- trickybiscuits
- Jan 13, 2008
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yospos
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Person's post on their own page:
quote:The horror of social media is that it lets you see what vile, sadistic, hateful sacks of poo poo human beings are, and it makes you hope this wretched species goes extinct.
I've been trying to interact more via social media to escape from the loving terrors that live in my head, and that clearly is a huge loving mistake. I'm better off as an agoraphobic shut-in huddled in the corner and drenched in tears in than trying deal with these loving assholes for one more loving minute.
gently caress this species. We clearly don't deserve to exist.
Same person, in response to comments on his post:
quote:It's in reference to this post by [Dave], who I stupidly thought was a loving friend but was really just a professional acquaintance who associates with sadistic assholes:
[link removed]
Here's the stupid part: I 100% agreed with the article and the posts other people were making, and I was trying to achieve clarity by delineating how something comes across as harassment.
An rear end in a top hat accused me of "mansplaining."
Me.
As if I'm a Men's Rights Activist or some poo poo.
As a feminist and someone who is incredibly sensitive to issues of privilege, this really loving hurt. It made me break down in tears, because it was the most hurtful thing anyone had said to me in years.
It hurt so much I spent 3 hours writing a reply, explaining how hurtful it was and trying to be crystal clear about what I was saying, because it was clearly misunderstood by those loving morons.
Those loving assholes couldn't even be bothered to read what I wrote. It's just tl;dr and then they pull out the GamerGate playbook -- sea lioning, gaslighting, harassment, strawman arguments.
loving worthless sacks of poo poo.
It's like they're TRYING to make people hate women or something. What the gently caress is WRONG with them?
And in a thread about why harassment is wrong -- WHICH, TO BE CLEAR, I WAS 100% IN AGREEMENT WITH THE WHOLE TIME -- they apparently think it's OK to harass a mentally ill man to the point where he spends the last half-hour in the kitchen fondling the loving knives and dragging them across my skin.
These fuckers don't know what it's like when your own loving brain tries SO loving HARD TO KILL YOU EVERY DAY.
So, I won't be coming back here for a long time. No member of this species is worth one god damned second of my time anymore. No one loving DESERVES a second of my time anymore.
At least the demons in my head are loving up-front about being assholes who are trying to kill me. They don't hide behind a cowardly, hypocritical facade and try to harass someone into killing himself.
Worst part is that [Enid] posted the EXACT SAME POINT I made, and even AGREED with me when I pointed out the importance of acknowledging agency and how that helped to avoid objectification.
Do [Dave] or his other cowardly friends give HIM any poo poo? Nope! [Marc]'s a good source of income for freelance game designers!
But me? loving pile on, gently caress that Jedi Counseling rear end in a top hat, he's not important anymore.
gently caress them. gently caress all of them.
If I do end up killing myself (and no, I don't plan on it), I want all of you to look up every one of those shitbags and name them in a wrongful death suit.
They're every bit as bad as GamerGate. They're WORSE, because they're pretending to give a poo poo about other people and then they harass the mentally ill until they loving open a vein.
Just a head's up: one person told him to stop fishing for a pat on the head that he wasn't guilty of harassment.
From the thread, same person:
quote:Echoing [Marc]'s sentiment, I hope the stories I posted don't come across as "mansplaining," either. I thought they were valid examples of compliments that wouldn't be harassing in any way (and judging from the pleasant conversations they started, I sincerely doubt they were troubling to the other person).
FWIW, I actually have received compliments from "big, bulky, scary guys" many, many times (usually for an amusing t-shirt I'm wearing), and some were even from patrons at a gay bar. Because it was just complimenting a style choice, though, it never came across as leering or made me uncomfortable, and I really hope that the few times I've done the same it was received in the same way. (That said, I completely understand that as a big, bulky guy myself, these men are inherently less scary to me.)
Now, if you just meant that people like me or Marc are as rare and awesome as unicorns, I'll take that as a compliment.
(One unrelated comment by someone else.)
Same poster:
quote:I'm just wondering if I'm one of the "men" (plural) "trying to mansplain" or not, because it would genuinely hurt my feelings if I came across that way.
Responder:
quote:
[John], by insisting to validate whether or not you are the perpetrator of mansplaining, you are in effect attempting to mansplain.
Your initial comments were fine, but as they continue they are starting to get kind of weird and are redirecting the conversation away from the initial argument, "What qualifies as harassment" and are turning this into, "Well a genuine compliment shouldn't be harassment". And here in lies the rub, what you consider a genuine compliment is not always perceived that way. And the more you insist on how genuine it is, when the compliment is unwanted, the more it is perceived as harassment.
Let it go.
