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Skippy McPants posted:I liked it for the most part, but; Eh, An absolutely massively astronomical number of women are sexually assaulted at some point in their life - it seems perfectly reasonable to assume that if one of them is a teenager who can burn people with their mind she's not going to give a poo poo about the First Law. It seems like a very reasonable way to give you a reason to kill someone with magic in a sympathetic manner, considering that almost the only way that it's really morally justified enough to create the moral dilemma he wanted with her character is to kill self defense or against an abuser. It's considerably more likely (and sympathetic) than her blowing up some random mugger, or something. He needed a character that was a killer and criminal, but a sympathetic one, and one that would be vulnerable to Lasciel's influence, to have a proper vehicle for Lasciel to return. Wolpertinger fucked around with this message at 00:18 on May 28, 2014 |
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May 28, 2014 00:15
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So "Genoskwa" apparently translates to "rock man" which explains the earth magic.
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May 28, 2014 00:20
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Fried Chicken posted:So "Genoskwa" apparently translates to "rock man" which explains the earth magic. That sort of reminds me, I wonder what's going to happen in regards to the coins lost in Hades - there's some sort of equilibrium with the Coins, and removing some from the game permanently in a way that they can't be 'recirculated' might allow potentially the Fallen to act in some way to restore that equilibrium.
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May 28, 2014 00:22
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Wolpertinger posted:That sort of reminds me, I wonder what's going to happen in regards to the coins lost in Hades - there's some sort of equilibrium with the Coins, and removing some from the game permanently in a way that they can't be 'recirculated' might allow potentially the Fallen to act in some way to restore that equilibrium. Surely that would be due to free will of the agents involved in the book, so "they" couldn't do anything about it? It's not as if Heaven or Hell directly acted to achieve that.
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May 28, 2014 00:25
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I thought Oberheit was just german for too tall or upper floor or something.
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May 28, 2014 00:26
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Just finished it. It was a good addition to the series. But it doesn't leave me with the same sense of "Oh God! I need the next one like NOW!" that Cold Days did. Which will make the wait for the next one easier. Few thoughts: Sure, Nick is pretty crushed, but I'm really interested to see what he'll do with the grail. Michael said he can't really think of any way for it to be used for evil purposes, but Nick will (or probably already has) thought of something. One of the things I was looking forward to after Cold Days came through on this one. I was childishly excited to see what kind of vessel Harry would put together for Bob. I was super glad to see that he actually did make one. I loved the idea of it being used for the new spirit, but just seeing it was something I thought was good. I wonder if the spirit will be able to tap into Alfred to expand it's knowledge. Or the prisoners in demonreach. Or hell, have Bob mentor her. Butters getting the
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May 28, 2014 00:30
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ImpAtom posted:The feeling I get from it is basically a quiet retcon of its abilities to justify Dresden giving it up without significant power loss in the near future. It really doesn't mesh with everything that was described up until now. Firstly, Harry was a lot less capable back in Summer Knight, so of course the knights seemed like terrifying badasses. He was at the level of power where fighting a Knight was an "oh poo poo" moment; now he is at the level of power where fighting a Knight is pretty meh. The other thing is that we only have Butter's speculation that that is how the Mantles work, based on his observations of Harry's healing. Back in Cold Days, Fix does a ~37 foot wire-fu leaping sword attack from a standing start, and he does it effortlessly; Harry's sure he could have gone further. In comparison, the record for a standing long jump is something like 12 feet. You don't get that kind of power by just removing the governor on the human physique. What I think it might be is that Harry's not using the full potential of the mantle. This could be because Harry puts so much effort into keeping Winter down and under control, while Fix is far more in tune with his inner Summer. If this is the case, maybe part of the reason Mab wanted Harry as a Knight so badly is to have a Knight who can fight at those levels of power without having to give into it. Khizan fucked around with this message at 01:08 on May 28, 2014 |
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May 28, 2014 01:03
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Khizan posted:Firstly, Harry was a lot less capable back in Summer Knight, so of course the knights seemed like terrifying badasses. He was at the level of power where fighting a Knight was an "oh poo poo" moment; now he is at the level of power where fighting a Knight is pretty meh. Actually, didn't Butters say in the Skin Game text say (I know it's speculation, but just in case) that the "governor" on the human physique limited humans to roughly 1/3rd of their potential? And Harry realized even without the mantle in the Tessa fight that he was much stronger because of his training beyond what he normally would have been capable of, and the 37' jump cited is roughly three times the 12' that you cite. I'd say that's pretty credible actually.
