beanieson posted:

I just love how happy he was at the end... he's telling this horrible story about how he's forever in debt to these people and his life is effectively ruined, but his misfortune made the girl (who'd rejected him earlier) laugh

massive spider posted:

As much as people say that they like what they like and thats it I think the actual fact is peoples desires tend to sit in a grey area between "what I'm attracted to" and "what is socially acceptable for me to show I'm attracted to".

Cheesus posted:

It's not about pleasing society; it's the fear of how he will look to society if he dates a fat chick. As in, the (ridiculous) self-perception that the best he can ever do is date a fat woman.

There may be legitimate reasons one would have for not accepting a fat woman, but they almost certainly don't apply to the lonely, fat guy who won't help himself be healthier. It's a lovely, stupid hypocrisy which is why he so richly deserved the monologue, realized she was right, and finally accepted her.

massive spider posted:

Sarah is totally right about him not wanting to date her because he's scared of the stigma though.

You know shes right because shes saying to him, on the show he writes and produces. She is Louies own self perception that he could gently caress a fat girl but not date her echoed back to him by another character.

Red posted:

Can anyone recap the episode where Bobby and Louie meet their mother for a meal, and she decides she's Lesbian? I remember being mesmerized by the exchange, but now I can't recall it at all, especially Bobby's reaction.

And am I right in remembering they've depicted his mother in conflicting ways? Besides that episode, where she comes off looking really dumb, I feel like Louie has the childhood flashback to his mom telling him about religion, and she comes off as being pretty wise.

King Vidiot posted:

While this is true, the core statement was about the treatment of women, not fat people. But everyone here was making it into solely an issue on being overweight vs. being fit, which was a statement covered in that monologue but not the main one. At best it was a secondary concern, the primary one was inequality of the sexes.

King Vidiot posted:

...'kay.

I'm not really sure what that has to do with what I posted.

King Vidiot posted:

Well no, the speech wasn't solely about the different factors of attractiveness. There was also something in there about how women's sole worth as human beings is based on how physically attractive they are. That's why Louie felt he had to reassure Vanessa that she wasn't fat. He thought he was being kind, but what he was really saying was "Your body weight is the only measure of value as a person, because you're a woman".

Louie may feel that his own value is based on his weight, but what he doesn't realize, and what Vanessa tries to explain, is that for men it doesn't matter. Other men don't really judge him. Women (for the most part), don't really judge him unless he's being pathetic about it. Women can tell men they're not attracted to them, because men can be valued for other things. Men have to avoid telling women they're not physically attracted to them, because if a woman isn't physically attractive she's subhuman. And that's what the speech was saying, primarily.

King Vidiot posted:

I'm not saying that she doesn't. I'm saying that Louie's internalized this attitude that women only have value if men find them physically attractive.

You're kind of deflecting everything I'm saying so that it fits whatever you believe, which I guess in this case is "sexism is over" or something.

ChairMaster posted:

Jesus loving christ, people watched the whole episode, including the beginning where Louie and his brother go eat two full sized meals at two different places in a row after deciding they're not gonna be fat anymore, and they still could think nothing but "well stop being fat then you stupid fat bitch"? You hate fat people just as much as everyone else in the world, we get it.

It never ceases to amaze me how people can actually be bad at watching television. I mean it's the easiest poo poo in the world and you still gently caress it up. Come on.

Yoshifan823 posted:

She says at one point something along the lines of "I'm sorry, but you're gonna represent every average guy who has ever been this way to a fat woman". It's clear she's not just angry with Louie, but that he is every man who has ever said "oh, you're not fat..." or not dated her or whatever.

And yeah, this doesn't feel like a complaint solely about being fat, but it's about being a woman. The complaints she has aren't simply about her being fat, but about how a woman being fat and a man being fat are two completely different things, and how unfair that is. Her losing the weight and becoming skinny wouldn't magically fix everything, it would just create a whole new set of problems. It would be like a stereotypically ugly woman talking about the differences between ugly women and ugly men. Saying "oh well she can just lose the weight" is missing half the point, because she can lose the weight, but she can't just grow a dick.

Yoshifan823 posted:

Not specifically about "just" being a woman, but about the differences between being a man and a woman. It's less about the fat/not fat divide and more about the fat man/fat woman divide. She didn't spend most of her time talking about skinny women, but about fat men.

Irish Joe posted:

Being talked down to is what triggered her rant and I can't help but wonder how she would have reacted if he had just been honest and called her a disgusting pig.

Sub Rosa posted:

massive spider posted:

Remember, Louie is a comedian, it's demonstrated that she's pretty quick witted as well.

Their whole relationship has got these back and forth jibes going on it's only when they get to the fat thing that Louie suddenly puts kids gloves on "oh you're not fat...". Because he feels sorry for the poor fat girl and weird about bringing it up.

Calling her a disgusting pig is a bit much, but I'm sure he could have acknowledged that yeah, she's fat in some jokey way.

