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EDIT: or I could just stick to posting about things I know something about.
waderockett fucked around with this message at 01:50 on Aug 19, 2022 |
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Aug 19, 2022 00:54
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I didn't read the part about her dying. That makes it pretty 
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Aug 19, 2022 01:50
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Night10194 posted:"I did my research and against expert opinion, there ARE differences between races!" is called being racist, actually. Yeah, like, I wasn't being that disingenuous. I just exaggerated one thing he said because going into detail on how his research is thinly veiled racist rambling masquaring as pseudo-intellectual science is a lot effort. Biological race doesn't even exist. It's a cultural concept. Even claiming ancestry is a bit of a joke. At least with how he does it. It's just someone who held messed up beliefs and stuck to them by twisting facts.
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Aug 19, 2022 02:43
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waderockett posted:EDIT: or I could just stick to posting about things I know something about. It's too late! We've already read your post and now expand the public hating
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Aug 19, 2022 02:51
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ninjoatse.cx posted:It's too late! We've already read your post and now expand the public hating Dammit In short, I read the blog post and felt like a much better and less incendiary tweet summarizing his views would have been, "Racists want us to believe there are vast differences between 'races', but scientists studying the human genome have found that there's insignificant biological differences between people born on different continents." However! I don't know any more about the topic of continental ancestry than a Google search and Wikipedia browse provides. It seems to be innocuous? waderockett fucked around with this message at 03:06 on Aug 19, 2022 |
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Aug 19, 2022 03:01
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NinjaDebugger posted:Cannot same this hard enough. He's a poo poo and a bad designer. Night10194 posted:Honestly, the fact that he thinks Tweet is necessary to the game's design says bad things about him as a developer, not just 'I need my race realist rear end in a top hat buddy we swore not to work with', because Tweet's contributions to the game's design hurt it. Please list ALL of Jonathan's contributions to the game. There's a whole lot certainty here that anything a person doesn't like about 13th Age must be Jonathan's doing while anything they do like must have come from Rob. So let's see the evidence for this.
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Aug 19, 2022 05:18
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waderockett posted:Dammit It's a trick question. Intent never matters, the public hatings just exist to be fed  I think it was goon-y thing to post, but not malevolent.
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Aug 19, 2022 05:20
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You know, I'm not even gonna bother with this thread. A guy mealy mouth saying "there is slight genetic differences from people from different continents" is certainly some poo poo. We going to consider Europe and Asia are the same continent? Because they are the same continent actually. Even without that concession, how about Russia being in Asia? India? How about East Asians and South East Asians? It's just a mealy mouthed way of saying race with contients being a figleaf for the belief. Tweet is actually talking about race but spending a ton of overthinking and huge words to make a point that is both scientifically wrong and would be nonsensical if respect for other people was an inherent part of his mental axiom. But what's the point? Y'all just want your shiny toy and your morality on the subject comes second. Since Pelgrane and Rob told y'all you can only get your new edition if you accept a racist will be a dev on it, you're backpeddling to make excuses. And now we're basically at the "It's all cancel culture" point of this discussion. There's too many important things to care about to focus on this anymore. I'm not supporting the KS and I'll tell everyone I know not to support it either.
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Aug 19, 2022 05:29
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Some questionable language in there, I will say that. I see crypto-fascist talking points. "My fellow progressives -- especially the younger ones -- will get angry at me for saying this, but there are real biological differences between races. What if you were given a liver transplant and the liver came from a black guy and it didn't work? It's not politics, just reality." I've also never seen someone refer to any group of people as "sub-Saharan" who deserved anyone's attention, but that's probably just because I read comment sections. Oh, and medical racism is a thing. Medical professionals say and do racist poo poo all the time, claiming black people don't feel pain as intensely and should be watched closely for drug-seeking behavior and such.