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May 28, 2014 01:47
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Wolpertinger posted:Eh, An absolutely massively astronomical number of women are sexually assaulted at some point in their life - it seems perfectly reasonable to assume that if one of them is a teenager who can burn people with their mind she's not going to give a poo poo about the First Law. It seems like a very reasonable way to give you a reason to kill someone with magic in a sympathetic manner, considering that almost the only way that it's really morally justified enough to create the moral dilemma he wanted with her character is to kill self defense or against an abuser. It's considerably more likely (and sympathetic) than her blowing up some random mugger, or something. He needed a character that was a killer and criminal, but a sympathetic one, and one that would be vulnerable to Lasciel's influence, to have a proper vehicle for Lasciel to return. Well the reason it is lazy is because that is the most use backstory/motive of any female character. There are a lot of reasons why it is lovely overused writing. But I don't want to get into it cause we got a new Dresden book to chat about so I will just link you to this http://postcardsfromspace.tumblr.com/post/75007069989/can-a-male-author-write-a-comicbook-to-justice There are other ways to do all that and rape is the laziest most sexist way
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May 28, 2014 01:48
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Hixalot posted:Actually, didn't Butters say in the Skin Game text say (I know it's speculation, but just in case) that the "governor" on the human physique limited humans to roughly 1/3rd of their potential? And Harry realized even without the mantle in the Tessa fight that he was much stronger because of his training beyond what he normally would have been capable of, and the 37' jump cited is roughly three times the 12' that you cite. I'd say that's pretty credible actually. His point, and he's right, is that disabling our self inhibitors does not triple our physical capability. Not even close. If it is a retcon, and not just butters spitballing, then it's a really bad retcon. We've seen Harry and Fix do things that are not inside the realm of human physical output. In Cold Days Harry mentions that he does working sets at 400 kg (~880 pounds). World class weightlifting competitors can't do even half of that on a single lift. KellHound posted:There are other ways to do all that and rape is the laziest most sexist way This. And it's particularly galling in this instance since because Butcher actually took the time to give her some decent characterization. She was already sympathetic, resorting to a lovely sexist cliche was totally unnecessary. Skippy McPants fucked around with this message at 02:06 on May 28, 2014 |
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May 28, 2014 01:58
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Honestly I want to just see Butters fail utterly at being a Knight and get killed or crippled after a mission or two. The guy became a Knight pretty much on pluck alone, but let's face it, he's completely in over his head. Even if Michael, who is crippled, Sanya, who is constantly busy, or Murphy, who will need months of PT to return to form, manage to train him on a few sword techniques, there is no way at Butters' age (middle) and level of fitness (poor) he will acquire a reasonable level of skill needed to go up against the beasties Knights face off against. And given how busy Knights are, I doubt he'd be able to sit out the multiple years he'd need to develop those skills from scratch. Regarding Ascher... While Rape as Backstory is an immensely lovely and sexist way to lend "depth" and "motivation" to a female character, I couldn't help but laugh when that bomb dropped. Why? Well, while I am not a multiple best selling author of a long running book series, I would think if that I'm going to be using a rape backstory to make my female villain sympathetic, I should avoid waiting until the Very last minute when she and the hero are fighting to the death while wasting valuable page time earlier in the book on having the first person narrator and other males comment on how attractive she is. But hey, who am I to say? Mars4523 fucked around with this message at 02:23 on May 28, 2014 |
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May 28, 2014 02:08
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Mars4523 posted:Honestly I want to just see Butters fail utterly at being a Knight and get killed or crippled after a mission or two. The guy became a Knight pretty much on pluck alone, but let's face it, he's completely in over his head. Even if Michael, who is crippled, Sanya, who is constantly busy, or Murphy, who will need months of PT to return to form, manage to train him on a few sword techniques, there is no way at Butters' age (middle) and level of fitness (poor) he will acquire a reasonable level of skill needed to go up against the beasties Knights face off against. And given how busy Knights are, I doubt he'd be able to sit out the multiple years he'd need to develop those skills from scratch. But...he's a knight with Bob, and uses him as a cool power source. So, he has his own r2 and c3po to make up for his slack at the beginning E: oh hell eventually the two spirits of intellect will be referenced as r2d2 and c3po, I'm calling it right now 
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May 28, 2014 02:46
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Honestly I'm kind of dissapointed with Skin Game. Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed reading the book, and it and it was worth $12 but I feel unsatisfied. The action scenes were well written and flowed nicely but I can't help feeling like 400-odd pages (and a year and a half) later almost none of the cliffhangers, big reveals, or plot hints from the last 3 books went anywhere exceptthe Harry/Murphy love interest which is the least interesting storyline. TBH I kind of hope Murphy has been sidelined tempor-permanantly by her injuries so that Jim can write about characters I care about, especially since Molly's character progressed farther in all of 2 pages than Murphy did in the first 200.The new elements/characters look interesting, but they all ended up in the "not going to give any detail until 2016" pile. I'm also really dissapointed in the amount of things happening offscreen. I'm getting sick of reading for 3 books in a row the line "It's getting bad out there." whenever anyone refers to the Formor. If I had to describe my feeling about Skingame it's probably about the same as if I ordered a pizza, but instead of it being a meat lover's special from my favourite shop, it turned out to be from a generic chain. It's edible, with enough cheese to keep me chewing, but stingy enough on the meat to make me want more, especially when I know how awesome good pizza can be.
