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Gophermaster
Mar 5, 2005

Bring the Ruckas

Tippis posted:

It's pretty mortal-friendly since you can pick your level of insanity.

If you just want it to feed shortcut commands to DCS, it's easy as π.
If you want special interactions where the Stream deck shows dynamic data read from the sim or shows switch states depending on what you're actually doing, it gets more interesting… But even then it's still quite doable aside from having to dive into various mods that all suffer the standard GitHub malady of having atrocious documentation that mostly just loops back on itself when you're trying to find more detail.

Yeah I was worried it would involve a lot of puttering to get the more dynamic functionality, thanks for the insight.

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Vahakyla
May 3, 2013
Probation
Can't post for 12 hours!
Call this the quarterly recruitment post.
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSQOrFyiMlYgpCPaCkB2E6i52UptYSRMlGQoa1pWnEy&s

All this you can partake in by joining the Discord at: https://discord.gg/airgoons
Thread: https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3633891

But most of the activity nowadays is on Discord.

AIR GOON RECRUITMENT




First type of event:

quote:

The Long Afternoon War, a dynamic, player commanded war that combined DCS, Arma 3, Microsoft Flight Simulator, and Command: Modern Operations into one game! It is mainly played in DCS. Played every Saturday.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PhAwpb5XYOQ


So wots all this then?


DCS World is a flight sim with modules, individually purchased planes that simulate various helicopters and fixed wing aircraft of mostly the modern era. The game includes non-flyable AI assets, and tons of ground units of all kinds. Game requires a lot of patience, as these airplanes are started manually with each system modeled, and the nerds that fly them click the buttons in the cockpit to achieve what they need to do. The sim is good enough to be used by real air forces for training for planes, such as the US Air National Guard for the A-10, and the French Air Force for the Mirage 2000. Our players will talk on the radio channels with air traffic control and air battle management, and they will use different channels to communicate with their wingmen. Each flight will have its own objectives as part of the package, and the flight leads will write up their plan before game day, and after the game, their after action report. Each days’ game will probably last about 1.5 hours to 2 hours. We’ll stream it both from the perspective of a pilot, and from the air battle manager station’s radar screen.

Does it sound complex? Oh gently caress yeah, it is! But it’s a lot of fun. We hope to attract the interest of non-plane goons and are more than happy to explain terms and describe what we do. Don’t hesitate to ask questions, and we look forward to sharing nerdery in this thread or the Discord.







SECOND EVENT

MERCENARY CAMPAIGN, Brownwater Corporation.

quote:

Ludicrous plot lines, lots of free planes, crazy stuff, insane plot, and even more. Played mostly on Sunday in DCS. Very newbie friendly!








An example mission guidance from a few weeks ago:

"Once we start bombing the vatican, the adrenochrome festival will be effectively disrupted, and the cyberPope should come down off of his throne and start tearing poo poo up
5m after he's disconnected from the adrenothrone, he'll be vulnerable to mk84's and other lamer munitions
He won't pull out his superweapon unless he's threatened
We will get a vague text description of whats happening when he uses it"





THIRD EVENT:

quote:

FALCON BMS, The original, the free, the legendary. The absolute queen of F-16 simulation. Older than most, yet better in so many ways.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHQmTmq0T7c
I'm calling it "Regular BMs with Gorson" - I see no problems with that name. I will frag the missions and post them to discord ahead of time. 🫵 choose the mission and post results (if you want). Feel free to request missions, or escorts, whatever. You can also frag your own missions if you like. The idea here is to get people over the hump that is the janky-rear end BMS campaign interface and right into flying with goons.

I know we have a small handful of people who would like to play this game but if there is no interest that's ok I will likely not cry. I am tentatively going to run this on Tuesday nights Central Time USA, but am open to other days and times.

Scenario:

In this timeline Khomeini was installed as a religious figure in 1979 thus avoiding the revolution. Iraq continued their military build-up through the 80's. The US, fearful of a Iraqi strangehold on the region, supported the Shah and provided Iran with modern planes and equipment. In the meantime Khomeini worked behind the scenes to consolidate power and undermine the Shah's rule. Calls for reform and increased representation by religious figures were ignored; riots exploded across Iran in 1991 (organized and supported by Khomeini) and in 1992 the Shah was overthrown and Khomeini put in place as supreme leader. The US immediately pulled support and cancelled all contracts with Iran, retreating to their Saudi allies and consolidating power there.