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Aug 19, 2022 05:39
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ninjoatse.cx posted:It's a trick question. Intent never matters, the public hatings just exist to be fed It's not goony, it's literally him going "We need to teach the controversy! We need to have a measured debate on this topic!"  And it's multiple tweets. Here's another one: http://web.archive.org/web/20190518215918/https://twitter.com/JonathanMTweet/status/1129825008035946498 This isn't a matter that needs to be debated. It's a matter that needs to be debunked. But he doesn't think it needs debunking because he thinks there's "half truths" and it's "legitimate." Or like if he doesn't actually think this stuff he could clarify this at any point but hasn't bothered? And this is the Guardian article that I think sparked stuff: https://www.theguardian.com/books/2019/may/18/race-science-on-the-rise-angela-saini I don't know why he decided this is what he wanted to launch a "Now's the time to bring back race science debates!" to it though, given that the article repeatedly states there is no difference across continents and genetics are more likely to be similar to people you're close to over anything else. Nuns with Guns fucked around with this message at 05:47 on Aug 19, 2022 |
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Aug 19, 2022 05:42
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Ragnar34 posted:Oh, and medical racism is a thing. Medical professionals say and do racist poo poo all the time, claiming black people don't feel pain as intensely and should be watched closely for drug-seeking behavior and such. Very much so. It was and still is in some medical textbooks and is only slowly being rooted out. Hell, until very recently they reported kidney function differently in 'persons of african descent' and just recently my doctor's office stopped doing so as practices changed and they realized that was nonsense.
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Aug 19, 2022 05:46
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Covok posted:You know, I'm not even gonna bother with this thread. A guy mealy mouth saying "there is slight genetic differences from people from different continents" is certainly some poo poo. We going to consider Europe and Asia are the same continent? Because they are the same continent actually. Even without that concession, how about Russia being in Asia? India? How about East Asians and South East Asians? It's just a mealy mouthed way of saying race with contients being a figleaf for the belief. Tweet is actually talking about race but spending a ton of overthinking and huge words to make a point that is both scientifically wrong and would be nonsensical if respect for other people was an inherent part of his mental axiom. what the gently caress are you talking about, gamer this thread is like 80% people saying either "well, I'm not going to buy the game because of Tweet, whether or not he's a racist, because I think he's a lovely designer" or "well, I'm not going to buy the game because of Tweet, the racist" and 20% people saying "well, he might not be an actively malicious racist, just a well-meaning dumbass without any self-reflection" and this where you decide to storm off like you're loving Dirty Harry tossing away his badge? "I'm sick of breathing the same air as the rest of you spineless hypocrites crawling over one another to justify your sick desire for an updated set of 13th Age rules. Why, the lot of you would sell your own grandmothers out to the KKK! I'm leaving, you hear me?! I've got better things to worry about! I'm done! And I'm telling everyone I know to do the same!" e: im not buying the game either and jonathan tweet sucks, but you dont have to transform into a self-righteousness elemental to say that.
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Aug 19, 2022 05:50
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Covok posted:You know, I'm not even gonna bother with this thread. A guy mealy mouth saying "there is slight genetic differences from people from different continents" is certainly some poo poo. We going to consider Europe and Asia are the same continent? Because they are the same continent actually. Even without that concession, how about Russia being in Asia? India? How about East Asians and South East Asians? It's just a mealy mouthed way of saying race with contients being a figleaf for the belief. Tweet is actually talking about race but spending a ton of overthinking and huge words to make a point that is both scientifically wrong and would be nonsensical if respect for other people was an inherent part of his mental axiom. source your quotes my dude
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Aug 19, 2022 05:59
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HomegrownHydra posted:Please list ALL of Jonathan's contributions to the game. There's a whole lot certainty here that anything a person doesn't like about 13th Age must be Jonathan's doing while anything they do like must have come from Rob. So let's see the evidence for this.