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May 28, 2014 02:47
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DrFrankenStrudel posted:TBH I kind of hope Murphy has been sidelined tempor-permanantly by her injuries so that Jim can write about characters I care about, especially since Molly's character progressed farther in all of 2 pages than Murphy did in the first 200. I don't think we'll have that much luck. I was hoping that Butcher could get the character back on track, but if she was going to die/retire/become interesting then this relative lull was his big chance to make it happen, and it flopped, badly. She's probably just going to keep taking up space as PTSD riddled action chick until the series runs its course.
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May 28, 2014 02:57
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Khizan posted:Firstly, Harry was a lot less capable back in Summer Knight, so of course the knights seemed like terrifying badasses. He was at the level of power where fighting a Knight was an "oh poo poo" moment; now he is at the level of power where fighting a Knight is pretty meh. That doesn't make sense though. The Winter Knight is big mojo. That's the entire point of the Winter Knight. To go from that to "oh, well, it isn't really THAT important" doesn't make sense with the fact that the Winter Knight is a tremendously big deal. If that is what we're supposed to take away from it then it's pretty dumb. It being a retcon is a lot more likely.
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May 28, 2014 03:07
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I've always liked Murphy, and she's actually the character that drew me to the series. She wasn't so much mishandled here as she was not really used at all, brought in and then promptly shoved offscreen while Harry leers at boring sexy warlock chick, or to play the thankless role of Harry's second. Up until the point that that she gets unceremoniously taken out of commission and replaced with the lesser Michael (I like the retired Michael better) who plays the thankless role of Harry's second for the rest of the book. Probably could have cut a few pointless battle scenes in favor of more character work, for Murphy (who hasn't gotten a focus in books, this one included) to the newer, still undeveloped ones. I can only hope that she gets some focus in Peace Talks (which looks more Molly focused). Let her take a more active role, dabble in the occult of Odin's people, etc etc.
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May 28, 2014 03:22
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Mars4523 posted:Honestly I want to just see Butters fail utterly at being a Knight and get killed or crippled after a mission or two. The guy became a Knight pretty much on pluck alone, but let's face it, he's completely in over his head. Even if Michael, who is crippled, Sanya, who is constantly busy, or Murphy, who will need months of PT to return to form, manage to train him on a few sword techniques, there is no way at Butters' age (middle) and level of fitness (poor) he will acquire a reasonable level of skill needed to go up against the beasties Knights face off against. And given how busy Knights are, I doubt he'd be able to sit out the multiple years he'd need to develop those skills from scratch. Hey man, what, don't you have any Faith in Butters? I mean after all he's got the force with him. You're being just like Luke in assuming that the old little green talk-weird guy couldn't possibly be Yoda But yes I do agree with the Ascher bit. Combined with Harry's internal monologues that are still cringeworthy despite the excuse of the Winter Mantle, its at best a really poor writing choice. Aside from that though, I thought that the whole Lash (brief) return was pretty weak, especially given how much backstory she and Dresden have. Anyway, I actually suspect that what Michael says is true and that Nick can't really bend the Grail to any truly sinister purpose. Which would mean that, despite him being an absolute monster and now harboring a hatred for Harry that probably eclipses that he feels for the Knights, he might actually want the Grail to do something genuinely good with it. Probably self-serving in some way, but also will end protect a lot of people or save them or something. Not that it matters too much, we're all fairly certain that the Grail wasn't his primary objective, but I feel like the next time he shows up Dresden might have an ethical crisis.