Iraq, sensing that both Iran and the US were on their heels, launches a full invasion of Iran on Sept 5, 1992. The Gulf War has begun.

Don't know what BMS is, why you should play, what makes it better (and worse) than DCS, issues with setup or configuration? Just ask.

mllaneza
Apr 28, 2007

Veteran, Bermuda Triangle Expeditionary Force, 1993-1952




New newsletter dropped. Yes, that's a Hellcat.



Dandywalken
Feb 11, 2014

https://youtu.be/mbd1yMF-7iA?si=64NV-YQhWUzLWC95

Chinook preorders up

Carth Dookie
Jan 28, 2013

Dual rotors in VR? Please stop, my poor wallet.

Corky Romanovsky
Oct 1, 2006

Soiled Meat

Can it sling load Jae?

Tippis
Mar 21, 2008

It's yet another day in the wasteland.

Corky Romanovsky posted:

Can it sling load Jae?

It's a simulation, not a fantasy game.

Hyperlynx
Sep 13, 2015

I was thinking:

If an active radar homing missile initially homes in on the target using radar energy reflected off the target from the firing aircraft's radar (before it's close enough for its own radar to pick up the target), how come it doesn't work to use reflected energy from any other radar too, such as wingmen?

Now that I write that out, I'm guessing it's because you need to know the position of the emitter for radar reflections to be useful? When firing you could tell the missile your speed and location and it could use dead reckoning to track your position... ...but in that case you'd need to keep flying the same course or else the dead reckoning would be wrong, and it's standard practice after firing to turn as far away from the target as you can without breaking radar lock.

So how does it work, then?

Tippis
Mar 21, 2008

It's yet another day in the wasteland.

Most commonly, active homing radar missiles don't use radar for the initial phase, and instead rely on a mix of INS guidance towards a predicted position and command updates over data link from the launch vehicle. So having a different radar locking the target doesn't make any difference — that reflected energy isn't what it used anyway.

Rather, missiles that allow for “buddy guidance” either still get their position updates via the launch platform, except that launch platform is in turn being fed position updates from the buddy, or — if it's really spiffy and advanced — everyone is linked together in a network so the missile can get its position updates from any approved data donor.

Corky Romanovsky
Oct 1, 2006

Soiled Meat
To get accurate range information, you need to know the time the radar pulse was emitted and received. If you only have receiving information, you can't determine range accurately. Without range information you cannot correctly perform lead pursuit maneuvers, and would likely need to fall back to direct pursuit (not the most energy efficient).

Some jamming methods introduce noise to the radar calculated velocity and position.

There are likely newer systems (on the horizon) that can communicate via datalink the time of a radar pulse to allow a passive receiver to calculate range information, though the accuracy may be limited.

e:f;b

BMan
Oct 31, 2015

KNIIIIIIFE
EEEEEYYYYE
ATTAAAACK


Corky Romanovsky posted:

Without range information you cannot correctly perform lead pursuit maneuvers

False, every heat seeker since the original sidewinder does just that.

Corky Romanovsky
Oct 1, 2006

Soiled Meat

BMan posted:

False, every heat seeker since the original sidewinder does just that.

In a sense yes, in a sense no.

The path you are referencing flies direct to the target.

Long range shots are better served with a curved path through less dense atmosphere.

BMan
Oct 31, 2015

KNIIIIIIFE
EEEEEYYYYE
ATTAAAACK


Corky Romanovsky posted:

In a sense yes, in a sense no.

The path you are referencing flies direct to the target.

Long range shots are better served with a curved path through less dense atmosphere.

The word you're looking for is "loft". "Lead pursuit" is a term of art which simply means that the nose is pointed in front of the target.

Sagebrush
Feb 26, 2012

Corky Romanovsky posted:

The path you are referencing flies direct to the target.

Long range shots are better served with a curved path through less dense atmosphere.

No it doesn't. A sidewinder flies to an intercept point ahead of the target (i.e. it performs a lead pursuit) by maintaining a constant angle to the target. This is different from constantly pointing the thrust vector at the target (direct pursuit). They were able to do this back in the 1950s with analog electronics and a spinning reflector.

You are talking about lofted missile trajectories which do improve long-range performance, and it is true the Sidewinder does not fly those. But they're not useful for the sort of envelope the Sidewinder is used in anyway.