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Aug 19, 2022 06:11
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I don't think arguing for or against Tweet by proxy is going to be too fruitful, especially when his varying statements over time makes it a moving target. I'd like to think we're all on the same place standing in opposition to things like race science and anything that dances around it (mind, actual genetics is another story), and that we don't need to litigate by proxy. He's made his statements, most folks connected to the 13th Age online community know, and people can decide for themselves. Clearly, his statements have hurt, and I think that's the main issue here; no amount of debate here will fix that. We can't shove words back in his mouth. It's not a simple issue, of course; as a freelancer, everybody I've worked with at Pelgrane has been wonderful and I've been glad to write in their sandbox. Things haven't been easy over the COVID times and I want to see them truck on. Moreover, there are really toxic folks that have worked for big companies to a far longer and greater extent, but they get papered over because their names aren't singularly associated with a project like this is, and some goons are content to overlook that. That's not to do a whatabout argument, but just to say we all have our own boundaries and opinions in regards to what we expect and want from creators and companies. This is why I think statements of intent in games have become really important in my own games, to make it clear where I stand on things like this, but that's just my own standard. I put in a full sidebar explaining that Mutants in the Now, a game inextricably tied to at least a comic book definition of genetics, rejects the use of such to make value judgements on people. 13th Age Escalation Edition is moving on with more progressive ideas regarding fantasy folk. But at the same time, having Tweet involved and ostensibly collecting a paycheck is going to be too much for some given his public statements outside of the game. And that's valid. Like Wade, it's not about me; I'm not involved with the new edition. But there are a lot of cool folks here, and I'd rather not see us doing harm to each other.
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Aug 19, 2022 06:42
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Ragnar34 posted:Some questionable language in there, I will say that. I see crypto-fascist talking points. "My fellow progressives -- especially the younger ones -- will get angry at me for saying this, but there are real biological differences between races. What if you were given a liver transplant and the liver came from a black guy and it didn't work? It's not politics, just reality." I've also never seen someone refer to any group of people as "sub-Saharan" who deserved anyone's attention, but that's probably just because I read comment sections. Thanks for this, I’ve been trying to figure out how to say this for a few days. Yes. Regardless of what’s in the man’s heart, he expresses some of his opinions in the language used by people I very much dislike, and they use that language in the service of racism and bigotry. Perhaps it’s the evolutionary psychology background, who knows? But it makes me uncomfortable enough to want to avoid books with his name on them.
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Aug 19, 2022 14:46
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This has been a really disappointing development all around. In 10 years, it probably won't matter what racist myths Tweet believes, no longer believes, has embraced or grown out of. All that will remain is another hardcover book where he's ruined the monk.
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Aug 19, 2022 15:29
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Running a Halloween one-shot for my buds, going for "somewhat regular folks" characters but instead of One Unique Thing I'm asking them for One Spooky Thing. We've already come up with the idea of a travelling nun, who has a ghostly bell toll around her at the stroke of midnight. Second PC isn't as fleshed out yet, but basically Hodor. Currently bracing for the other shoe to drop because I'm sure the third guy wants to play the headless horseman himself and if I'm especially lucky he'll suggest his one buddy join in and that guy's gonna play a panto witch with a visibly stuffed bra or something.
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Oct 13, 2022 21:59
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Yeah, whenever anyone talks about what liberals won’t let them say, it’s because what they want to say is poo poo nobody with half a brain wants to hear. It’s a shame, 13th age is probably my favorite DnDlike. Eyes of the Stone Thief was a lot of fun to run, and I was looking forward to running it for my daughter and some friends. Now I’m definitely not buying the new books, and I’m likely to just look for a system run by someone less interested in talking about how the liberals won’t let him teach the truth of race science.
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Oct 24, 2022 05:28
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Rob Heinsoo interview about 13th Age 2e on the Iconic podcast: https://iconicpodcast.com/2022/09/19/s6-e12-13th-age-second-edition-interview-with-rob-heinsoo-part-1/ https://iconicpodcast.com/2022/10/03/s6-e13-13th-age-second-edition-interview-with-rob-heinsoo-part-2/ Rob’s update on the playtest packet—he’s aiming to get it out November 4th. http://robheinsoo.blogspot.com/2022/10/re-remembering-dragon-empire.html?m=1
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Oct 31, 2022 10:43
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Based on the interview,13th Age 2nd Edition sounds like it could be cool and I'm looking forward to getting a look at the playtest doc.