If you keep pushing, you stop being a nice guy and turn into that creepy guy who follows a woman for five blocks saying, "I like your boots".
There then followed forty-eight comments which had nothing to do with this guy or what he'd said.
Original poster:
quote: [Jane]: "[John], by insisting to validate whether or not you are the perpetrator of mansplaining, you are in effect attempting to mansplain."
Personally, I think if you are accusing a lifelong feminist -- one who read books and wrote papers on white male priviledge 20 years ago when he was in college studying anthropology, one who has donated his time and money to organizations such as Planned Parenthood that do so much good for so many women -- of "mansplaining," maybe, just MAYBE, your definition is too broad.
The reason I wanted to know if the mansplaining comment was directed at me is because, if it was, it is literally THE MOST INSULTING THING anyone has said to me in years. (Considering that I've had pro-GG assholes come at me on Twitter recently, THAT'S REALLY SAYING SOMETHING.)
It seriously hurt my feelings and it triggered a major panic attack. Saying something so hurtful to someone that it causes a profoundly disturbing medical, psychological event in that person IS NOT OKAY. As such, it's important to try to be sensitive to other people's feelings by thinking of things from their point of view (which is PRECISELY what I was attempting to do in my posts).
"Your initial comments were fine, but as they continue they are starting to get kind of weird and are redirecting the conversation away from the initial argument, 'What qualifies as harassment' and are turning this into, 'Well a genuine compliment shouldn't be harassment'. And here in lies the rub, what you consider a genuine compliment is not always perceived that way. And the more you insist on how genuine it is, when the compliment is unwanted, the more it is perceived as harassment.
"Let it go."
No, I'm not letting this go, because what you posted here is absolutely unacceptable in a civilized discussion.
First, I >>>NEVER<<< said anything even REMOTELY similar to "Well a genuine compliment shouldn't be harassment."
Nothing I said could POSSIBLY have been construed that way. It was ALWAYS framed in terms of what DOESN'T seem to make the other person uncomfortable and WHY that might be the case. I NEVER framed it in terms of intended effect trumping ACTUAL effect, EVEN THOUGH the author herself mentioned the distinction between compliments that are genuinely being nice vs. those that are leering. The only time I brought up "being nice" was in DIRECT REFERENCE to the author's argument because I found it to be unhelpful and I wanted to IMPROVE on it.
In other words, you decided to "strawman" me.
Doing so is insulting, disrespectful, and grossly intellectually dishonest.
You should know better.
Same person, immediately after that post:
quote:TO BE 100% CLEAR: I was, and still am, merely trying to delineate the circumstances under which a complement is harassing and/or threatening to someone vs. circumstances in which they are welcomed and appreciated. The author says there are "nice" complements and she can tell when someone is being nice, but that's not very helpful to someone who might THINK they're being nice but coming across as threatening.
So, for the sake of helping men (including me) to understand the issue, I wanted to explore the topic intellectually. Consider these examples of compliments:
Example A: You visit an old friend you haven't seen in some time. After you greet one another, you say, "What a lovely home!"
Example B: A man, three feet from a woman who is a total stranger, at 3 AM on an otherwise abandoned street, says, "Nice boobs."
Example A is a compliment that is clearly not harassment. Example B is technically also a compliment, but it clearly IS harassing, threatening, and intensely creepy.
Therefore, I wanted to delineate the factors that distinguish A from B for the sake of clarity and understanding.
And, after thinking about it, I realize it has NOTHING to do with compliments at all, because it applies to ANY social interaction -- asking for directions, small talk, etc. It's the subject and context of the social interaction that is the real issue here.
Consider the factors that distinguish A from B:
(1) How well you know the person. As someone moves along the continuum from assailant to stranger to acquaintance to friend to loving life partner, any interaction is inherently less harassing, threatening, or creepy simply because you both know and feel safe with that person.
(2) The safety of the environment. In a well-populated, well-lit area with lots of other people, any social interaction is inherently less harassing, threatening, or creepy. Presumably, everyone would know that the 3 AM on an abandoned street scenario is incredibly threatening to ANYONE, and particularly to anyone who is more physically vulnerable for reasons of size, strength, etc.
(3) The integrity of your personal space. If the person speaking to you is a good distance away (e.g. someone on the far end of a train platform asking if you know what time it is), they are inherently much less threatening than if they are within an arm's reach (e.g. creep 3 feet away in Example B). Interrupting or inconveniencing someone falls into this category as well because you're imposing on that person's time. The longer the interaction takes, the more likely it is to be inappropriate. Finally, the greater the physical disparity between the two parties, the more personal space will feel violated; as such, the larger you are compared to the other person, the more personal space you should leave between you to keep the other person from feeling uncomfortable or threatened. (I hypothesize that personal space integrity is roughly proportional to the square root of the distance between the two people x the ratio of the subject's size to the initiator's size, but that's neither here nor there.)
