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The C16 Group Hug deck has had more success than Atraxa in our play group, but not as much as Breya. It's a legitimately good deck. I like Atraxa herself and some parts of her deck, but we've found the deck in general to be too sluggish. Everyone who's used it in our group usually has trouble getting things rolling with the amount of board wipes in this precon set. The Yidris deck suuuuucks, but Yidris might be cool in another deck. Vial Smasher is fun as hell, to boot. I just started playing Magic again a few months ago when some buddies introduced me to Commander. They play casually, with a few unspoken rules to keep things from getting too grognardy: not too many board wipes, low to mid $ stuff, don't be a dick, etc. It keeps things fun, competitive, and keeps any of us from ending up in the poor house. I played Magic 15 years ago and sold all my poo poo to pay for college when the tournament scene made me hate the game. I really like Commander because it does a few things to fix the issues I had with Magic back in the day. About six months ago, a friend of mine gave me about 1,200 "garbage cards" that he was going to throw away. I took them in lieu of payment for helping him move because those other friends had been trying to get me back into Magic via Commander and Cubes. I took the cards, and about 80% turned out to be crap. But 10% of it was good for Commander, and 10% of it was good, but not for Commander so I shipped it off via Puca Trade for fun poo poo. I've spend a total of about $150 bucks on cards in the last six months to add to the collection, and now I have seven Commander decks and I'm looking to make a pauper cube. I unwittingly made a broken deck, basically working on my own and using the same instincts I had from old tourney Magic. I found a potential commander on Puca Trade, got a copy, and went from there. I didn't mention my deck construction to my group until I fielded it. I made a Narset deck.  She stepped all over everyone in her first game, and won her next two games too. She's 3-0. As one of my buddies but it, "everyone in this group needs to have one deck that is for when the gloves come off. Otherwise, keep that poo poo off the table unless you want to kill a man." I think Narset is mine. I honestly wasn't trying to break the game, but she seemed like a fun, chaotic way to cast a ton of random poo poo every turn. Welp. My other decks aren't quite as dumb but have dumb names: Uril's Enchanted Evening (note: does not actually run Enchanted Evening because it sadly can't; the name is meant to be ironic) Zadruu's lovely Christmas Horde of Dead, Angry Nature Jarad's Liches Get Stitches The Basket of Deplorables (a Shattergang Brothers goblin tribal) Breya's Flight to Nowhere (brand new, haven't tested it yet) Zadruu is my new favorite deck because the multiplayer social part of Commander is one of my favorite things about the format. Lemme Stasis Snare some dope and then hand the snare to a mutual opponent for safe keeping. 
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Dec 6, 2016 19:15
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OgreNoah posted:Love Mirrorweave. I once had a completely empty board, and Reins of Powered my friend for his 5 varying creatures (including a Silent-Blade Oni), Mirrorweaved them all into Silent-Blade Onis, and then cast his whole hand for me.  Reins of Power, for that matter, isn't half bad. My group has been playing the C16 precons for a couple of weeks, and the first time I used the group hug deck I won with a timely Reins of Power and a little bit of bluffing. I had four bird tokens in play from an early Migratory Route, and they had been deterring people from attacking me in the air when they could go after other players without 1/1 flying chumps to get in the way. But when it got down to two of us, my opponent had one overpowered flier (it was Atraxa with a bazillion tokens on her, I think) and just needed to kill all of my birds. We both had huge armies on the ground. I taunted him to "get it over with" and kill the birds right then, so he did with some kind of spell. It was premature on his part, because doing so that turn mean he didn't have the mana to pay for Propaganda and Ghostly Prison to attack. He could have killed me if he did. That gave me one turn to use the Reins of Power I had been holding for literally the entire game, take his flier, and kill him with it in one stroke. If even a single one of my birds had still been alive, it wouldn't have worked. 
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Dec 7, 2016 15:41
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The Shortest Path posted:No, that's not what Voltron means at all. It's assembling a giant robot dude out of a bunch of pieces, usually equipment, and punching your foes in the dick repeatedly with it. Uril and Rafiq are popular voltron commanders. I kind of accidentally made a Voltron deck with Uril. It's an enchantment synergy deck, but it so often comes down to him being 20/20 with trample that it doesn't matter how many angels I have floating around from Sigil of the Empty Throne or how many constellation triggers I have going off or whatever other bullshit is going on. Uril just rolls up and punches people until they die.
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Dec 7, 2016 19:47
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Toshimo posted:I don't think Ydris, dude who has to live long enough to connect with a player in combat, is relevant enough to correct that. This is my biggest problem with him. Abilities that trigger when they connect with an opponent are really risky to me for a commander. Triggers like Narset's are different (i.e. just attacking, regardless of how that turns out) because they're always going to go off unless you choose to take a turn off. If you can safely and consistently get Yidris through, then why not just make a Voltron deck with any ol' high-power commander? Yidris is fun, but not great. Good at best, but not great.
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Dec 7, 2016 21:18
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I just got a Sphinx-Bone Wand for my Narset deck. It was one of my solutions to "I put a bunch of fun, dumb poo poo in here, but I should probably kill opponents at some point." That sure did work. I am loving finding cards like that, because everything from the last 15 years is new to me. I laughed my rear end off when I found the SBW.Smashing Link posted:Not trolling. It's a 7 mana artifact that does nothing when you cast it. It's inherently fair. Our commander group has a similar philosophy about most big, crazy creatures. Lord of Extinction? Sure, it's probably going to hit the table as a 40/40 or better, but it still dies just the same to pretty much any removal spell. Artifacts are a bit less fragile than creatures, but basically the same thing is true about most of them. It's the opponent's fault for letting things like the SBW sit around for a turn or more. There are some things that are "unfair" if they are too fast or too unkillable. But the SBW is neither.