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Oct 31, 2022 12:06
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Eh, I signed up for my group to test. We've been playing 13A so I'm looking forward to it.
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Oct 31, 2022 13:28
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My friend (our DM) signed up, so I'm interested to see how it is. Also, the credit for our group in the final version will be funny and dumb (I'll share it when it shows up).
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Oct 31, 2022 15:49
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I hope apart from classes and such 2nd edition also takes a look at the system that tells you how much a monster is worth in an encounter, cause I've been looking into it lately for a personal project and it's an absolute mess. For one thing: it needs a unified terminology. Right now monsters can be huge or large or double strength or elite or weaklings or mooks, some of which terms mean the same thing and some of which combine to modify ratings, sometimes in documented ways and sometimes not. (I've seen weakling mooks and double-strength elites in there.) For another: I don't really buy that the ratings system is so robust that you can make a meaningful distinction between a lower level monster that's worth 0.3 and one that's worth 0.2 or even 0.15 normal monsters, while higher level ones just immediately jump into being worth multiples of each other. And especially when there's a paragraph right above the respective table that tells you the system for mooks as presented doesn't even really work from experience. Just for starters: maybe it's a good idea to drop mooks as individual creatures from the equation. Instead, maybe there could be a few normal monsters whose stat blocks represent a squad of mooks in some way. Multiple attacks or multiple initiative counts, I don't even really know. But that would remove some of the more outlandish examples on the lower end of the scaling, and also remove the term that causes the most confusion when combined with another modifier (I mean seriously, weakling mook). And then make the system for strong and superstrong enemies simple and consistent in name. That should largely solve it. As an advanced kind of approach, maybe you could even scrap the entire idea of double/triple strength monsters and just make those monsters higher level. 13th Age's ten level system and the escalation die do enable PCs to scrap with higher level creatures quite well, given a little luck. That way the scaling would be as simple as can be. addendum: possibly less a systemic problem than an editorial one, with the terminology also as an aside none of my players have ever really bought into the idea that mook damage spills over. If you split a mob of mooks across the battlefield, at some point someone's gonna chuck a fireball at a group of two and kill all five present with spillover damage. My players tend to respond to this not by saying "hell yeah got 'em" but by saying "but how, I guess it just happens cause the system says so, whatever." If you keep a mob together at all times you might as well model them as a single stat block as mentioned above. Or are you supposed to stop the spillover once it becomes unrealistic? Is this one of those things where you have to be familiar with the source (Feng Shui?) to really get what 13th Age is trying to do? My Lovely Horse fucked around with this message at 11:22 on Nov 1, 2022 |
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Nov 1, 2022 10:56
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Spillover damage requires some creative narration - describe cutting them down effortlessly as they stand frozen in fear, running away, dispatching each other in a panic, whatever. If every time it's "you shoot one arrow and two die," then yeah people get bored if it. Remember, they're fighting a mob of mooks, not individuals.
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Nov 1, 2022 12:19
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My new-to-RPGs player on his first mook overkill described it "as I smash his face with my dwarven hammer, a tooth goes flying like a bullet" and I knew we had a winner.
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Nov 1, 2022 14:03
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Yeah I do a combination of overkill, extra kill, and "I'm getting out of here!"
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Nov 1, 2022 14:26
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yeah, to me the mooks are a huge part of the over the top hero kind of play our group really enjoys. the wizard teleporting into a huge room full of mooks and laying out like 15 of them with an evoked force salvo in a flurry of kills and overkills and general mayham and destruction of everything -- setting up those scenes at least once per level sustained the campaign for years, frankly
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Nov 1, 2022 16:44
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and then the commander says, why dont you do that again
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Nov 1, 2022 16:45
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I checked my email and the first 2e playtest packet just arrived!quote:Public conversations: We understand that people are going to want to discuss playtest experiences on line, on Discord, and so on. I always used to ask people not to do that, in order to get personal feedback rather than get echo chamber effects from people who debate well on-line. I guess we’ll be fine either way. There are enough of you in this playtest that we’re going to be hearing from all types of players and groups, and a whole lot of you have a lot of experience and/or enthusiasm, so I’m less worried. I think we’re going to get diverse feedback this time around. Aw, no "I Am Enjoying this Playtest" badges this time.
