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Gigi Galli posted:T. silva, Luiz for some reason, and Neymar will play again. The others aren't big enough names or were exposed as total garbage. Oscar should as well.
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Jul 13, 2014 03:36
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Oscar will definitely be called again. Luiz shouldn't be but he will.
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Jul 13, 2014 05:10
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The best thing about today's match is that before it there were reports that Scolari was coming back, and then immediately after it they reported that the head of CBF had changed his mind and he would accept Scolari's resignation. As for the players, a lot of them will be back. Neymar, Oscar, Bernard, Willian and Paulinho are all 25 or younger. And in any case, a lot of the problems were of positioning, not individual skill. Scolari was totally out of his depth. His last job before taking over the national team was getting relegated in the Brazilian league with Palmeiras. He was relegated despite the fact that Palmeiras had one of the largest budgets in Brazilian league. Word in Brazilian media is that Alexandre Gallo, the u-20 coach, will take over for now. He'd be the one to start to integrate the 09-11 u20 teams into the main team, and the idea would be that he'd be in place short term, and long term they'd try to get someone like Pep or Mourinho to come over. I don't know if that is true, but if it is I expect a really young team going forward. Juan, Allan Kardec, Coutinho, Gabriel, Marquinhos, etc. should get called up. Of course, most of the problems won't be solved because CBF is corrupt as gently caress. But at least Brazil will play South American qualifiers, which means they won't be able to fool anyone by beating on dead horses during the confederations cup.
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Jul 13, 2014 05:31
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joepinetree posted:But at least Brazil will play South American qualifiers Oh, right  Well it was nice to make it to two world cups in a row. See you in 20 years.
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Jul 13, 2014 05:50
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Can Luiz be prevented from making terrible decisions? Like, he could be really good if he were restricted to the defensive half of the pitch at all times.
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Jul 13, 2014 05:52
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Maoist Pussy posted:Can Luiz be prevented from making terrible decisions? Like, he could be really good if he were restricted to the defensive half of the pitch at all times. A shock collar, perhaps?
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Jul 13, 2014 06:06
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joepinetree posted:Word in Brazilian media is that Alexandre Gallo, the u-20 coach, will take over for now. He'd be the one to start to integrate the 09-11 u20 teams into the main team, and the idea would be that he'd be in place short term, and long term they'd try to get someone like Pep or Mourinho to come over. I don't know if that is true, but if it is I expect a really young team going forward. Juan, Allan Kardec, Coutinho, Gabriel, Marquinhos, etc. should get called up. ugh christ are they really thinking about getting a non-brazilian?
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Jul 13, 2014 06:22
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It was commented down here by some journos after the loss to Germany that the CBF had already talked to Tite and that Felipao would be going to Gremio (ugh). Was that bs or have they moved on on the Tite thing already?
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Jul 13, 2014 06:44
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Badger of Basra posted:ugh christ Pep was widely rumored to be the front runner in 2012, but the head of CBF decided against him because he wanted a Brazilian coach. Given the Scolari fiasco, and the lack of up and coming Brazilian coaches, speculation has been rampant that they'd get a non-Brazilian one. Specially since there is a lot of talk of Brazilian coaches being outdated. There are reports that Mourinho has been contacted, but his current deal runs through 2017. Given the current situation, I think the only Brazilian coaches who would not face instant rejection from the public are Cuca and Tite. Cuca has just signed a huge deal in China and would be insane to take the Brazilian position right now. Tite is the big mystery here. It has long been rumored that Tite was going to take over after Scolari. He has rejected offers from several Brazilian and European clubs, and the assumption was that it was because he had a deal with CBF, but so far most rumors don't mention him. I'd still place him as favorite, but the silence around his name has been surprising, and even Globo speculating about Scolari staying (prior to the match)and Mourinho (immediately after) indicates something weird going on. joepinetree fucked around with this message at 06:59 on Jul 13, 2014 |
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Jul 13, 2014 06:49
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It's cool that Brazil shipped off 10 goals in their last two matches, I doubt any other semi finalist ever went out of the world cup in such a humiliating fashion, and they are the hosts to boot. Really incredible, and to think that ahead of this world cup most people thought Brazil had one of the best defenses in the world.
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Jul 13, 2014 07:25
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emanresu tnuocca posted:It's cool that Brazil shipped off 10 goals in their last two matches, I doubt any other semi finalist ever went out of the world cup in such a humiliating fashion, and they are the hosts to boot. Really incredible, and to think that ahead of this world cup most people thought Brazil had one of the best defenses in the world. No one who knew anything about football thought a defence containing Marcelo, David Luiz, and Dani Alves would be one of the best in the world at preventing goals.