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Dec 8, 2016 19:26
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En Fuego posted:Magical Christmas Land fell upon me last night on MTGO playing Zedruu. Kept a 1 lander with Mana Crypt and a signet. From there kept topdecking lands and popped a turn 2 Zedruu, turn 3 Illusions of Grandeur, into turn 4 Chaos Warp on the Illusions (and nailing another land off of that). That guy instantly conceded (which is silly, he only lost 20 life), so I consider that my best Zedruu first turns ever. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbMq4NCHuhU&t=15s I still have 'Nam flashbacks of how Illusions of Grandeur ruined the tournament scene for a good six months, when everyone was playing Trix with Donate/Illusions. I played in two tournaments in as many months where 6 of the top 8 were the same loving deck. This was over 15 years ago, but it still makes me hesitant to put illusions of Grandeur in my Zadruu deck, even though it's an obvious addition (that, and I don't have a copy at the moment).
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Dec 9, 2016 15:51
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I haven't built a mono-color commander deck yet, but it seems like it would be harder to make it good than a 2+ color deck. That said, I had an idea for a mono white deck yesterday while I was finishing up a cube. I might try to throw that together, but I don't have a commander for it yet. I'm just short on mono white legendary creatures.
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Dec 11, 2016 12:17
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Archenteron posted:When in doubt, Isamaru, Good Dog of Konda Hahaha. I had to look it up because everything between 2001 and 2015 is fuzzy to me. I will totally do this, if only to troll my play group.
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Dec 11, 2016 14:04
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Coucho Marx posted:I go a little in the other direction and prefer two-colour decks. You're restricted enough by colours that you have to really focus your deck around a specific strategy, but you've got enough flexibility to respond to most threats. Your manabase isn't too hard to work with, a handful of non-CIPT duals and you're golden. And the commanders can be really interesting, or powerful, or both! I think that's what happened to my Narset deck. Just threw in every good, high-cost (mana not $) non-creature rare I had in R/W/U and just... let things happen. The only challenge was keeping her and myself safe without other creatures, which is surprisingly easy when you cast 2-4 spells per turn for free. It's somehow fun to play, but in the most uninteresting way possible. That's why I like tribal decks. I have a goblin tribal and an elemental tribal. Those are 3 and 5 colors, respectively, but I don't get lost just throwing any broken poo poo in. I stick to the theme and work with that that gives me. It's not the colors that are limiters, but the theme. As long as there's something to get in the way of throwing in All the Good Stuff, then it works and is fun to play.
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Dec 12, 2016 14:56
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I've been finding all sorts of hosed up, color archetype-breaking cards that were printed after I stopped playing. Things like Geosurge: a red Dark Ritual that costs more but nets the ame, and can only be used on creatures or artifacts. But still, it's a red Dark Ritual! 
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Dec 12, 2016 20:52
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Voyager I posted:
!!!! Welp, there's a good option to ramp in my Shatter Gang Bros deck. Holy poo poo. Played a few games last night with two buddies. Got wrecked playing virtually untested works-in-progress. Played Zedruu for the second time opposite two decks with too many sac outlets to get anything going. Played Horde of Notions for the second time and got land-hosed against a fast Breya deck. We wanted a quick game for our third, so I went with Narset. I got land hosed in that game too, but managed to hang in there against a Karametra deck that was running roughshod against me and a Nekusar deck. I got stuck at 5 mana for a million turns, and just barely managed to get Narset into play just as Nekusar went down. I got one attack out of her and it just about stole the game for me, but it wasn't quite enough and I went down swinging.
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Dec 13, 2016 16:38
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Toshimo posted:Post Can do. I don't have my decks in digitized lists at the moment, but I can type up the mana base and ramp if that helps. Off the top of my head, most of my decks run about 35-40 land and 5-10 ramp cards, so I end up with 40-45 mana-producing cards (or ways to get to them). It usually works pretty well, but I think I just got unlucky with my draws in those games, or else my shuffles weren't great.
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Dec 16, 2016 16:11
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Agreed that the Saskia deck is too slow and too narrow on board presence. Our group has had little success using it unaltered, although Saskia's ability has blown up a few people, but it just hasn't won any games. It's a goofy ability in a format that's designed around 3+ player tables. It might not be a bad idea to throw in a couple things to flicker Saskia, just so you can reset her ability if need be. You have access to white, so that shouldn't bee too hard. I say that because we had a couple games where the Saskia player had to deliberately get Saskia killed because he had no sac outlets and her target had died, or the game's priorities had changed. But by the end of those games, the player was paying out the nose to get her into play. Some other thoughts: -The irony is that there are some commanders in some of the other C16 decks that would go really well with Saskia. Vial Smasher, for example. -Definitely more ramp, and faster mana. You have a ton of low cost stuff that can drop on turn 2 or 3 if there weren't so many CIPT lands. You could try taking out all of the CIPT 3-color lands too and add more burn lands if you have them, or basics. Most commander decks I play or have played against can get away with slow lands, but aggro really can't. -The deck pulls itself in two directions, but doesn't commit enough to either one: big fat bruisers, and a horde of 2 power dudes. Things like Alesha and Mentor of the Meek are good, but don't sync up well with a lot of the stuff in the deck. The Mentor is almost necessary for the card draw, though, so maybe less big fat guys and more creatures that dole out token creatures or +1/+1 counters? I dunno. I know that's how aggro might go in a more normal format, but you want to make sure it doesn't run out of gas in commander. I don't have much else to offer here, partly because I'm new to the format, and partly because aggro sucks hard in our play group so I'm not used to building for it in commander.
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Dec 19, 2016 12:16
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OgreNoah posted:I really dislike color-hosing. Iona's obviously the worst example of this, but things like Acidand Choke just aren't fun. Donating Celestial Offering used to be such a dick move, but now that you can generate colors outside your general it doesn't work. I've got a Beta Gloom that I haven't had the heart to put into a deck. Our playgroup has an unspoken rule against color hosing. Literally. I've never heard anyone say it out loud, but no one uses color hosing. I've sold/traded off a lot of my color hose cards and pro-whatever cards because I think they're kind of a lame way to play in a format that doesn't use sideboards. I suspect no one wants to be the one to start, because once one person does it, then everyone is in on it. "I am become death, destroyer of worlds," and all that. Non-basic hosing, on the other hand, is totally rad and I wish I had the cards and decks to do it properly. I have a mono-white Odric deck in the works, so maybe soon. I just built a R/U deck using Niv-Mizzet the Firemind as its commander. The commander actually came last, and I just ran a search for one that would work well with what I already built. I'm not sure if it's any good because I haven't tested it in a live game yet, but it sure can: Draw lots of cards, and deal damage to payers when I do. Make everyone draw lots of cards, and punish everyone else for doing so. Inadvertently mill the poo poo out of everyone else, while I run Feldon's Cane and Elixir of Immortality and Cranial Archive. I realied there was so much potential for this that I threw in a Keening Stone for good measure.  I had to cannibalize my Breya deck to build it, but this one is way more fun to play. There's a boatload of artifacts in the deck, and I needed things like the Trinket Mage for that sweet, sweet Trinket Mage -> Voltaic Key -> Basalt Monolith. I loved Voltaic Key back in the day, and I'm glad it's still good as hell.