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May 28, 2014 03:25
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Mars4523 posted:I've always liked Murphy, and she's actually the character that drew me to the series. She wasn't so much mishandled here as she was not really used at all, brought in and then promptly shoved offscreen while Harry leers at boring sexy warlock chick, or to play the thankless role of Harry's second. She's mishandled, because she isn't used at all. Murphy didn't used to be a completely one dimensional character, but all her personal conflicts have been resolved or stagnant since Proven Guilty. For the last seven books all she's done is be Harry's buddy and pitch in on a couple action scenes. She doesn't need magic, or a sword, or whateverelse the gently caress. Her problem isn't combat relevance, her problem is that combat relevance is all she has. I guess technically she and Harry are probably screwing now, but their sexual tension has always been one of the least interesting things in the entire series. It really is telling that Molly got more development and nuance in the span of about three or four pages than Murphy got in several hundred. I don't think Butcher has any idea what to do with her outside of action set pieces. Skippy McPants fucked around with this message at 03:36 on May 28, 2014 |
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May 28, 2014 03:33
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Logan 5 posted:But yes I do agree with the Ascher bit. Combined with Harry's internal monologues that are still cringeworthy despite the excuse of the Winter Mantle, its at best a really poor writing choice. Aside from that though, I thought that the whole Lash (brief) return was pretty weak, especially given how much backstory she and Dresden have. Yeah, that was not a great reveal, nor comeback. It was built up for quite a while and then Harry just curb stomps her without even having to break the first law. A lot of work went into both Ascher and Lasciel only to have it fizzle out at the finish line.
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May 28, 2014 03:39
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Not the best Dresden book, but its alright. Maybe at the level of a Small Favor or Proven Guilty. Not nearly as good as Cold Days, Turn Coat, Changes, or Dead Beat though. Nicodemus is working against the Outsiders and I suspect that's the actual Enemy being referenced. It fits with his reaction at the aquarium back in the day, and Deirdre's talk of saving the world. I am guessing Tessa is Nemesis infected or just didn't want Deirdre dead. She perhaps had her own grand plans for her, that didn't involve killing her, and had been brewing for fifteen centuries. Or she'd been Nemesis infected that long, I don't know. Considering the later alliance with Nicodemus, I am more inclined to believe she was trying to save Deirdre. Harry's staff is cool. Seems to be a good deal better than his old one, though he could use a lot more charms. While not a lot of great action compared to Cold Days, I admit I had a "hell yeah" reaction to how he deflected Ascher's first assault on him with just a massive wave of force. Then meeting her fire by redirecting it was pretty rad, considering that's never been Harry's forte in the past. I appreciated the comparatively subtle bit of magic rather than just a shield. Also it has some kind of connection with Demonreach and the magic there, considering the color the runes light up. Maybe we'll get more of that in a future book. 5 items, the grail, shroud, INRI sign, crown, and probably spear. I like Grey. He is like Kincaid but he's also someone that was putting on an act for the entire book. Would Kincaid take only a dollar in payment? No. Grey is probably a much better person than Kincaid, and I wonder if his "paying the Rent" has to do with being allowed to walk the Earth as a non-evil Naagloshi. Some sort of quota of good deeds. eta: On mantle power, I am pretty sure Mab gave Harry extra power in Changes because the deal specified she would give him power to accomplish his task for that night. He did get a lot weaker between now and Cold Days though. I wonder if it's either trepidation on his part, straight retcon, or Mab intentionally depowering his Mantle. I think the last would be most interesting, and it did happen when Harry added some more Fairie Ladies to his kill count and spent a lot of time on Demonreach, a being implied to be able to imprison Mab. She might have a touch of fear there. SerSpook fucked around with this message at 03:53 on May 28, 2014 |
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May 28, 2014 03:39
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Another thing to think about... regarding Ascher anyway. She might be lying. She's got a fallen angel in her head, she knew the whole time that Harry was basically fighting to not give into winter and the whole sex crazed maniac feelings he has, so busting out a "horrible rape story" in the middle of a big fight to shake him up makes sense. Doesn't matter if it's true or not. Harry is a big softy. If he wasn't, then he would basically not be Harry. Some poor downtrodden girl who GASP was raped and that's the ONLY REASON she killed someone with magic (you know, just like Harry did as a kid) might be someone you would try to take it easy on, and end up with a knife in the ribs for it. He didn't, cause he's not stupid, but it seems like a perfectly logical gambit to make when you have the same fallen angel in your head that he had in his, who knows him and how he thinks. Or knew him, and how he thought, before he became all winterized. Just my take on it. Regarding the Mantle, I think Harry just isn't accessing it as much. The previous Knights kinda went into it full blast. used the power as much as possible, and were complete monsters and assholes. Harry is only using the power when he absolutely needs to. That might be why he's not exactly coming across as the superman that a lot of people thought he would be.