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Jul 13, 2014 07:30
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vyelkin posted:No one who knew anything about football thought a defence containing Marcelo, David Luiz, and Dani Alves would be one of the best in the world at preventing goals. Marcelo had a really good year at Madrid, mostly offensively but he wasn't a defensive liability at any point, Alves hasn't had a good year but he was considered the best fullback in the world for like half a decade, people expected him to step up. And Luiz? well, yeah anyone who's seen him play knows he's a huge joker but he played in the best defense in the premier league this past season, and many people think he's some sort of prodigy. And let us not forget Silva who pretty much everyone thinks is the best center back in the world alongside Kompany. Yes right now it's easy to say they're all a bunch of jokers but ahead of the tournament it looked like a very solid line-up.
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Jul 13, 2014 07:36
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emanresu tnuocca posted:Marcelo had a really good year at Madrid, mostly offensively but he wasn't a defensive liability at any point, Alves hasn't had a good year but he was considered the best fullback in the world for like half a decade, people expected him to step up. And Luiz? well, yeah anyone who's seen him play knows he's a huge joker but he played in the best defense in the premier league this past season, and many people think he's some sort of prodigy. Allow me to offer a counterpoint as someone that was naysaying this team from the beginning. Thiago Silva was legit and we all knew it, but Dani Alves has always been less-than-stellar for the national team (and I still think he's overhyped in Europe, much like Roberto Carlos before him), Marcelo is bad at defending and most people that watched football semi-regularly hated David Luiz at CB, and now are furious that his goofy personality is saving his rear end from a well-deserved lashing. We were weak defensively, something that was only mitigated by Luiz Gustavo doing a fine job as DM and Brazil playing a possession-based passing game against opponents that allowed it.
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Jul 13, 2014 07:52
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emanresu tnuocca posted:Marcelo had a really good year at Madrid, mostly offensively but he wasn't a defensive liability at any point, Alves hasn't had a good year but he was considered the best fullback in the world for like half a decade, people expected him to step up. And Luiz? well, yeah anyone who's seen him play knows he's a huge joker but he played in the best defense in the premier league this past season, and many people think he's some sort of prodigy. Before the Germany game Brazil was 54% favorite (of the 4 teams in the semifinals) to win the worldcup according to ~advanced statistics~. They were beaten to pulp by the German machine and did not recover in time for the game against the Netherlands, being dead after the goal in the 3rd minute of that game.
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Jul 13, 2014 07:53
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emanresu tnuocca posted:Marcelo had a really good year at Madrid, mostly offensively but he wasn't a defensive liability at any point, Alves hasn't had a good year but he was considered the best fullback in the world for like half a decade, people expected him to step up. And Luiz? well, yeah anyone who's seen him play knows he's a huge joker but he played in the best defense in the premier league this past season, and many people think he's some sort of prodigy. Philipp Lahm was a better fullback than Alves anyway.
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Jul 13, 2014 07:54
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Fred has retired as a player for the national team. The whole country will be in mourning.
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Jul 13, 2014 08:43
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emanresu tnuocca posted:Marcelo had a really good year at Madrid, mostly offensively but he wasn't a defensive liability at any point, Alves hasn't had a good year but he was considered the best fullback in the world for like half a decade, people expected him to step up. And Luiz? well, yeah anyone who's seen him play knows he's a huge joker but he played in the best defense in the premier league this past season, and many people think he's some sort of prodigy. Alves and Marcelo are good defensively when they're in teams that compensate for their tendency to go pretend they're wingers. They have good defensive skills in that they can make tackles or interceptions when they have to, but their positioning and mentality has always been suspect because they are so attack-minded. They can be very effective players at the club level, when they have managers who surround them with good defensive players and adjust the team's strategy around the fact that Alves or Marcelo will be bombing forward at every opportunity. Scolari didn't do that. Instead he just let them both go attack all the time and didn't really bother drilling the team on how to defend when they're the ones under pressure. And Luiz is a garbageman. He was in the best defence in the premier league this season because Mourinho managed his club and dropped Luiz to play Cahill and Terry instead (Luiz only played 19 times in the Premier League last season), and then sold Luiz the instant he found a team willing to pay for his reputation rather than his actual ability. Thiago Silva is probably the best central defender in the world, but even he can't make up for three out of three defenders in the line alongside him being complete liabilities.
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Jul 13, 2014 08:46
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vyelkin posted:Alves and Marcelo are good defensively when they're in teams that compensate for their tendency to go pretend they're wingers. They have good defensive skills in that they can make tackles or interceptions when they have to, but their positioning and mentality has always been suspect because they are so attack-minded. They can be very effective players at the club level, when they have managers who surround them with good defensive players and adjust the team's strategy around the fact that Alves or Marcelo will be bombing forward at every opportunity. Scolari didn't do that. Instead he just let them both go attack all the time and didn't really bother drilling the team on how to defend when they're the ones under pressure. I know Luiz didn't start this year, I know he's a garbageman, I'm actually a chels fan. But basically read what you just said, you had 3/4 defenders with the potential to form a great defensive line up in the right system. When you look at the squad sheet before the tournament, or heck, before the germany match even, it would seem like a super solid defense, and indeed most pundits expected Brazil's defense (and midfield) to form a very solid foundation.