(4) Whether the interaction objectifies you. (This is the main point I was trying to work through before someone accused me of "mansplaining.") To me, it seems that the more separate the object of discussion is from you, the less it will be perceived as objectification and therefore the less threatening, harassing, or creepy it will be:
(4a) Someone complimenting your house or car is fine, ceteris paribus (i.e. assuming you don't violate points 1 through 3).
(4b) Someone complementing on your phone, purse, or some other carried object is usually OK, but because they are small and easy to steal, the effects of points 1 through 3 will be more pronounced.
(4c) Someone complementing an item of clothing is where you start to run into potential trouble because it's actually ON your body as opposed to being carried or a large possession such as a house or car. To me -- and this is where I really wanted to hear others' opinions on the matter -- complimenting a notable article of clothing is fine so long as you are *actually* complimenting the person's sense of style (i.e. you are acknowledging their agency) and not the body underneath it (i.e. you are objectifying their body). For example, complimenting a short skirt, a low-cut top, or tight jeans is NOT OK because they would feel like a transparent comment on the subject's legs, boobs, or butt, respectively. EVEN IF YOU DON'T MEAN IT SEXUALLY, these comments would be highly inappropriate for a stranger because they would come across as objectifying her body. At the other end of the spectrum, things like outerwear, footwear, or even hairstyle (to cite some examples I brought up earlier) are usually fine because they aren't covering sensitive body parts and they are very clear expressions of personal style. The better you know the person, the more likely they would genuinely appreciate you noticing the change (e.g. right after getting a new haircut).
(4d) Someone complimenting the body itself is clearly objectifying that person. Anyone with even the slightest sense of social norms should recognize that this will be inherently creepy when directed at a stranger or even an acquaintance. It *might* be OK for someone who is at least a friend in the right circumstances; for example, if you are catching up with a friend who you know has been working out and/or dieting, they might genuinely appreciate something like, "You look great! Have you lost weight?" Clearly, this is something so personal and sensitive that it's OK only when you KNOW it's OK, so if you have any doubt whatsoever, keep it to yourself.
In my opinion, these four factors interact with one another in a multiplicative manner; the closer any of them are to the uncomfortable end of the spectrum (a stranger, an insecure location, in very close quarters, or the closer the object of discussion is to the subject's physical body), the more likely the social interaction is to be uncomfortable for the other person.
So, to refer to one of my earlier examples, complimenting (1) a stranger (2) in a well-lit, well-populated area (3) from a safe and respectful distance without imposing on her time (4) on a choice of personal style that isn't in any way suggestive of sensitive body parts seems -- in my experience -- to have been on the "acceptable" side of the spectrum, with absolutely no hint that the other person was even the slightest bit put off by the compliment and/or question, and who in fact seemed to genuinely brighten at the compliment. If any of those factors were less favorable, however, it could very well have fallen into the uncomfortable range.
THAT'S what I was doing: Attempting to delineate what makes a compliment or any other social interaction appreciated vs. acceptable vs. awkward vs. outright harassment. I want to understand what factors go into it specifically to avoid situations where you might THINK you're doing something completely normal and non-threatening, but in fact you're making the other person uncomfortable.
The purpose was -- and always has been -- to educate and clarify to avoid misunderstandings, NOT to minimize or ignore concerns. I'd wanted to hear what others think about it so I could try to "fine tune" my understanding of the situation and be a better, more respectful person.
And for that, this lifelong feminist was accused of "mansplaining" and got to enjoy a lovely panic attack last night.
Thanks.
Same person, responding to responses to his post:
quote:When you seriously hurt the feelings of someone with OCD with Bipolar I disorder, learn to expect a painfully detailed and possibly manic reply.
A relatively sane person:
quote:I've been thinking about you, [John], and I feel for you. You seem like you mean well. You're getting a little wordy because you feel it's important to set the record straight. I feel like it's some of the most well meaning people who are hardest to explain this concept to, because they truly don't see what they're doing wrong. They just want to be nice, and then, when their niceness is taken the wrong way, they just want to clear the air. [John], you just have to let things go. The super wordy defensive essays are in fact what consitutes "mansplaining"... which you may want to google. It's ok to compliment a woman. It's a sliding scale depending on how well you know a person. Think of it this way, if you wouldnt say it to a man, dont say it to a woman. Done. Simple. And if you do say something and it's not well recieved, let it go.
I love the internet.
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May 8, 2014 05:13