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May 28, 2014 04:02
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Skippy McPants posted:She's mishandled, because she isn't used at all. Murphy didn't used to be a completely one dimensional character, but all her personal conflicts have been resolved or stagnant since Proven Guilty. For the last seven books all she's done is be Harry's buddy and pitch in on a couple action scenes. She doesn't need magic, or a sword, or whateverelse the gently caress. Her problem isn't combat relevance, her problem is that combat relevance is all she has. I guess technically she and Harry are probably screwing now, but their sexual tension has always been one of the least interesting things in the entire series. Nah, this is just wrong. literally the first thing that comes up when we, other fans, or other people in the books talk about Murphy is "how does she remain relevant as Harry's powers increase seemingly without bound?" Every book Harry grows more powerful, both magically - and now physically, too. He used to be this scrappy guy with a big bag of tricks that Murphy saved a lot by being the warrior. Now he's a warrior too. He shoots, he kills, he's physically able. Meanwhile the books have been going to pains to show Murphy aging. So that's the question: relevance, and this book brings it home for Harry. Think about previous climaxes: often Mirphy is there, kicking rear end and taking names. She drives him along with the Wild Hunt in Cold Days. In this book, she's out of her class from the beginning, actually realizes it, and gets knocked out right before the climax. In a way that brings someone who has the magical chops to actually help to the fore. It's the ultimate kick in the nuts for someone who's been embodying the ultimate in physical competence: you are no longer competent. And not only is it brought home to her it's brought home to Harry. Meanwhile, he's been calling her Karrin in the internal monologue. He's not talking about good people. He's not even really physically describing her - reread those parts. He, and Butcher, are realizing that they're part of each other's lives and they (and we) know it. Then at the end of the book they finally kiss and stick with it. The events of this book are the single biggest change in their relationship literally ever. It's cataclysmic ally stupid to say that she doesn't grow over the course of the book.
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May 28, 2014 04:07
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Mars4523 posted:Honestly I want to just see Butters fail utterly at being a Knight and get killed or crippled after a mission or two. The guy became a Knight pretty much on pluck alone, but let's face it, he's completely in over his head. Even if Michael, who is crippled, Sanya, who is constantly busy, or Murphy, who will need months of PT to return to form, manage to train him on a few sword techniques, there is no way at Butters' age (middle) and level of fitness (poor) he will acquire a reasonable level of skill needed to go up against the beasties Knights face off against. And given how busy Knights are, I doubt he'd be able to sit out the multiple years he'd need to develop those skills from scratch. Butters' thing is almost certainly going to be the fact that he's really pretty loving smart about how he goes about things. He's got Bob as an advisor and a sidekick, and he's turned into a pretty capable magical artificer. When Dresden saw Butters' skateboard for the first time his reaction was something like "goddamnit, why didn't I think of that?" and then like 30 seconds later he's like "Oh, huh. Butters figured out how to make that memory gas poo poo, too." His biggest weakness is going to be Bob's inability to go out during the daylight, but I wouldn't be surprised if he comes up with a way around that, too. As far as sword techniques, dude's got a lightsaber and I expect him to be pretty clever about how he exploits that kind of thing. He's also got all kinds of possible trainers. Charity was Michael's sparring partner, so she's got to be pretty loving good. The Brighter Future Society has a gym full of Vikings with centuries of experience. Mostly, though, I just don't expect him to be primarily a physical asskicker. He's got a Batman vest for a reason. ImpAtom posted:That doesn't make sense though. The Winter Knight is big mojo. That's the entire point of the Winter Knight. To go from that to "oh, well, it isn't really THAT important" doesn't make sense with the fact that the Winter Knight is a tremendously big deal. If that is what we're supposed to take away from it then it's pretty dumb. It being a retcon is a lot more likely. The Knights are big mojo, yes... but so is Harry. He was a big deal even before he was the Winter Knight. He raised a zombie dinosaur, rode it through a storm of dark magic, and defeated two necromancers. He mastered Demonreach and became the Warden. He took on a naagloshii and came fairly close to soloing something that Morgan had to use a nuclear weapon to get rid of. He bested Nicodemus and the Denarians twice. He stormed Arctis Tor and took down Eldest Fetch. We're seeing the world through Harry's eyes, and Harry is on a level of power where the Knights just aren't as impressive as they used to be because Dresden's personal power has increased.
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May 28, 2014 04:13
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Khizan posted:As far as sword techniques, dude's got a lightsaber and I expect him to be pretty clever about how he exploits that kind of thing. He's also got all kinds of possible trainers. Charity was Michael's sparring partner, so she's got to be pretty loving good. The Brighter Future Society has a gym full of Vikings with centuries of experience. Mostly, though, I just don't expect him to be primarily a physical asskicker. He's got a Batman vest for a reason. You just reminded me of a quote from Ghost Story. Spoilers for the current book I guess: "Butters," rumbled Skaldi Hair Ball. If he really had broken fingers, it didn't look like they were bothering him much. "When are you going to get in this ring and train like a man?" "About five minutes after I get a functional lightsaber," Butters replied easily, much to Hair Ball's amusement.