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Dec 22, 2016 21:02
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I just put together a really premature mono white Odric deck, using what I had lying around. I tried to fuse a +1/+1 counter deck with Odric's ability overcharging, to do dumb things with flying, double strike, and lifelink on artificially jacked-up creatures. I have some gaps, like not enough access to good creatures with double strike and hexproof. Then I ran a search on Deckbox and found out that Aegis Angel and Angelic Overseer exist. 
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Dec 27, 2016 02:24
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Roland Jones posted:Thinking of getting back into Magic in the form of this, between online play with friends and FNM at the local game store doing Commander events as well; I always liked multiplayer MtG, the politicking and such was fun. Thinking of putting together a Zedruu deck by buying Stalwart Unity and some of the cheaper cards she likes (I'm not dropping $10-$20 on things like Venser or Gilded Drake, as great as they are for her, but Steel Golem and Niv-Mizzet are both cheap, for example) and throwing in some of the cards I already have as well (I used to play Alara when I started MtG so I have some nice things, including Glacial Fortress and Sensei's Divining Top, and given her ability to give away land an Inkwell Leviathan seems like it'd fit in well too). WUR is my favorite color combination and Zedruu seems hilarious, so I'm thinking I just did what you described, just a couple months ahead of you. Stalwart Unity is good, and is great for Zedruu. I have a weak, early form of it that I'll jot down and post later when I have more than a few minutes to post. But having tested this sort of alpha version, here's a few notes:  Be sure to pack white removal spells or some other way to consistently to get rid of opponents' sac outlets. Anything like Ashnod's Altar can seriously gently caress with your ability to make sure everyone has a merry Christmas. I originally used creatures that had good "when enters the battlefield" effects, and then "regifted" them. I got the good effect, and the opponent gets a lame creature. This doen't work as well as other things, but it does give you fun options if you have flicker effects through white. Creature enchantments (auras) are funny as hell with Zedruu. They get a target when they enter play, but they don't get a new target when they change controllers. You can jack up your dudes and then hand off the auras, so you get the aura, card draw, and life gain for it. Your opponent gets an empty box. Speaking of which, White has tons of auras that exile opponents' creatures. Oblivion Ring, Stasis Snare, etc. Those work the same way, but have the added goofiness of exiling one opponent's dude, and then handing the responsibility of imprisonment to a second opponent. In a multi-player game, it's a really fun way to work with table politics. Zedruu is costly. Her ability is rough on mana, so have some things that can donate themselves. Assault Suit and Akroan Horse are both good examples. If things get going even a little bit, you're going to gain a ton of life. It's not a bad idea to have powerful stuff that get powerful by costing you life. If you have it to spend, why not? Use Brand and Homeward Path. There's a Homeward Path in Stalwart Unity, so you'll at last have that. Both get all of your donated poo poo back, which may be necessary in some circumstances.I'll post my list later. I should emphasize again how it isn't great, but it's a work in progress that I'm already having fun with.
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Dec 29, 2016 18:30
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Tim Raines IRL posted:perhaps your entire meta is what I'm deeming "highly competitive", then? I agree it's bad anywhere that people are trying to goldfish before turn 6-7. That's what it sounds like to me. Literally all of the decks in my play group don't go off anywhere close to turn 6. If I wanted a super fast game of Magic that was more like a sprint than a marathon, I'd still be playing Standard. Also: why would you not use Homeward Path in a Zedruu deck? It's a non-basic land that gives you 1 colorless mana, so it's not like it's taking up room for much else in the mana base. I'm not being snarky; I genuinely want to know why it was on the poo poo list.
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Dec 29, 2016 19:51
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hoobajoo posted:The whole point of Zedruu to do the opposite of homeward path, and a colorless land is a real cost in most decks, but especially in 3 color. It seems like good insurance, in case things go wrong. My deck also has only one other land that produces colorless mana (Reliquary Tower), and I haven't had problems with mana so far. But my deck is still pretty awful, since I don't have a lot of the good cards for "re-gifting," like Illusions of Grandeur. If I did, maybe I'd have more confidence about it and nix the Homeward Path. Here's my list: https://deckbox.org/sets/1586945?s=c&o=a 1 Azorius Chancery 1 Boros Garrison 1 Boros Guildgate 1 Command Tower 1 Evolving Wilds 1 Exotic Orchard 1 Highland Lake 1 Homeward Path 4 Island 1 Izzet Boilerworks 1 Izzet Guildgate 1 Meandering River 4 Mountain 1 Myriad Landscape 1 Mystic Monastery 4 Plains 1 Reliquary Tower 1 Rupture Spire 1 Sejiri Refuge 1 Stone Quarry 1 Swiftwater Cliffs 1 Terramorphic Expanse 1 Tranquil Cove 1 Transguild Promenade 1 Wind-Scarred Crag 1 Aeon Chronicler 1 Ajani's Pridemate 1 Akroan Horse 1 Angel of Serenity 1 Assault Suit 1 Azorius Cluestone 1 Banisher Priest 1 Batterhorn 1 Brand 1 Chasm Skulker 1 Cloudform 1 Commander's Sphere 1 Cranial Archive 1 Efreet Weaponmaster 1 Empyrial Plate 1 Entrapment Maneuver 1 Fairgrounds Warden 1 Feldon's Cane 1 Fellwar Stone 1 Firemantle Mage 1 Flicker 1 Flickerwisp 1 Flying Crane Technique 1 Glimmerpoint Stag 1 Glint-Nest Crane 1 Harmless Offering 1 Hoofprints of the Stag 1 Humble Defector 1 Ixidron 1 Jeskai Banner 1 Jinxed Idol 1 Library of Leng 1 Lightform 1 Luminate Primordial 1 Mizzium Mortars 1 Monk Idealist 1 Nevinyrral's Disk 1 Oblivion Ring 1 Ojutai Monument 1 Oreskos Explorer 1 Oxidda Scrapmelter 1 Panharmonicon 1 Phyrexian Rebirth 1 Psychosis Crawler 1 Quarantine Field 1 Reclusive Artificer 1 Reins of Power 1 Relief Captain 1 Sandstone Oracle 1 Serene Steward 1 Shrewd Negotiation 1 Silkwrap 1 Sol Ring 1 Solemn Simulacrum 1 Stasis Snare 1 Sturmgeist 1 Supplant Form 1 Swiftfoot Boots 1 Thought Vessel 1 Venser's Journal 1 Wall of Junk 1 Warden of the Eye 1 Warstorm Surge 1 Wispweaver Angel 1 Zada, Hedron Grinder (He was in here when the deck had a lot more instants and sorceries, and I haven't bothered taking him out yet) 1 Zedruu the Greathearted The bolded ones are coming out ASAP, but there are others that will likely come out too. I had to play it once or twice for a proof of concept on Zedruu, but now that I've done that, I can cut out a lot of the crap that doesn't do a whole lot for me. My problem now is that I don't have much to replace them with. It's far and away my weakest deck at the moment, but I love the Zedruu mechanic so much that I'm willing to go looking for the cards that the deck needs. I just don't have them right now.