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Nov 10, 2022 06:20
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It looks like the fighter may be unfucked?
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Nov 10, 2022 06:57
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haven't found the 14 words in it yet, are we sure it's the right one
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Nov 10, 2022 12:19
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Probably better to put feedback to the designers rather than discuss unfinished stuff online, even in vague terms. My mistake.
My Lovely Horse fucked around with this message at 15:25 on Nov 10, 2022 |
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Nov 10, 2022 14:32
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Sounds like hiring the racist grog was worth every penny
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Nov 10, 2022 14:50
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You're assuming a lot there, some of which is who wrote what parts
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Nov 10, 2022 14:53
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I'm assuming that it's a half-arsed effort (because that's what you described). I'm saying that attempting to rehabilitate a racist and pissing off a bunch of people who like and support your game, in order to make a bunch of things worse and to do a find and replace errata job, doesn't seem like a reasonable trade-off and makes Rob's claims that he couldn't do this without Tweet seem even more ridiculous. Who wrote what doesn't change any of that.
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Nov 10, 2022 15:06
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Hmm. See, what I thought I'd do was to spark an exchange about the playtest rather than share the hottest playtest gossip fresh off the press and present an authoritative judgment on it, but I can see how I've failed to do that, and I'd rather not accidentally provide ammo for a debate I'm not keen to enter. Please don't take my blunt word for gospel on the quality of something that's very much in flux.
My Lovely Horse fucked around with this message at 15:46 on Nov 10, 2022 |
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Nov 10, 2022 15:25
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I posted here a while back about a homebrew witch class I made - I wanted to get an update in to it before the playtest released, and I almost succeeded. You can find it on Vault of the 13th Age here: https://13thage.org/index.php/classes/718-the-witch I didn't keep track of changes very well before this release, so if you grabbed one of the really early ones there might be quite a lot different, but if you found it on 13thage.org you should have a nice change log to see everything that changed since the last release at the bottom. Hopefully one day I'll finally have some art to go in here to break up the text! Like anyone would be, if you have comments or feedback I'm very interested in hearing it; there's only so much playtesting I can do on my own.
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Nov 10, 2022 16:28
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My Lovely Horse posted:Probably better to put feedback to the designers rather than discuss unfinished stuff online, even in vague terms. My mistake. I mean, discussing the playtest in exacting detail was this whole thread (and also a change in the nda, lol)
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Nov 10, 2022 19:56
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bought a bunch of Cal Moore's stuff recently. Fire & Faith, The Crown Commands and High Magic & Low Cunning each book covers 4 or 5 Icons, with three mini adventures for each Icon. so the Great Gold Wyrm has the following 3 adventures in the Fire & Faith book, for instance:    The Crown Commands: Dwarf King, Elf Queen, Emperor, Lich King High Magic & Low Cunning: Archmage, High Druid, Orc Lord, Prince of Shadows, The Three Fire & Faith: Great Gold Wyrm, The Priestess, the Crusader, the Diabloist (~$20 each on Drive Thru) each adventure has a few hooks to get it started, alternate Icons if they fit your group better, and at the end of each adventure, 3 other adventures this could hook into each encounter has a map, a pretty good section on enemy tactics and in general self contained stat blocks (you aren't going to have to go downloading a copy of the Bestiary 2 to make this work) the maps themselves cleanly copy into Roll20 and try to have interesting terrain, traps, and other things to keep players using their move actions This is from the Gearwork Dungeon, for the Dwarf King in the Crown Commands  but honestly the best part is the artwork throughout that have made absolutely fantastic player handouts    
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Nov 12, 2022 05:08
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