Hyperlynx posted:

I was thinking:

If an active radar homing missile initially homes in on the target using radar energy reflected off the target from the firing aircraft's radar (before it's close enough for its own radar to pick up the target), how come it doesn't work to use reflected energy from any other radar too, such as wingmen?

In addition to what has been said, fighter radars emit coded pulses, not just continuous wave beams. The missiles can be designed to home on these specific pulse patterns as a method of defeating both intentional jamming and the sort of confusion you're talking about.

Sagebrush fucked around with this message at 02:25 on Apr 28, 2024

Hyperlynx
Sep 13, 2015

Sagebrush posted:

In addition to what has been said, fighter radars emit coded pulses, not just continuous wave beams. The missiles can be designed to home on these specific pulse patterns as a method of defeating both intentional jamming and the sort of confusion you're talking about.

Oh, like laser-guided bomb codes? Interesting!

I was actually thinking about this not as a source of confusion/conflict, but as an asset. If you could fire on a target and the missile guide based on radar reflections from eg an AWACS then you could turn away and break the lock much sooner, which is potentially valuable tactically.

Granted, the closer you are when you launch the higher the probability of kill, but still.

TotalLossBrain
Oct 20, 2010

Hier graben!
A coded pulse train is also used in (near-Earth, active) radar astronomy. When you get a return signal, you can discern just which part of the original signal you're picking up - an important distinction from continuous wave radar.

TotalLossBrain fucked around with this message at 13:57 on Apr 28, 2024

radintorov
Feb 18, 2011

Hyperlynx posted:

Oh, like laser-guided bomb codes? Interesting!
And similarly to laser codes, two radars operating on the same frequency can conflict with one another; that is one way jamming works against radars, but is also something that can cause two jets to effectively jam one another simply by using the same frequency: in almost all flight simulators this aspect is not simulated, but the F-15E and Mirage 2000C modules in DCS actually do and as such radar channels deconfliction is something that should be taken care of when having multiple of those two airframes.

INTJ Mastermind
Dec 30, 2004

It's a radial!
Historically the challenge has been getting a weapons targeting quality firing solution using a datalink track. Surveillance radars were limited in both positional resolution and refresh rate, and the datalink bandwidth just wasn’t high enough to do such a thing.

However, the most recent variants of the AIM-120C and D models can launch off data linked tracks. This is possible due to improvements in surveillance radar and datalink technology, as well as sensor fusion, being able to refine a datalink target using onboard passive sensors (IRST and RWR).

F-22 and F-35 BVR tactics essentially involve flanking the enemy using super cruise at 50,000 feet, while F-15Cs (and eventually -EXs) are forming a fighter wall. The F-35s swing around the rear and silently launch AMRAAMs using datalink from the AWACS and F-15s, and their onboard passive sensors, all without ever turning on their own active radars.

INTJ Mastermind fucked around with this message at 17:18 on Apr 28, 2024

Hyperlynx
Sep 13, 2015

INTJ Mastermind posted:

Historically the challenge has been getting a weapons targeting quality firing solution using a datalink track. Surveillance radars were limited in both positional resolution and refresh rate, and the datalink bandwidth just wasn’t high enough to do such a thing.

However, the most recent variants of the AIM-120C and D models can launch off data linked tracks. This is possible due to improvements in surveillance radar and datalink technology, as well as sensor fusion, being able to refine a datalink target using onboard passive sensors (IRST and RWR).

F-22 and F-35 BVR tactics essentially involve flanking the enemy using super cruise at 50,000 feet, while F-15Cs (and eventually -EXs) are forming a fighter wall. The F-35s swing around the rear and silently launch AMRAAMs using datalink from the AWACS and F-15s, and their onboard passive sensors, all without ever turning on their own active radars.

That's cool as poo poo!

dialhforhero
Apr 3, 2008
Am I 🧑‍🏫 out of touch🤔? No🧐, it's the children👶 who are wrong🤷🏼‍♂️

Hyperlynx posted:

I was thinking:

If an active radar homing missile initially homes in on the target using radar energy reflected off the target from the firing aircraft's radar (before it's close enough for its own radar to pick up the target), how come it doesn't work to use reflected energy from any other radar too, such as wingmen?