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May 28, 2014 05:34
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Regarding Murphy, what was up with Michael pointing out that Harry wasn't more upset about Murphy being hurt than he would be about any of his friends being hurt? I can't tell if it was supposed to point out that Harry has stopped being stupidly sexist about Murphy in terms of combat or if it was supposed to be a hint that he isn't in love with her.
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May 28, 2014 05:42
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Wow, I predicted virtually none of the things that happened, but they all made sense when they happened. Nice caper story as well as a Dresden story.Khizan posted:The Knights are big mojo, yes... but so is Harry. He was a big deal even before he was the Winter Knight. He raised a zombie dinosaur, rode it through a storm of dark magic, and defeated two necromancers. He mastered Demonreach and became the Warden. He took on a naagloshii and came fairly close to soloing something that Morgan had to use a nuclear weapon to get rid of. He bested Nicodemus and the Denarians twice. He stormed Arctis Tor and took down Eldest Fetch. Let's face it, almost nobody in the series is as impressive really as they were earlier from Harry's perspective; compare Nicky in his first appearance to how Harry deals with him in this book. Hell, Dresden outright challenges Nicodemus on his strongest suit, cleverness, and beats the crap out of him at it. With a lot of help admittedly wow Mab just utterly hosed Nicky up with a VERY long con game, don't break the Accords indeed, but that's pretty much how Dresden works period, and his own part took more than a little cunning of its own. Stupid_Sexy_Flander posted:Another thing to think about... regarding Ascher anyway. Regarding the backstory bit - one thing about the rape that makes me a little more tolerant of it is that it does fit the whole "Ascher is Harry's dark mirror" thing better. Justin wasn't trying to kill Harry (at least originally) after all, but use him for his own purposes. The plan even included "mind rape" after all, and we can't be sure how far Justin got into that before Harry fought him off. So it's fair to say Harry didn't just kill out of fear of his life but of fear of being violated. Barring some sort of similar mentor betrayal in Ascher's past (which would be a little TOO convenient really), fighting off a rape with fatal results fits the mirror theme reasonably well. So it's not quite just pulling a dubiously sexist cliché out of the bag if it is true (and if it was Lasciel lying, that also fits her characterization). quote:Regarding the Mantle, I think Harry just isn't accessing it as much. The previous Knights kinda went into it full blast. used the power as much as possible, and were complete monsters and assholes. Harry is only using the power when he absolutely needs to. That might be why he's not exactly coming across as the superman that a lot of people thought he would be. I rather like that thought on it. Harry really doesn't rely on it as much as his magic anyway, whereas somebody like Slate pretty much had the Mantle and nothing else. Might also be a factor of the Knight's personality shaping things as well; Harry has pretty much run on the "take the hit and keep fighting on through the pain" thing the whole series, that might explain why the Winter Knight's power works the way it does. Korgan posted:You just reminded me of a quote from Ghost Story. Bwahahahaha, nice foreshadowing.
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May 28, 2014 05:43
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Nicodemus was certainly after that knife, and that knife is almost certainly the spear of destiny. Amongst other things, lore says that the Spear grants immortality. That's something Nicky is desperate to have again, after having his illusions of invincibility shattered by Harry in Small Favor. In the end, Nick has a plan, and he cannot accomplish it if he's dead. His noose used to be good enough, but a few years ago Harry drat near strangled him with it. There's even a brief exchange early in the book where Harry and Nick have a bit of banter about his so-called invincibility. Murphy , or rather Karrin, is probably at the beginning of her exit from active duty. She's getting older, and it'll be quite some time before she's physically capable again. Even when she's capable, she won't be at 100%. She's been outclassed for a while, and this is a good way to handle that exit. Let her go from comrade-in-arms to something more intimate. She'll get to stick around without the necessity of having to come up with excuses why she can (or cannot) join in the action. You'll also notice that Harry spent the entire book calling her Karrin, not Murphy, and that's yet another sign of change in the character. She's come a long, long way. I actually like Karrin where I really did not like Murphy Butters has been one of my favorite tertiary characters for a while, and I love where he went in thise book. I hope we get to see him be Sir BatJedi, but hopefully not for a book or two. Let him fade a bit and become more powerful than we can possibly imagine. Did anyone notice that this book broke the Vampire pattern? It's the first to break any of the patterns, really. But as the first multiple-of-three book since Harry killed the Red Court, it makes sense. I really expected Mavra or the Whites to show up, at least in passing, but I'm glad they didn't.