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Jul 13, 2014 09:08
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The only thing stopping David Luiz from being a fantastic defender is his mentality. And the thing influencing him to have an irresponsible mentality is his goofy hair. A simple shearing, and Brazil would have won the copa del mundial.
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Jul 13, 2014 10:06
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emanresu tnuocca posted:I know Luiz didn't start this year, I know he's a garbageman, I'm actually a chels fan. But basically read what you just said, you had 3/4 defenders with the potential to form a great defensive line up in the right system. When you look at the squad sheet before the tournament, or heck, before the germany match even, it would seem like a super solid defense, and indeed most pundits expected Brazil's defense (and midfield) to form a very solid foundation. That is not what he said at all and Brazil's defence was always an Achilles heel. A great defence in the right system? The right system requires three or more players in midfield dropping back to compensate for movement in the defensive line with those players. That isn't a system, that's poor selection and tactical ineptitude. Brazil have, for years now, basically played with wingbacks, two central defenders, and then played two holding midfielders in front of them to compensate for the fact that Alves and Marcelo are going to spend at least 50% of their time in the midfield or further forward. The addition of David Luiz's forward movement to that takes a perilous situation in defence and turns it into a ticking time bomb. This was compounded by the fact that of the midfielders, Gustavo was the only one who appeared to have specific orders to cover for defensive players going forward. The end result of that was quite visible in the Germany game and repeated itself in the game against the Netherlands, even with Maicon playing for Alves - any side that countered quickly and accurately was offered an opportunity against a single central defender with a covering defensive midfielder while the rest of the (so-called) defence scrambled to get back into the defensive line from midfield or further forward. The only way the Brazilian wingback system works is in a 3-5-2 (becoming 3-4-1-2 on attack), and without David Luiz playing central defence. And even then it is a vulnerability if teams are quick to attack during transitions in play.
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Jul 13, 2014 10:18
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Not a single player in their defensive lineup plays in a club that plays 3-5-2 or any formation with wingbacks yet they're all great performers for their clubs (asides from Luiz). In fact, none of them actually play for a team that plays more than two defensive midfielders either. So... you're wrong? The notion that a defensive line up consisting of Marcelo, Silva and Alves is weak and just cannot work competently and that this should be 'obvious to anyone who knows anything about football' is plain bullshit, it's a strong defensive line-up. Marcelo and Alves both play in teams where their counterparts are also offensive fullbacks, so it's not like them playing on the same team is somehow not-workable at all. Asides from the germans and maybe Italy, there wasn't a single team in this tournament that had a better defensive line-up, that Brazil's defense would perform so poorly was not a foregone conclusion before the semi-final.
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Jul 13, 2014 10:45
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I'd wager that every other team that conceded less than Brazil at this tournament had a better defensive line-up. So about 31 teams.
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Jul 13, 2014 10:50
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In other words: you must've missed the 10 goals Brazil conceded between the quarter-finals and now. Their defensive organization is built solely on Silva and Gustavo trying to create the illusion of four men at the back while the rest act as headless chicken.
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Jul 13, 2014 10:52
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Healbot posted:In other words: you must've missed the 10 goals Brazil conceded between the quarter-finals and now. Their defensive organization is built solely on Silva and Gustavo trying to create the illusion of four men at the back while the rest act as headless chicken. I never said that they performed well. In other words: Perhaps you should try reading a post if you're gonna respond to it.
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Jul 13, 2014 10:56
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If you've got Maicon riding the bench to start, you're in pretty good shape. Alves and Marcelo were basically the two guys you would pick in the world if you wanted to be able to push up on the wings with your right and left back. Silva is incredible, and David Luiz was no joke coming into the world cup. They legitimately had one of the best defensive lineups in the cup, but poo poo went downhill quick, and they never recovered. That's why they call it the beautiful game.
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Jul 13, 2014 11:21
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It's entirely Scolari's fault. Talented defense and midfield but can't squeeze a performance out of it. Guess when you don't have Ronaldo, Rivaldo and Ronaldinho your tactical naivety gets shown.
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Jul 13, 2014 11:54
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Volkerball posted:and David Luiz was no joke coming into the world cup. lol yes he was.