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Dec 29, 2016 20:30
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hoobajoo posted:Reliquary Tower is also bad and should come out. If your 7 best cards don't win the game, what was the 8th going to do? Because Zedruu can draw 4+ cards per turn without spending mana once she gets going? Is this a trick question? I mean, I get your point, but if I take your point too strictly, then I'd just throw my hands up and scrap any Zedruu deck altogether. "What's the point in drawing 4 cards a turn? You should be able to win with whatever seven cards are in your hand." I get the point: seven cards should be enough to do whatever I need to do at any given time. But it seems pointlessly wasteful to have to discard down to seven at the end of every turn when all I need to do to avoid that is have one card of my mana base give me colorless mana instead of R or U. The cost to the deck's construction just seems so negligible that it costs more to not put it in the deck. What's the point of running Zedruu if I'm discarding 2-3 cards per turn anyway? But I like the idea about more counterspells. I left them out of this lovely version in order to test some of these dumb ideas, so now that I know what works (some of it) and what doesn't (most of it), I can replace a lot of the bad stuff with good counterspelling options (which is a thing that I have). Roland Jones posted:Well, okay, after reading Toshimo's posts I am now more confused about all this. Unless it was meant to be sarcastic, I have no idea how most of the "don't play this" cards are bad but Embargo is not, for example; I don't see how trading lands is unacceptable, but making it so nothing that isn't land untaps and giving someone a health drain (since obviously you're going to Zedruu the card away after playing it) is fine. That seems like the kind of thing that gets you dogpiled in an MP game. I think it's a case of different meta in different groups. For example, my group uses a lot less in the way of tutors because most of them are pricey. My group also uses less in the way of board wipes because we've found that a four player game where every deck has 4-6 wipes is frustrating and boring. Our games tend to be more like arms races that play out in longer spans than a typical game. The decks all build up, things reach a crisis point, and we see who's still standing when the bombs stop falling. Toshimo seems to play in a faster, more cutthroat meta than I'm used to for commander, but I may be wrong. Cost can also affect things. There's a lot that folks can take for granted that I don't have access to yet. Personally, I just got started collecting again three months ago, so all of my commander decks cost $100 or less and use a lot of bullshit CIPT lands. I have a Jarad deck that's worth about $40: https://deckbox.org/sets/1587029 So expectations may differ by group meta, or by budget.
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Dec 29, 2016 22:37
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Babylon Astronaut posted:This is bullshit because even if you are discarding 2-3 cards a turn, the intial draw 4 is giving you the card selection to craft a better, winning hand. It's still the next 4 cards of the deck. So if 7 cards, plus the next 4 turns of cards from the top of the deck doesn't win, what's the plan? All 7 cards are good cards, and you can't afford to discard any? It is much more likely that you can't cast these 11 cards because the deck has strict color requirements. I didn't say I couldn't afford to discard any. I was trying to say that if there's one card I can throw in that negligibly slows the deck down that might mean I don't have to discard any if it comes up, then I'll throw it in. I honestly don't understand the violent hatred toward Reliquary Tower. It's not great, but it's not hurting anything in a deck like Zedruu. Ask Me For Warez posted:Homeward Path only gets back creatures, you probably aren't giving away a whole lot of creatures in Zedruu. That is a good point and I totally missed that. Yeah, gently caress that land. Toshimo posted:Oi! There seems to be some confusion as to why I make the recommendations I do, and what I expect from the format. It sounds like you want to play Vintage. If you aren't interested in longer games (not necessarily 3+ hour games, but over an hour), then a four player game of magic is probably not ideal. It's also not as conducive to decks that go off early and do one thing. You have three opponents to deal with, so decks often need more long game. You also seem to lose the center between Standard deck construction and ~woo goofy *slidewhistle*~ decks. With Commander decks being 100 cards and singleton, there's more flexibility involved in deck construction and play than in Standard. It can and should be built to win, but that doesn't mean it has to be built to do one thing, every time. That's loving boring, and one of the many reasons I stopped playing Standard back when it was called Type II. I agree that chaos or group hug for its own sake is loving stupid and a waste of everyone's time, but that doesn't mean unusual strategies don't work to win if they're designed to win. Group hug, for example, works and wins games, even if you don't like it. On other words: Voyager I posted:Counterpoint: Commander's card pool is fundamentally degenerate and the format is poorly curated, so building decks with the objective of winning as efficiently as possible leads to bad gameplay in the objective sense, not in the "losing on turn four hurts my feelings" sense. Commander, as a format, doesn't stand up to a tournament mindset and if you want to play that kind of game there are much better outlets. This. And you're kidding yourself if you think your group doesn't also have unwritten rules. Yours are apparently, "play Commander with all the joylessness of Standard, and don't you loving dare laugh or smile." Your group's meta also mainlines a ton of tutors and board wipes, which is fine. Everything is fine because, as you said, it is a game between people. And people want to have fun. However you do it is what it is. I should post more lovely, broken decks because holy poo poo did that Zedruu deck put a bee in your bonnet. Instead, I'll post a real deck, one that better represents a deck that works (as opposed to a proof of concept test). Maybe that will mellow you out, although I would also appreciate feedback about the deck from anyone ITT. In particular, I'd be curious to hear how much mana base is enough. I generally run 38 lands, give or take a few, and that does not include mana rocks and the like. Including those, I usually end up with 40-48 cards that can generate mana. https://deckbox.org/sets/1587279
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Dec 30, 2016 05:15