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May 28, 2014 05:54
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ConfusedUs posted:Did anyone notice that this book broke the Vampire pattern? It's the first to break any of the patterns, really. But as the first multiple-of-three book since Harry killed the Red Court, it makes sense. I really expected Mavra or the Whites to show up, at least in passing, but I'm glad they didn't. Haha yeah. I wonder if there's any extra pattern to which Court shows up in what book? Because if this book was supposed to be Red, welp. If it was I guess we technically got it since Ascher was pals with the Fellowship of St. Giles.
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May 28, 2014 06:04
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Khizan posted:The Knights are big mojo, yes... but so is Harry. He was a big deal even before he was the Winter Knight. He raised a zombie dinosaur, rode it through a storm of dark magic, and defeated two necromancers. He mastered Demonreach and became the Warden. He took on a naagloshii and came fairly close to soloing something that Morgan had to use a nuclear weapon to get rid of. He bested Nicodemus and the Denarians twice. He stormed Arctis Tor and took down Eldest Fetch. Harry was big mojo but was very specifically not that big a mojo. He was 'that crazy guy with a lot of power and very little self restrain' as opposed to being the personal hitman of one of the nastiest and most primal beings in the books. He's certainly a grade-A asskicker but he isn't that much of a grade-A asskicker and the Winter Knight mantel was pretty clearly described as a significant power boost for him that put him onto a different level. (And in turn, everyone around him started to get brought to higher levels to compensate.) ConfusedUs posted:
If Murphy goes from being a cool and self-assured asskicker to being the girlfriend character who is effectively worthless in any of the big meaningful events to come, that'd basically be the end of the series of me. No amount of 'well, it makes sense' would justify that in a series where goddamn Waldo Butters gets to step up to be a serious physical threat. And yes, being able to participate in the action scenes is a requirement. They make up huge chunks of the book and are were characters define themselves and get to do cool things. Murphy getting 'girlfriended' so that she, and she alone of the major adult characters (except arguably Michael, who was back in action this book anyway), is taken out of action would be awful writing. Wittgen posted:Regarding Murphy, what was up with Michael pointing out that Harry wasn't more upset about Murphy being hurt than he would be about any of his friends being hurt? I can't tell if it was supposed to point out that Harry has stopped being stupidly sexist about Murphy in terms of combat or if it was supposed to be a hint that he isn't in love with her. It's the former. Harry was upset she got hurt but not MORE upset that she got hurt. He's getting over his weird poo poo about women, or at least about Murphy. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 06:21 on May 28, 2014 |
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May 28, 2014 06:12
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Because Polka will never die.
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May 28, 2014 06:20
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Skippy McPants posted:Stuff about Hannah Ascher I think the problem is, the First Law is mostly bullshit.
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May 28, 2014 06:24
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Betting Karrin becomes Charity, basically. Takes over liaison duties to Chicago Alliance. If Marcone or anyone needed to get a hold of Dresden, they know who to talk to. Support from afar but not in the thick of things. De-emphasizing the Winter Mantle is going to help slow down the power creep when it moves on/gets ditched in the future. You gotta be careful when you're continually escalating things up over the course of the series. We really haven't seen the potential of what would happen with Demonreach, the full winter mantle with mab's juice behind it, and now the four other artifacts from the vault. Dresden doesn't tap these because they can be really dark poo poo and basically last resort sort of things. We're going to see a lot of this come to bear when Butcher pulls all the stops out for the last three books. I really want to see the white council's perspective of all this since the Red Court went down to now. Ebeneezer gotta have some interesting things to say.