It's not the fact that she's fat per se which is the issue, it's the weirdness Louie/people have about addressing it. Like she said, ideally she'd want to be able to make "lol I'm a fat slob" jokes about it like Louie does without people acting like she's going to kill herself.

nutranurse posted:

The proper response would have been for Louie to go "Lol, you think YOURE fat? Let me tell you about what a Bang Bang is."

Then launch into a funny story.

Tokelau All Star posted:

Again, it's Louie's voice that is being heard during the speech. A real person wouldn't stop and monologue on Louie and men in general like that. The show gives Louie the opportunity to give a "Louis C.K. Rant" through the kind of person that is affected by regular joes who think being seen with a fat girl will somehow hurt their image.

massive spider posted:

Both what?

nutranurse posted:

Jesus you're insufferable. Proper response as in "haha lets continue this funny line of conversation by me also revealing something about myself," not some kind of weird whatever the gently caress it is you're getting at.

nutranurse posted:

I completely forgot that Louie cast a black lady as his ex-wife, what was his reasoning for that again? Just because?

Alfred P. Pseudonym posted:

What more reason is needed?

nutranurse posted:

I mean, I'd get it if the kids looked even a little mixed, but they clearly aren't so what's the deal.

Coulda created some great casting opportunities for some mixed race child actors.

verybad posted:

Uh, no it's not? It's perfectly normal. Sorry about your anxiety issues, buddy.

Yoshifan823 posted:

I dunno, I haven't seen a single "god what a fat awful bitch she needs to just shut the gently caress up" or anything that heinous. There are obviously some people who are a little off, but no one who is outright beligerant and awful (though saying he should have called her a "disgusting pig" is getting up there, thanks Irish Joe!)

LividLiquid posted:

The story she tells details very explicitly that tons of guys are willing to have sex with her, but none of them are willing to admit it publicly. They like her. Everybody likes her. Louie likes her. But they're all unwilling to show this to the world, because they'll be mocked for loving a fat girl.

It's a really spot-on critique of masculinity, double-standards, and (not-a-spoler)hating on fat people, which I've been told I'm not supposed to talk about.

Bifner McDoogle posted:

I think the issue people have is this carries a massive set of assumptions on her part which unfortunately make her appear more entitled than frustrated. This is exacerbated by the fact that in the episode Louie just doesn't seem all that into her. The tone and presentation suggests that we are supposed to empathize but the show made a huge misstep by making that part of the speech rest on this assumption when all the available evidence suggested that said assumption was false. I think this is more a failure on the part of the show than anything else - we're supposed to identify with this women and rethink the way that we treat fat women but it fails to demonstrate that people are not loving her for no reason other than they are embarrassed by being seen with her. This ends up conflating men who just aren't into fat women (which is totally fine, can't deny someone their preferences unless they diddle kids or blow goats) and men who are into fat women but don't express it because they are cowing to social pressures. The latter is a terrible thing for every person involved and reflects some seriously hosed up attitudes on the part of that man.

Bifner McDoogle posted:

This a really minor misstep that wouldn't bug me if Louie wasn't such a great show already. But it does bug me a bit more than it should, if only because I could go on for pages about how hosed society is when dealing with fat women - from the double standard to the focus on appearance over health to the billion-dollar 'fitness' industry exploiting this in ways that emphasize form over function and offer nothing in terms of healthy living. It is absolutely mad that society tells women they can't lift weights when lifting weights is an essential part of getting in shape, that it tells them to buy into temporary fad diets that don't work and then shuns them for failing to lose weight when they are trapped in a maze of disheartening bullshit. Then they get smacked with moral judgments tailor made to convince them that they are inherently flawed as people opposed to just temporarily living an unhealthy lifestyle. By focusing on sex the show misses a golden opportunity to explore all these issues, instead focusing on a sexual aspect that are ultimately deeply personal, contradicted by the other parts of the bit and ultimately a more a symptom of the counterproductive way that society treats fat women.

Darko posted:

I -think- what Louie was getting at was that a lot of "average"* men who will probably invariably end up with a chubby woman do not treat them in the same manner that they do women that they feel are out of their league in that interim period before they settle for whoever they want. They know the big woman is good for them, are relatively attracted to them, and realize it's about as good as they're going to do because they're the social equal to them. But they don't "claim" them in public or chase after them in the same way because they have dreams of getting "better" even though they don't merit it themselves. They want to be perceived as a top-level guy, but aren't, so they're extremely self conscious about being too close with the larger woman that they actually know they'll probably end up with and like well enough.

Bifner McDoogle posted:

This is a really bizarre attitude to me that does not line up with my own experiences at all. I'm gay, though, is this really a common way that people think about women and relationships? My experience has more been more that men who are just loving around are shallow because they are not looking for a committed relationship, that they basically chase the hottest people available because they are looking for something shallow and temporary and are going to focus on it for that reason. Then when they go for a serious relationship the range of personalities they are looking after narrows and the range of body types they are into increases. The whole hierarchy you've set up here seems pretty out-there to me but I only understand shallow relationships between two men, not so much between men and women.