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The Lord of Hats posted:The point he's making isn't that there's a certain timeframe games should be completed in, it's that you need to be actively working to some sort of winstate beyond just "hopefully draw more/bigger permanents than everyone else". I've played games against people who just durdle around casting spells and twiddling around synergies and then they never go and do anything with it, and you just want to yell at them to win already. It's not even necessarily that they're not trying to win in the sense that you find group hug or chaos decks that proudly have no win condition (gently caress these decks, incidentally), it's that people lose sight of the end goal of the game in favor of playing SimCity. A game that stands out in my memory was long and drawn out because an opponent kept looping lifegain and wraths, but I didn't mind because that's what he needed to do to stay in the game against people attacking him, and when he had opportunities to advance towards victory he took them. I guess I haven't played with people who fart around building sandcastles for no reason. The closest anyone in my group has come to that was with a Breya deck that got a ton of artifact creatures in play and....? It absolutely went off, but in doing so it just sat there and didn't have enough push to end the game. It slowly petered out, and lost shortly after the next board wipe. The player dismantled the deck, or at least retooled so much it was unrecognizable, immediately. So when I was talking about arms races as opposed to mainlining six board wipes, I meant that everyone was building up toward an endgame and not just building for the sake of building. That would be obnoxious as hell, so I totally agree with that. The Lord of Hats posted:I agree with you that my "maximum fun" power level for EDH isn't Toshimo-tier ABSOLUTE MAXIMUM, but what Toshimo's group does is definitely the least subjective way to play Commander. If someone's doing something strong, that's not an issue of the player reading the group wrong, or being unfun, it's that the Rules Committee has done a poor job of curating the format. It's not something I'd personally want to play, but it's going to minimize interpersonal arguments. I guess I hadn't thought of Toshimo's play style as having a function to minimize disputes before or during games. It definitely would, and I could see that being useful playing with random grognards at a game store who may or may not be wasting everyone's time. My group is about eight friends who all know each other pretty well, so we don't have to deal with that problem RPG groups have with inviting unknown players into the game. "Is the new guy playing a rogue to be a player-killing munchkin?" "Is the new guy going to play fuckin Unglued cards in Commander?" So having a... clear play style would minimize a lot of that. alansmithee posted:I think you're kinda missing his point there. Also, you can't just blanket say something's boring-my prossh deck is super-linear and wins with food chain combo about 95% of the time yet is one of my most fun decks to play. It's interesting trying to pilot a powerful linear deck against a wide field of different decks. And group hug almost by definition doesn't win-you may get wins with a deck like that incidentally but you'd be better off doing pretty much anything else. I guess my experience with linear decks is still mostly in Standard, and it was boring as hell there. It is literally the reason I stopped playing 15 years ago. (Well, that and the Type II meta was also boring as hell back then). I'll probably have a different, less harsh view of it once I see more linear Commander decks. I've seen some, and have some decks that primarily do one thing to win, but I just hate turning Magic into a race. Commander got me back into Magic because the deck construction and the multiplayer nature of it almost proofs it against being super linear. Like I said, that is not my experience with group hug decks. Maybe our definition is different. I mean it as, "decks that give everyone something, but me a lot more. Also, the stuff you get kills you." I have a R/U Firemind deck in the works that is a good example. Everyone gets to draw a ton of cards, but mine kill you. And yours kill you. And you'll get milled out to things like Psychic Spiral and Keening Stone. That, to me, is a group hug deck. It's not giving everyone stuff to make the game longer. It's giving everyone stuff because it's all loving poison. It seems like "group hug" may have a different, lamer definition in other groups. If that's the case, I don't blame people for disliking it if it doesn't loving win. Also: I am pretty sure I did piss off Toshimo. Most of what he said seemed to be a direct response to things that I think he inferred from that terrible Zedruu deck I posted, and from stuff I said prior. For example, I said I was having problems with mana in two test games, and I took his comments about mana bases as a response to that. But I can't tell if he was jumping to conclusions on me with that comment, or if he has had a lot of other people have issues with mana bases in the past. I know how mana ratios work, even if I'm new to this format. His comment on that was unnecessarily rude, not to mention made some assumptions about me and my group (if it was about me). If it wasn't about me, then there's a lot of people out there that aren't putting enough lands in their decks, I guess. I may just be paranoid. hoobajoo posted:Toshimo, I always appreciate you laying down the hard truth on us, EDH needs more real talk. You told me in no uncertain terms to play Frantic Search in Talrand, I trusted you, and I've never regretted it. I appreciate feedback from anyone who knows their poo poo, Toshimo included. I just don't want incorrect assumptions made about me (or anyone) in the process. There's a good chance that didn't actually happen, so whatever. I appreciate help. Speaking of which, Archenteron posted:You have a surprising amount of non aura buff enchantments, none of the Umbra series, and (though this is the most understandable due to its mana cost but it's particularly powerful with Uril) Runes of the Deus Some of the non-aura enchantments (Strength from the Fallen, etc.) may come out in favor of better auras for Uril. My budget is pretty low. This deck has an unusually high budget due to the Serra's Sanctum and Worship, which by themselves are worth more than most of my other entire decks. I just happened to have those leftover from an old Type II deck that escaped the purge 15 years ago. I just started playing again three months ago, so I'm making do with what I have, but I'm also not aware of a great deal of the stuff from the last 15 years. I'm in the process of doing research, but the Umbra stuff