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May 28, 2014 06:43
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ImpAtom posted:If Murphy goes from being a cool and self-assured asskicker to being the girlfriend character who is effectively worthless in any of the big meaningful events to come, that'd basically be the end of the series of me. No amount of 'well, it makes sense' would justify that in a series where goddamn Waldo Butters gets to step up to be a serious physical threat. When freaking Waldo Butters gets to become a Jedi, there's no reason in the world that Murphy should be forced to sit the good fight out. Why should Murphy be forced to become another Charity? Murphy would never be one who would be willing to stay at home, if not barefoot then frequently pregnant, to tend the hearth fires while the man of the house is off to war. That's just one step away from being an actual damsel in distress (fitting, because Charity WAS an actual Damsel in Distress. Ok, so Charity isn't actually that retrograde of a character, but still, optics! The woman has been fighting on the front lines since day one, trained with nigh immortal Einherjar, and fielded a job offer to become a capital V Valkyrie. Given that, to reduce her to support staff would be moronic. VanSandman posted:I think the problem is, the First Law is mostly bullshit. Mars4523 fucked around with this message at 06:55 on May 28, 2014 |
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May 28, 2014 06:46
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Mars4523 posted:Seriously, there is no limit to the amount of what the gently caress I would have for this series. Karrin Murphy, who from day one has been a capable mortal ally to Harry Dresden and who when facing any number of supernatural beasties has always been able to look after herself and kick tons of rear end (including icing two Council level warlocks on her lonesome), getting reduced to the handwringing girlfriend will basically cause me to immediately go "gently caress this" and throw all my Dresden books out. I'm guessing that won't happen. What she'll do is play Oracle for a bit - watch Paranet, keep up with Marcone, Vadderung, and the rest, while being Harry's girlfriend and likely becoming something of a mother figure for his kids. That will eventually build up to her picking up Amoracchius in time for the next nickleheads book or the finale or whatever. However, if he goes that route, Butcher needs to introduce another kickass female supporting character that's strong enough to stand on her own and call Harry out on his bullshit. I don't think Molly would really fit too well without a huge character change and somehow slipping out of the Winter Queen role, but I'm not sure who else he could pull out. Edit: Regarding Butters being a serious physical threat, wasn't it stated that Shiro basically had no right to be a serious threat at his age? That doesn't seem to really matter to the swords, beyond a basic level of training. And hey: Characters change. I'd rather see changes that seem kind of silly on the face of it than characters that stay exactly the same forever. Arcsech fucked around with this message at 07:14 on May 28, 2014 |
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May 28, 2014 07:00
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Korgan posted:You just reminded me of a quote from Ghost Story. Also in Dead Beat when Harry prayed for help, hoping a Knight would show up, as he has said at least once since, Mouse and Butters showed up and did save his rear end. 
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May 28, 2014 07:07
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Mars4523 posted:Seriously, there is no limit to the amount of what the gently caress I would have for this series. Karrin Murphy, who from day one has been a capable mortal ally to Harry Dresden and who when facing any number of supernatural beasties has always been able to look after herself and kick tons of rear end (including icing two Council level warlocks on her lonesome), getting reduced to the handwringing girlfriend will basically cause me to immediately go "gently caress this" and throw all my Dresden books out. You know, except for the parts where she has repeatedly turned down the swords? Or the fact that she is--by at least a decade--the oldest remaining "active" fighter? Or that she took a debilitating injury? I'm not saying she can't find a more active role, but narratively this is the perfect time to transition her into a different role. I like Murphy as the spunky Action Chick but, frankly, that's just about all she is. I'd love to get a chance for her to get away from that role and grow as a character.
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May 28, 2014 07:11
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ConfusedUs posted:You know, except for the parts where she has repeatedly turned down the swords? Or the fact that she is--by at least a decade--the oldest remaining "active" fighter? Or that she took a debilitating injury? She turned down the swords because she didn't emotionally believe she was ready for them and Skin Game proved that she was correct in that assumption. It would be kind of the polar opposite of good development for multiple books of buildup to end with "yep, Murphy's super lovely, sucks for her." Beyond that, yes, Murphy is the Action Girl because that is the kind of character she is. She is forward, aggressive, and actively enjoys fighting. Even if she develops it shouldn't be away from that and into a passive role, especially because she isn't a good fit for passive or secondary roles. Not only because it doesn't fit her personality but because most of those roles already have a well-defined character being part of them. However Murphy isn't 'just' the Spunky Action Chick. She's important because she is one of the characters most willing to call out bullshit, regardless of who she is talking to, and important because she's the closest the series has to a solid human face at this point. Everyone else is knee-deep in magical mumbo-jumbo or deeply held religious beliefs aside from maybe Butters who (bless his heart) can't fill the same role Murphy can, especially now that he's a Knight. Edit: And in terms of age... c'mon, Shiro. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 07:30 on May 28, 2014 |
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May 28, 2014 07:22
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I just caught that Butcher has Harry say "TV rarely does the original stories justice." 
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May 28, 2014 07:24
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Waldo Butters is actually a few years older than Murphy is. Plus he's not particularly fit, and he's completely untrained in any sword styles. Shiro remained a threat to Denarians even in his old age due to his utterly ridiculous fitness and his even more ridiculous mastery of his blade. Butters has none of that. Here's the thing: the only thing that the Swords do are even the playing field. At which point you're not fighting a terrifyingly freakish demon spawn from hell, but only an exceptionally skilled warrior with millennia of experience. The Sword doesn't teach you to fight well, you need to know how to fight already. MOD EDIT: gaaah people please use the @%%@#%@#$ tags so I don't have to do this Somebody fucked around with this message at 22:00 on May 28, 2014 |
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May 28, 2014 07:29
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| # ? May 4, 2024 21:32 |
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I just finished Skin Game and really enjoyed it. Butters taking up a sword was something I did not see coming. It was awesome though, and I hope we get some details/updates in a few books' time, like what happened with Fix.
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May 28, 2014 07:34
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