Now that I write that out, I'm guessing it's because you need to know the position of the emitter for radar reflections to be useful? When firing you could tell the missile your speed and location and it could use dead reckoning to track your position... ...but in that case you'd need to keep flying the same course or else the dead reckoning would be wrong, and it's standard practice after firing to turn as far away from the target as you can without breaking radar lock.

So how does it work, then?

Well it knows where it is by knowing where it isn’t.

Xakura
Jan 10, 2019

A safety-conscious little mouse!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dAwPOjgonqg

I'm pining for the fjords

ThisIsJohnWayne
Feb 23, 2007
Ooo! Look at me! NO DON'T LOOK AT ME!



Hate to bring it to you but if they get to the fjords we've lost

Hyperlynx
Sep 13, 2015

What's typical airspeed and altitude for air-to-air refuelling? I suspect my training mission is too low and too slow - 20,000ft and 220kt.

Xakura
Jan 10, 2019

A safety-conscious little mouse!

Hyperlynx posted:

What's typical airspeed and altitude for air-to-air refuelling? I suspect my training mission is too low and too slow - 20,000ft and 220kt.

Indicated airspeed is what matters, and should be around 275-315 knots for fighters. Mission editor is dumb in that it takes ground speed as an argument, so you have to calculate IAS for each altitude you place it at.

(I assume you're not tanking an A-10, which would quite like 220 knots)

Saukkis
May 16, 2003

Unless I'm on the inside curve pointing straight at oncoming traffic the high beams stay on and I laugh at your puny protest flashes.
I am Most Important Man. Most Important Man in the World.

Hyperlynx posted:

What's typical airspeed and altitude for air-to-air refuelling? I suspect my training mission is too low and too slow - 20,000ft and 220kt.

Only registered members can see post attachments!

Hyperlynx
Sep 13, 2015

Xakura posted:

Indicated airspeed is what matters, and should be around 275-315 knots for fighters. Mission editor is dumb in that it takes ground speed as an argument, so you have to calculate IAS for each altitude you place it at.

(I assume you're not tanking an A-10, which would quite like 220 knots)

A Viper.

Honestly, I didn't realise tankers are happy going at fighter speeds, so I picked something low.

Corky Romanovsky
Oct 1, 2006

Soiled Meat

Hyperlynx posted:

A Viper.

Honestly, I didn't realise tankers are happy going at fighter speeds, so I picked something low.

There's a built-in instant action on the Caucasus map that has it all set up.

Hyperlynx
Sep 13, 2015

Ah, I did have it set to 300, and was running afoul of that being true speed rather than indicated. Seemed to go better at the higher speed. I managed a few thousand pounds of fuel this time. The hard part seems to be controlling my speed...

It seems like gentle stick movements is the thing, but quite aggressive throttle adjustments, and there seems to be much more of a delay between throttle adjustment and result compared with stick adjustment and result.

Corky Romanovsky posted:

There's a built-in instant action on the Caucasus map that has it all set up.

I think I tried it, and it has the tanker flying a standard holding pattern. While I'm learning, I just have the tanker flying off in a straight line for ages.

Xakura
Jan 10, 2019

A safety-conscious little mouse!

Hyperlynx posted:

It seems like gentle stick movements is the thing, but quite aggressive throttle adjustments, and there seems to be much more of a delay between throttle adjustment and result compared with stick adjustment and result.

Welcome to jet aircraft. Not familiar with the vipe, but a bit of constant airbrake can help.

Congrats on tanking at all, that's not a skill every goon possess! :radcat:

Hyperlynx
Sep 13, 2015

Xakura posted:

Welcome to jet aircraft. Not familiar with the vipe, but a bit of constant airbrake can help.

Congrats on tanking at all, that's not a skill every goon possess! :radcat:

Thanks!

I've been listening to a lot of military aviation podcasts lately, and it's something they talk about just doing like it's no big deal. They'll just say "and then I hit the tanker, got gas, and went and blah blah blah". And I think carrier planes take off without much fuel and go top up as a matter of course?

Anyway, I started thinking "yes it's hard to learn, but it's a standard part of flying the thing". And besides, the Viper doesn't carry much fuel. It'd be really nice to not have to nurse my fuel so much, so that I can let loose with the afterburner more often. As it is, I barely use it unless I absolutely have to.

Dandywalken
Feb 11, 2014

Ive never once had to.