somehow escaped my attention. Thanks for the tip! (They're also not expensive, which is rad). Toshimo posted:Legit question: Why use artifact ramp instead of Enchantment ramp? I don't have a lot of the good ones. I guess I could swap out the artifacts for some of the cheap options I have, and swap those out later once I get better ones. I only have things like Fertile Ground and Wild Growth. I guess those might be better than these 3 cost artifacts. alansmithee posted:As to the deck, I really don't like the gruul turf/selesnya sanctuary/rupture spire/transguild promenade with all the other enter the board tapped lands. Mana base is the biggest problem I see, just because it looks pretty slow with all those tapped lands. Also I'd look to use more 2 cmc cost rocks rather than the 3 cost. 3+ color decks are rough for me because the tap lands are all I have. I have a handful of the rare lands from Kaladesh, and a few others that don't tap when they come in, but otherwise I stuck using guild gates and gain lands because that's what is around. It's not as much of an issue in a two color deck, but it does kind of slow things down here. Same with the 3 cost mana rocks. I'll probably replace a lot of the artifacts anyway (see above), but I'm using what I have. I got a boatload of Fellwar Stones and Commander Spheres from Puca Trade because they're cheap, and that has floated me pretty well. Those and the Sol Ring may be the only mana rocks left once I sub out the rest for enchantments (when I get them). Academy Rector is too rich for my blood. Same with Enlightened Tutor. They're on the want list, but I'm not counting on them anytime soon. I have two enchantresses (Mesa and Verduran). I had forgotten about Argothian Enchantresses, and she's the best of the three, so I'll see about getting a copy. She's only $5, so that's... doable, maybe. Enchantress' Presence is also on my list. The mana cost on this deck has crept up a bit, so I'll probably swap out a few of the fatties for more targeted removal. I only have two Swords ot Plowshares, and they're both committed to other decks, but I'm looking to get more. Non-creature removal is more of an issue anyway, especially artifacts. I'll probably have to throw in Disenchant and a couple of other things until I can find better options. I have a hard time adding one time, one target removal spells because they seem so weak in this format. But I guess a timely Disenchant could make or break a game. Thanks for the help, everyone!
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Dec 30, 2016 14:45
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Tim Raines IRL posted:yeah, that was the conclusion I came to with my dumb simulator; if all you care about is "can I keep an opening hand", 50 is better than 30. But, a 50 land deck will have awful topdecks, so... It sounds like 40 is the healthy middle ground. I run about 37 to 42, depending on the deck, and I rarely have trouble. (Although it looks like the Uril deck I posted earlier is way short of that, but that may be because of mana producing creatures and such. I'll probably add more anyway.) There are some ways to mitigate have too much land (cycling, etc.), but I'd be willing to bet that having too much is preferable to having too few. Like, your odds of winning would be better if you're drawing more than the optimal number than less.
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Dec 31, 2016 19:33
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I need some suggestions for defense in an R/U deck that I just built. I'm working on getting some more essentials (Copy Artifact, Mizzium Transreliquat, Fevered Visions, etc.) but I'm looking for ideas along the lines of Propaganda. Crawlspace is also on my list of things to get (maybe), but I'm sure there's better options. Any ideas?
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Jan 11, 2017 01:58
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Bugsy posted:Check your local walmart/target/meijer whatever 3rd party they have that stocks magic stuff has old pre-cons a lot of the time. Two weeks ago, I found a copy of the Atraxa precon jammed way behind a bunch of other Magic poo poo at my local Target.
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Jan 28, 2017 13:01
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I built a janky combo deck using the Energy mechanic. I was looking for a 3 or 4 color commander for it, and settled on Yidris. It's janky only because I built it with garbage I had left over from other things, but I tried it a couple of times and it's so goddamn fun that I want to get some better stuff to beef it up. I don't even have some of the staple Energy cards (most of all, Aether Hub), but it still goes off like crazy. With Yidris' cascades, a couple of tutors, a Trinket Mage, and Trophy Mage, I can usually get 2 or 3 of the Kaladesh Modules into play. That is: 10 Gain 1 Energy when I put a creature into play. 20 Place a +1/+1 counter when I gain Energy. 30 Pay 1 mana to make a Servo token. 40 Goto 10, unless mana is depleted. The only limit is colorless mana, but with an Ashnod's Altar that (albeit card-intensive) combo nets me infinite Servos, infinite +1/+1 counters, infinite Energy, and infinite colorless mana simultaneously. It's four cards, ll of which I can dig for or cascade into really easily. But that's not really the goal of the deck. That's just the funniest thing I've been able to do so far. It mostly just gets a ton of Energy and slams out a ton of token creatures and blows poo poo up. It's the most fun I've had with a first draft built with leftovers. https://deckbox.org/sets/1615961 I need more Energy staples, and a couple more ways to get Yidris through safely (I have a Key to the City, but it's in my Narset deck). The good thing about this deck is that if Yidris gets stymied, the whole deck doesn't grind to a halt. I also need to add a few counterspells, but I just noticed that.
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Feb 1, 2017 18:03
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Gynovore posted:Joven's Tools??? The Joven's Tools is a placeholder for Key to the City, Rogue's Passage, etc. I have nine other Commander decks built and I didn't loot any of them for parts, so things got real bad in a couple of places. I'll probably swap out Marchesa's Smuggler eventually, since he's more fragile than an artifacts that do the same thing. Good call on the mana rocks, though. I was thinking the keyrunes might give me a way to get artifact creatures into play to use with drop-in triggers, but I'm not finding myself using them for that in play, so I'll swap them out for Fellwar Stone, Darksteel Ingot, etc. I think I have a couple copies of Live Fast that I overlooked. That's at least something I can do with what I have on hand.