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Jul 13, 2014 11:54
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emanresu tnuocca posted:Not a single player in their defensive lineup plays in a club that plays 3-5-2 or any formation with wingbacks yet they're all great performers for their clubs (asides from Luiz). In fact, none of them actually play for a team that plays more than two defensive midfielders either. So... you're wrong? You're really missing the point of what I and others are saying. In their club sides, Alves, Marcelo, and Luiz get systems built around their tendencies to get forward, by surrounding them with other players who stay back and play more defensively. At Barcelona, for example, Alves and Alba both bomb forward so Busquets drops back in between the two centre backs and they push out wide to cover the space. Their club sides have one, at most two defenders who get forward that much. At Barcelona, even when they have two (both fullbacks) getting forward, they have a midfielder drop back to make sure there's still adequate defensive cover. Absolutely none of their club sides have three out of four defender bombing forward on the attack. None of them. What you're essentially saying is "These three players do well for their clubs in systems where one or two defenders get forward, therefore you're wrong and no one could predict that they would do poorly in a system where three defenders get forward." Clit Avoider has it absolutely right. All three playing the way they do with their club sides, either not told to be defensively disciplined by Scolari or ignoring him if they were told that, left one defender and one midfielder to play defence. Against Germany this was painfully exposed when Dante and Gustavo were unable to fill four or five defensive spots all on their own when Brazil were caught in possession with three out of four defenders up the pitch, and Germany had huge overlaps and attacking players in acres of space.
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Jul 13, 2014 14:17
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Volkerball posted:If you've got Maicon riding the bench to start, you're in pretty good shape. Maicon's been poo poo since Mourinho left Inter, he's a galloping buffoon and now he's old as well.
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Jul 13, 2014 14:17
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vyelkin posted:You're really missing the point of what I and others are saying. In their club sides, Alves, Marcelo, and Luiz get systems built around their tendencies to get forward, by surrounding them with other players who stay back and play more defensively. At Barcelona, for example, Alves and Alba both bomb forward so Busquets drops back in between the two centre backs and they push out wide to cover the space. Nah I'm not, you're just analyzing the defensive line-up from a post-mortem perspective, quite obtusely tbqh. If systems exist that can accommodate these players, and Brazil has the players to play those systems then it is -wrong- to say that anyone who looked at the players called up by scolari should have easily known that their defense would be farcical ahead of the tournament, which is exactly what you've said. It's not like Brazil doesn't have any defensive midfielders who are capable of performing the same role Bosquets does. We're not arguing whether brazil played like poo poo and defended in a comical fashion or not, we're arguing whether it was "obvious to anyone who knows anything about football" before the tournament. And the simple answer is that no, it wasn't. Once again, I'm not saying Luiz is not a retard and personally I expected him to do make some defensive blunders which cost Brazil a few goals, and I alluded to him being a clown several times. This is getting too boring and D&D-esque, the simple fact is that many people, including some who do know "poo poo" about football, thought that Brazil's defense was actually one if its better qualities. The majority of critique before they got smashed by the Germans was at the strikers Scolari chose to summon.
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Jul 13, 2014 14:29
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Bale killed Maicon. His ghost can still be heard some wet Thurday nights across pitches all over the world.
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Jul 13, 2014 15:33
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emanresu tnuocca posted:We're not arguing whether brazil played like poo poo and defended in a comical fashion or not, we're arguing whether it was "obvious to anyone who knows anything about football" before the tournament. And the simple answer is that no, it wasn't. Everybody was focused on the bad strikers and didn't really consider how the attack-minded defense would affect the team when all of them went forward to support Jo/Hulk/Fred but they immediately gave the ball away.
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Jul 13, 2014 17:08
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Best touted defense = giving a Netherlands player the sheer luxury of no less than 3 touches while openly facing forward and right in front at goal. Amateurish is too good as a description.
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Jul 13, 2014 18:33
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i'm getting very triggered by people criticizing David Luiz and his incredible good looks. Please stop it.
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Jul 13, 2014 22:00
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Mans posted:i'm getting very triggered by people criticizing David Luiz and his incredible good looks. Please stop it. Maybe if he gets a loving haircut so he stops looking like Sideshow Bob.
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Jul 13, 2014 22:29
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Polidoro posted:Oh, right Relax, if anything it will be us who won't make it for the first time 
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Jul 14, 2014 00:16
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Polidoro posted:Oh, right See you in never lol This really was Venezuela's best shot at finally qualifying...
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Jul 14, 2014 00:18
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Mans posted:i'm getting very triggered by people criticizing David Luiz and his incredible good looks. Please stop it. I think his hair is thinning op. El Hefe posted:See you in never lol We'll race you to the bottom.
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Jul 14, 2014 00:32
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El Hefe posted:See you in never lol venezuela made a very poor choice re: their national sport
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Jul 14, 2014 00:52
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Badger of Basra posted:venezuela made a very poor choice re: their national sport Baseball is the national sport here because it allows people to just drink beer and run as little as possible.
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Jul 14, 2014 01:02
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