Jake Armitage posted:

I'd be horrified if I watched that play out. Honestly, if you are going to stick with this "men and women are all the same and should be treated the same" line of thinking, at least be consistent. The Pamela story line was disturbing to me for that reason, because he was being the "aww man you friendzoned me!" guy that no one should ever be. Every time he brought it up he made her uncomfortable by putting her in the position of having to explain to him why she wouldn't have a relationship with him, which is a really messed up thing to do to a friend. There's only two ends to that exchange: either she finally puts her foot down and hurts his feelings enough that he stops that nonsense, or she caves in and fucks him which is insanely uncool. There is no good end to it, and you guys are really missing the fact that that exact same scenario just played out in front of you in reverse.

Jake Armitage posted:

Rewatch the finale, when he takes her to the airport, but think from her perspective. Maybe it was just my reading, but it was painful. She was just trying to have a nice goodbye and he made it really odd and uncomfortable, just standing there like an idiot puppy dog while she's saying out loud "just wave to me idiot". My read was she just wanted to have this play out like it would with two friends, and he just couldn't or wouldn't.

King Vidiot posted:

edit: Also you added "beautiful"... which changes it even further. Louis C.K. is not a bad looking guy but he's not ruggedly handsome. It'd be more like if Louie and Vanessa's roles in the episode were reversed, and she was the successful comedian and he were just somebody who worked at the club.

Binary Logic posted:

And after seeing the first 2 episodes, he's lost his sense of humour. Don't know if I should even bother continuing to watch this season.
He and Seinfeld both use observational humour but Louis' shtick of "Oh look at me, I'm pathetic and hopeless" is tired and kind of odd given his recent successful tours and stand-up career.
It often makes me sad and feeling sorry for them when people who make their living from their public persona can't even be bothered to have a healthy diet and get in some exercise.

regulargonzalez posted:

Now that Community is dead, I nominate Louie to be the reigning "best show with worst thread" champ. Do I have a second?

Jake Armitage posted:

Except normal guys don't generally turn into total creeps. Total creeps turn into total creeps. I don't even know what you are trying to say here. Every man is a potential sexual assault waiting to happen?

If I give him any benefit of the doubt for that scene, then I think he was trying to show how the same behavior can be sexy and hot and work in one set of conditions, and completely fail and come off violent and horrific in another. But its a lovely point to make, because if you can't tell in that moment that its not appropriate and unwelcome, something is terribly wrong with you and you should seek help. And that goes double when the girl is repeatedly saying no and pushing you away, as Pamela was. There's playful resistance, and then there's get away from me you disgusting creep and the way that scene was shot didn't leave an ounce of ambiguity. The more I think about it, the more I can't believe what I watched.

Mutation posted:

Thinking back on it, the stand-up bit in the middle of episode 10 is probably the most on point one this season. What with the whole "Oh, you're 28 and you think you are already locked in for heaven?" and the bit about the abuse of women.

TheRationalRedditor posted:

Here's a thought: how about everyone step back and let a dude more infinitely funny, insightful, and truly compassionate for social injustices than y'all ever will be finish his story before churning out more outraged, mealy-mouthed thinkpieces, the only thing the internet needs less than the end of net neutrality.

TheRationalRedditor posted:

This thread does not consist solely of hysterical users wringing their sallow little hands shrieking "LOUIE WAS A RAPE FAN ALL ALONG! TOTAL MISSTEP!!", so I'm come here for the occasional thoughtful post by anyone less intolerably wretched, goon.

Instead of reflexively launching the kneejerk outrage brigade, one might focus on how that intentionally disturbing final scene was a compressed dark mirror of Louie's relationship with Amia. That aggressive physical struggle was edited to nearly match his wordless seduction of Amia shot for shot.

Except this time he's selfishly, boorishly projecting the desire onto his longtime friend who is very much capable of the verbal communication as Amia wasn't. Louie was idealizing and romanticizing the ended relationship where he didn't need to concern himself with the "hassle" of reciprocal communication, because if he doesn't have to talk to a partner like Janet then he doesn't have to concern himself with getting tripped up in his own jumbled words when his actions are questioned. Foisting this kind of madness onto Pamela was exactly as deranged as it seemed, and there's still two more episodes in the arc to go.

precision posted:

Anyone outraged over the scene should probably remember that the show has been strictly surreal since season 3.

Jake Armitage posted:

The scene ended with him forcing Pamela to kiss him, and then Louie curling his hand into a fist and hissing out a "yesssssss" when it was over. I think its safe to say it was normalized and trivialized.

I know you are saying there is no outrage here, but for the record, I'm outraged.

[edit] one of the reasons I'm outraged is because a huge chunk of his audience is Reddit neckbeards, and if you think they are going to take away any feminist message or other such nuances from that scene, you're dead wrong.