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Feb 1, 2017 19:23
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Toshimo posted:Why are you using a commander that makes your cards cascade with cards that are bad to cascade into and no cards that exploit cascade? Like I said, it's more for the color identity than anything else. At first I was thinking about making it G/U/R, but I have some good Energy stuff for black. I wanted to try this with four colors, and any G/U/R/B pair of partners wasn't looking great for what I'm doing. (I thought about trying this with Breya first, but I like Yidris' color identity slightly better for what I have). Cutting it back to Temur color identity isn't off the table once I get some of the better G/U/R Energy stuff, but whatever commander I end up with in those colors would have to outdo the advantages I'm getting from adding black and using Yidris. I guess I don't understand what you mean by "bad to cascade into." It's casting spells for free, and there's a ton of synergistic drop-in triggers so the more I can cast in a turn the better off all of that stuff is. Cascade in this deck is a form of card advantage too, and in some situations it's a way to dig for cards with a specific casting cost. If I want a particular 1-drop, say like the Animation Module, then I can deliberately cast a 2 CMC and hope that the Module is what I get. This works better for some (low) CMC's than others, but I've been able to play tactically to get what I need more reliably, or at least more often, because of cascade. It's definitely not as dedicated to the mechanic as most Yidris decks, if that's what you mean. Cascade is a bonus to this deck, not a necessity.
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Feb 2, 2017 20:08
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RembrandtQEinstein posted:Alesha into Master of Cruelties is super fun and would recommend. Having been the victim of this recently, I can confirm. 
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Feb 6, 2017 12:22
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Shadow225 posted:Also, what are some cheap (money wise ) tutors? I don't want to drop the hard dosh on Vampiric/Demonic Tutors, even though I know they are good. For Breya specifically, Trinket Mage and Trophy Mage are both good budget options. Trophy Mage only fetches artifacts at exactly 3 CMC, though, so her effectiveness will depend on what artifacts you end up running.
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Feb 10, 2017 22:08
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I've been trying to use Yidris, and my issue with him is the same with most commanders that need to do combat damage to do their thing. If I need to get him through in order to make his ability fire, why not just make it a Voltron deck and go punch people in the dick with commander damage? I guess the answer to that is, "because cascade is good and fun," but sometimes that isn't a satisfying answer.
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Mar 1, 2017 00:06
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Aniodia posted:I will say that last time my group got together (i.e. last Friday), we only had one 3-hour game, where we tend to be able to squeeze two, maybe even three games in depending upon the number attending and work schedules. Admittedly, there was a bit of durdling early on as people got their manabase up and functional, but between the five of us it never felt like it was really slow or drawn out for the sake of it. There was a lot of plays and counter-plays, and everyone felt like they were justthisclose to taking control of the game. Even the long-time friend of mine that I invited to join the group (which was my bro and a couple of other childhood friends) said that it was one of the better games he's played in a long time, and his Lin Sivvi deck with infinite life got Commandered out via a doublestriking 12/13 Karametra under Camouflage. When I started reading the thread a couple months ago, I didn't understand the hate for group hug decks because my impression of it was different than what was apparently happening elsewhere. My definition was, "a deck that kills everyone with kindness." It disincentives the other players from going after you because you're letting them draw cards or gain life or whatever. But you're holding some serious poo poo that can and will kill people, so eventually (or constantly) you poison their gifts. That's what I thought a group hug deck was because it's Magic and you're supposed to win the fuckin game. That is, until ran into one last week. Fuckin' thing had no winning strategy whatsoever, and did so deliberately, "for fun." No one was having fun. Drawing cards and gaining life is only fun if there's poo poo happening as the result of it. Like people dying. I played my version of a group hug deck (Niv-Mizzet) in game 2 and deliberately went after that player, who wasn't even playing the group hug deck anymore. I didn't know what he planned to do (he was using Selavala Returned, so god only knows), but I just didn't want him to waste two hours of everyone's time again. I targeted him with a Black Vise on turn one and machinegunned all of his creatures to death constantly with Niv-Mizzet. I managed to get three Psychosis Crawlers into play (with two copies from Saheeli's Artistry), but I had already killed him with a Rogue's Passage'd 18/18 Crawler the turn before the copies came into play. I left Selvala in play to the very end and thanked her for her service to the cause. Why do people play decks that literally, deliberately, can't win? Like, why are you even playing Magic at that point? Play a fuckin co-op board game or something. Christ.
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Mar 1, 2017 12:40
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hoobajoo posted:My guess is they're really insecure and losing makes them feel bad, but if they weren't even trying to win that shields their ego. 'Oh I could totally win", says their inner voice, "but I'm not even trying, this is my 'fun' deck, so when I lose it's not my fault", that sort of thing. Al the while not really thinking about what effect that has on the other players at the table or the fact that they're basically kingmaking every game. I used to play VTES and go to regional and national tourneys. This kind of poo poo would get people DQ'd in tourneys at any level. "Play to win" is literally in the rules. Making sure people play to win, not collude, not deliberately kingmake, and not waste everyone's time is important in a multiplayer game that could take up to a couple hours. And this is coming from a guy who plays commander casually. You can play around your kitchen table with buddies and beers and still play to win. quote:A "group hug" deck with a legitimate victory condition usually to my eye often look like stax or combo decks. Either it's breaking the symmetry on its effects to its advantage or killing the opponents before they can take advantage of the extra resources. That's good to know. My "group hug" deck definitely breaks the symmetry of who benefits when I do poo poo. I'm going to let everyone draw cards! Except you get hurt when you draw cards. And when I draw cards. And when I discard cards. And also you might get decked. Qui bono? Me, motherfucker.  It's not really Stax because it doesn't lock anyone down quite enough, although everyone else is getting punished for existing, so there's that. If the deck wins, people are dying before they can use any of the 30 cards I just let them cycle through. When it loses, it's usually a close timing thing: I let enough people draw enough cards to turn around and take me out before I can do the same to them. All I know is, group hugs are best when someone is holding a knife.
