abhorrent behavior.

For a moment, it looked like this was a story about sexual assault. In the end, it wasn't. That was just a quick interlude that had little payoff. That's what bothers me.

It's a really adult story, and those stories need to be handled a certain way to not come across as if they're advocating lovely behavior.

Now on an adult level and as an artist (the three most pretentious words in the English language), I applaud him for trying, and think no story should be taboo. But since, as I mentioned, I believe that television is responsible for socializing America (boo, Livid! Boo! I know.), I think artists have a responsibility to portray things in a way that don't contribute to the litany of media that damages social interaction in many capacities. The difference between one and the other can be as simple as shot choice, or even cutting a shot three frames earlier or later. It's not the events. It's how we're shown them.

I'm kind of a killjoy in TVIV (and hilariously enough, SA's Pro Wrestling forum) because I see things this way. A lot of this is probably because I worked in bars throughout my twenties and heard, night after night, the "I'm not racist, but-" or "I'm not homophobic, but-" rhetoric of people who knew that how they viewed the world was frowned upon, but were constantly looking for any validation about their terrible worldviews. I don't like when television serves it to them. It's a shared experience that has far more power than we like to admit. If it weren't so easy to tell the same stories without being damaging, I'd just consider it collateral damage, but one single shot can change the meaning of something so completely that I don't feel like it's too much to ask that we don't tell potential rapists that "hey, it worked for Louie. It wasn't rape, because she really did want him."

I applauded Louie for taking on fat acceptance earlier this season, and I know the guy's heart is in the right place. It's been great fun, as somebody in this thread described it, watching him on his journey from a 40-year-old MRA to a 50-year-old feminist.

I can not like the message an episode of a show I like sends, and still love the show. I love South Park, for gently caress's sake, and they once argued that killing somebody because they're black is no different than killing somebody for any other reason, and shouldn't be treated differently.

The show is great, and I loved this season. I just don't like that Louie (the character) sexually assaulted Pamela (the character), and it was part of how he � and I'm being deliberate here � obtained her. He won the object by being aggressive.

I really wanted her to take him to task when he called her, and continuously remind him that he tried to rape her, and for him come to grips with what he'd done, while realizing that even her lovely, mean behavior didn't justify it. It really seemed like that's what was coming, too, because Louie the writer even wrote himself as the antagonist from the start. "This would be rape if you weren't such an idiot," etc.

The message I got instead, in the end, is that if you keep trying, and attempt sexual assault, you'll finally get the girl you've been pining for forever. But you have to accept her flaws first. It was pretty muddy. Again, I have no doubt that that is absolutely not something Louis CK thinks. That's not what I'm going for here.

xbilkis posted:

Just because there isn't a big flashing bar that says RAPE IS BAD AND WOMEN SHOULD BE TREATED WITH RESPECT doesn't mean you should try to extract the worst possible reading from the show, because What If Dumber People Misunderstand??

I don't want that. I don't think anybody wants that. That's just obtuse, and bad art. I'm complaining about the show advocating something, and you're acting as if I'm complaining that it's not condemning it. It's two entirely different conversations.

bubblelubble posted:

Goddamn it why are we still on this?

Posts like these are why I keep doing this, just FYI. We're still on this because I refuse to live in a world that won't talk about issues that effect more than half of the population because they make people like you examine things you don't want to.

Anyway, thank you for letting me vomit up a wall of text on the matter. I hope some of it makes sense.

# ¿ Jun 19, 2014 08:30

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

That's fair, and it's understandable to be annoyed by it when you just want to talk about television, so I hope that I can at least keep the discussion grounded in analysis of the show and its messages, and not just a blanket discussion of other issues.

# ¿ Jun 19, 2014 08:53

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

Not for nothin', but I wrote a lot of words trying to make a point. Too many, really. You called me cynical and called it good.

If you want to tear me apart, can you actually do it, please? I invite the discourse.

# ¿ Jun 19, 2014 09:52

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

White Rabbit posted:

what about Obama?

gently caress yourself.

Eidt: (Read this in Calamity Jane voice.)

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

# ¿ Jun 19, 2014 10:09

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

BrownThunder posted:

Lock the thread until next season please????

If you don't want to read discussion about the show, why are you here?

# ¿ Jun 19, 2014 19:41

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# ¿ May 14, 2024 20:14

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

So Pamela Adlon plays basically the same character on Californication, and that character was also almost raped in that show's finale. The dialog is even very close.

# ¿ Jul 3, 2014 02:30

The Something Awful Forums > The Finer Arts > TV IV > Louie season 4 - "Can you not say dirty sex poop"