Heli gang keeps winning

Paingod556
Nov 8, 2011

Not a problem, sir

Dandywalken posted:

Ive never once had to.

Heli gang keeps winning

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAdpKpppZiA

Chubby Henparty
Aug 13, 2007


What's got the best throttle reaction time? Like I'd guess the hornet if only from easy ground landings where it feels like the e bracket follows the throttle 121

e: now thinking about this vid, (I think from here) with tankers fueling tankers fueling one bomber traveling across the Atlantic https://youtu.be/e5yAtuYPHK4?si=uk_dcKaM2Fs1pqsU

Chubby Henparty fucked around with this message at 18:07 on May 7, 2024

Tippis
Mar 21, 2008

It's yet another day in the wasteland.

Chubby Henparty posted:

What's got the best throttle reaction time? Like I'd guess the hornet if only from easy ground landings where it feels like the e bracket follows the throttle 121

e: now thinking about this vid, (I think from here) with tankers fueling tankers fueling one bomber traveling across the Atlantic https://youtu.be/e5yAtuYPHK4?si=uk_dcKaM2Fs1pqsU

Oh wow. The Hornet is infamous for its hilariously lethargic throttle response.

For “good”, you probably have to look at something like the F-14 or F-15 (just too much power), F-16 (a lightweight rocket ship)… and of course the Viggen because of the utter insanity of strapping an afterburner onto a jumbojet engine. But then, as far as aerial refuelling, it's not part of the competition to begin with. :haw:

Chubby Henparty
Aug 13, 2007


Fair enough - only ever done barely passable refuels in the A4 so far so never paid attention to it that closely.

Super trailer:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A3uvo2Ohesg

Bedurndurn
Dec 4, 2008
I think throttle response is dependent on where you are in the throttle's range too. I know the A-10 landing tutorials has you pop out your speedbrakes while you're landing so that you're working in the mid area of the throttle.


quote:

I've been listening to a lot of military aviation podcasts lately, and it's something they talk about just doing like it's no big deal. They'll just say "and then I hit the tanker, got gas, and went and blah blah blah". And I think carrier planes take off without much fuel and go top up as a matter of course?

It's hard, but it's literally their job to be good at it. By the time they've gotten to the stage of their career where they talk about poo poo on a podcast, it could actually be something they've done a thousand times. In the book I read about the harrier in Afghanistan, the dude flew something like 100+ sorties over the year he was there and tanked at least twice on each of them. He also talked about having to fly the jets over from the west coast to Afghanistan and his flight of 6 harriers were just following a tanker while constantly cycling which of them were refueling because they had to maintain a high fuel reserve in case one of them hit a problem and had to divert.

Kalman
Jan 17, 2010

Bedurndurn posted:

In the book I read about the harrier in Afghanistan, the dude flew something like 100+ sorties over the year he was there and tanked at least twice on each of them. He also talked about having to fly the jets over from the west coast to Afghanistan and his flight of 6 harriers were just following a tanker while constantly cycling which of them were refueling because they had to maintain a high fuel reserve in case one of them hit a problem and had to divert.

If you want a deeply terrifying refueling story, can I recommend https://www.twz.com/air/f-5-pilots-double-engine-flameout-while-refueling-over-the-atlantic ?

MrYenko
Jun 18, 2012

#2 isn't ALWAYS bad...

Bedurndurn posted:

I think throttle response is dependent on where you are in the throttle's range too. I know the A-10 landing tutorials has you pop out your speedbrakes while you're landing so that you're working in the mid area of the throttle.

That’s a pretty common technique used in real-world A-10 operations, and was exceedingly common on early carrier jets as well. They had even worse throttle response than a TF34, and speed brakes will stow faster than an engine will spool.

Hyperlynx
Sep 13, 2015

Bedurndurn posted:

It's hard, but it's literally their job to be good at it. By the time they've gotten to the stage of their career where they talk about poo poo on a podcast, it could actually be something they've done a thousand times.

True. Still, feels like something worth practicing if nothing more than to get better at handling the jet.

quote:

I know the A-10 landing tutorials has you pop out your speedbrakes while you're landing so that you're working in the mid area of the throttle.
It never occurred to me that speedbrakes on landing isn't universal, but then I only fly one jet :v:

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Bondematt
Jan 26, 2007

Not too stupid
The F5 is a blast to land on short fields, cause you get decent speed brakes and a cute lil' chute.

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