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Mar 1, 2017 21:38
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Gynovore posted:Smart people play group hug decks with an infinite combo or two buried deep inside. Morons play decks that durdle all day long until the group gets bored and pounds him. There's plenty of ways, and they aren't even through specific cards (although there are some that are notorious for it). You can find yourself in a situation that is presently unwinnable for whatever reason and rather than work to dig yourself out of that situation, you tip the game toward someone else (usually your prey). Because there is a circular attack relationship, someone not doing their job as a predator is as good as kingmaking for their prey. There's a fine line between doing that on purpose and just genuinely getting hosed. Sometimes your predator puts you into a hole you can't get out of. That's their job, after all, but that shouldn't mean you stop playing to win. There are some cards that enable really gross kingmaking maneuvers when placed in the hands of douchebags: Dramatic Upheaval and Kindred Restructure both rearrange the seating of the table and are really easy ways to kingmake, if one were inclined toward being a dumbshit. (They were both banned for that and a couple of other reasons). "Trick deck" cards that you have to build around but don't do anything about doing your loving job, like Brainwash, can go to hell too. Brainwash decks would make sure your prey couldn't play any minions and then just.... sit there. They'd kill their own prey slowly, and wouldn't have enough resources to Brainwash everyone at a five player (or even four player) table, so you'd kingmake your prey's prey by letting them run around without a predator for the whole game.
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Mar 2, 2017 12:43
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Gynovore posted:I guess kingmaking is a judgement call. I used to have a political deck that wouldn't touch my prey for at least a dozen turns while I racked up Praxis Seizures. That's fine. You can play a long con, as long as you're eventually doing something to oust your prey. VTES is by nature a longer game than most Magic games, so it's expected that some decks take a while to get going. It's the decks that outright have no pathways to winning that kingmake for their prey.
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Mar 2, 2017 16:34
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Gynovore posted:Kindred Restructure was banned because it allowed someone to sit on their rear end while other people whittled down their prey, then make the weak player their prey and grab an easy VP. Seriously, that card should never have been printed. Dramatic Upheaval was banned because of a stupid infinite combo. What was the infinite combo around Dramatic Upheaval? It's like Kindred Restructure, but more limited in its effect. I can understand why both were banned, because "poaching" VPs was pretty lame, even if you had to jump through lots of hoops to do it (unblocked action, successful referendum, and then finish the poach). Most casual games have a similar rule. VPs only mattered in tournaments, and for some cards that call for them. Besides, most of the time the last player standing would be the VP winner anyway. But to keep things on topic to commander: I'm putting together a Zada deck on the cheap. I ran a search for red instants and sorceries with cantrip effects because drawing a million cards is fun (Expedite, Accelerate, Balduvian Rage, etc) but I'm looking for other fun, weird poo poo to do with Zada. Kari Zev's Expertise seems like it would be hilarious. I'm also toying with the idea of using Allies for their synergy, since Zada is an Ally herself. But that's probably a terrible idea because of the color restriction. Any ideas?
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Mar 9, 2017 12:56
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Gynovore posted:Play Malkavian Madness Network (your Malkavians can take actions or other player's turns). At the end of your prey's turn, play Dramatic Upheaval and swap places with your prey, thus taking the next turn. On your new prey's turn, do it again, ad infinitum. It's not really infinite, but since no one will ever take a turn as your predator, the only blood you ever lose is from your nose, as your playgroup repeatedly punches you there. Similar shenanigans can be had by playing Reversal of Fortunes on your prey's turn, taking the next turn, Reversal again on your turn, repeat forever. Ah. Right. loving Malkavians, ruining everything for everyone. But, yeah, KR and DU were terrible cards. As for Zada, I'm trying to put together a mono-color deck for each color, just for the challenge. I already have Odric for W and Yisan for G (daring choices, I know). Zada seems like a fun option that's in the spirit of mono R. I'd also take suggestions for mono U and mono B commanders, keeping in mind I don't tend to drop more than five bucks for any one card. I like the idea of Jalira for U, maybe. No ideas for B yet.
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Mar 9, 2017 13:56
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En Fuego posted:Sisay wants Paradox Engine. Agreed about Paradox Engine. I have a stupid idea for a deck using a ton of Inspired dudes. I have this dream of having King Macar, Sphinx's Disciple, and a Paradox Engine in play and turning everyone into gold. I have an early, untested version of the deck built without Paradox Engine, but I might proxy it in just to see what dumb poo poo it can do.
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Apr 3, 2017 12:27
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I was on the receiving end of Alesha/Master of Cruelties a few weeks ago, so I can attest to how fun and cool Alesha is. I mean, I lost, but it was kind of cool to get wiped out by someone basically breaking the rules of how Master of Cruelties is supposed to work.
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Apr 3, 2017 14:56
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En Fuego posted:Played against a kid who would only play his Leovold deck this weekend. One game he got to do Leovold stuff, but misread Dark Deal and had Thought Reflection out so at one point he drew his entire deck and lost. Second time everyone ganged up on him and killed him. I agree that a buy-in and prize changes the game. "Fun" playing with buddies means "play some fun, cool cards and kill your friends." "Fun" in a tournament means "win some fuckin money." En Fuego posted:Also, they REALLY need to ban Paradox Engine. Paradox Engine might get banned, but not until everyone gets sick of seeing it in every EDH deck. It'll be a year or two, if at all. It's in at least every game when my group plays, whether or not it hits the table. It's fun as hell, but it is starting to over saturate things. But it hasn't been around long enough for any of us to get truly sick of it. In the meantime, I eagerly await using it to go infinite in a W/U/B inspired deck I just built. I want to turn everything into gold with King Macar in one turn. With Paradox Engine and one or two more pieces, this is possible. 
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Apr 16, 2017 18:39
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The Shortest Path posted:I haven't seen Paradox Engine once since it got printed, just like I haven't seen Intruder Alarm in years despite that being better in decks that want to abuse it. The idea that it needs a ban despite only being good when you have at least a few mana rocks/dorks on the board and are hugely vulnerable to sweepers as a result is crazy to me. The argument I've heard, that I don't necessarily agree with, is that it's colorless and therefore potentially getting put into every deck like, say, Primeval Titan gets put into every green deck. I think it's good even without building around it, but it's obviously better in decks with tons of non-land mana and healthy card advantage to keep things going. I could throw it in about six of my decks without doing anything else to those decks and it would work like a charm. It wouldn't be as funny as King Macar, but it would do dumb poo poo and probably create infinite combos in a few of those decks. That said, I don't think it should be banned, but it wouldn't surprise me if it does just out of sheer overuse.
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Apr 16, 2017 22:54
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