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Waffleman_ posted:It's a whole thing tied to the value of masculinity and the fear of emasculation. Yep. Masculinity is more frail than many would expect.
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Nov 12, 2014 20:22
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So what I'm getting from this is I'm either incredibly secure in my masculinity, ladies, or I'm in some sort of disassociative pre-transgender state. Good to know!
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Nov 12, 2014 20:41
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Discendo Vox posted:So, help me out here folks- is the stuff the Groom does supposed to be especially horrifying in some way? I've never had any sort of response to genital mutilation, do other people find that intrinsically more identifiable or worse or something? It's not just the genital manipulation. The build up is not "psycho enjoys mutilating dongs", the build up is "psycho enjoys emasculating men, raping them and then killing them as though he was killing women, because he was abused as a child by his father and uncle." It's a whole thing the game does with the Groom, it builds up this narrative cobbled together by the fears of the average young straight white male, and then delivers upon these fears in a gruesome (and very effective) way. Like if you stop to analyse the narrative around the Groom, you end up not just with fear of genital mutilation, but also fear of emasculation, fear of the feminine (especially childbirth), homophobia, fear of the "crazy person stereotype", and so on. Note how much time and effort the game puts into detailing the Groom's lair with mannequins with women's dresses, dressing male corpses as women, etc. It all deliberately preys upon subconscious misogyny ("No! Anything but having womanly things associated with me!!!") and the lack of heads/faces among the dead men further emphasises the way the Groom destroys a man's entire identity by removing his masculinity (which can also be compared to the objectification of women: the game seems to think that when a man loses his masculinity and gains femininity, he goes from being a subject with an identity to an object to be looked at and used). If the sole focus of the horror was on the genital mutilation, 50% of the surrounding detail/narrative around the Groom wouldn't exist. xeose4 fucked around with this message at 20:52 on Nov 12, 2014 |
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Nov 12, 2014 20:49
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But he's got a beautiful singing voice!
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Nov 12, 2014 21:15
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I find it scary because there's sections that you can't run as fast and having these fuckers chasing you is genuinely terrifying to me. Especially when you turn round to close the door and they're right behind you. Plus I can never stomach the torture scenes in this game. It's the inescapable nature of the scenes, not the actual injury, just that there's no way to get away from it. Plays into my phobias and how I react to them. Flight over fight, and when I can't get away it only makes things worse. So pretty much all of these guys freak me out.
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Nov 12, 2014 21:24
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xeose4 posted:(which can also be compared to the objectification of women: the game seems to think that when a man loses his masculinity and gains femininity, he goes from being a subject with an identity to an object to be looked at and used).
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Nov 12, 2014 22:07
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Thank you for showing us this game. It clearly is not a game I'd enjoy playing but I have been curious about it.
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Nov 12, 2014 22:20
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Keep in mind that the Gluskin, even inside his imagined reality, is pretty horrible to women. He pretty clearly views them as receptacles for his sperm whose only role is to give him children and a purpose in life. He dreams of "an old-fashioned girl who loves only him" and vehemently dislikes "sluts with their swiney judging eyes". A woman can fail him in many ways: not being immediately enthralled with his charm, trying to run away from him, not being cheerful enough when suffering terrible pain and becoming ugly. And failing the Groom means being violently disposed of, while being chided for not being good enough. I don't see the Groom's story being about becoming something less than a man. Rather than that, it's about having your armor peeled off. You thought that asou're safe from at least some dangers? Wrong. Here is a shitstain who would normally do the same to women, but was forced by the circumstances of his imprisonment to be more creative. Now you're the blonde with the broken heel from a slasher movie, how does it feel?
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Nov 12, 2014 22:42
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Kegluneq posted:In fairness to the game, the men the Groom attacks are already completely helpless and lacking in agency. I guess you could say it's connected to male fear of rape as much as emasculation, although I'm still not sure how well the game succeeds in portraying that with any kind of sensitivity. I don't believe the game is saying anything at all about transgender identity though. The first document you find about the Groom is a poem that directly adds the rape part to the genital mutilation. It's definitely never portrayed as "just goredongs" by the game. There's always something else associated to it. I'm sure the devs aren't consciously supporting anything negative, but the Groom section mingles "what you are supposed to be afraid of" with gender issues and it's hard to tell if the game is criticising those gender issues or deliberately preying on them for scares. Gantolandon posted:Keep in mind that the Gluskin, even inside his imagined reality, is pretty horrible to women. He pretty clearly views them as receptacles for his sperm whose only role is to give him children and a purpose in life. He dreams of "an old-fashioned girl who loves only him" and vehemently dislikes "sluts with their swiney judging eyes". A woman can fail him in many ways: not being immediately enthralled with his charm, trying to run away from him, not being cheerful enough when suffering terrible pain and becoming ugly. And failing the Groom means being violently disposed of, while being chided for not being good enough. Yeah, Gluskin's psychosis is pretty textbook: there's plenty of documented cases of straight men being sexually abused by men and then becoming aggressive and even violent towards women in order to regain a sense of control over their own sexuality. For Gluskin, enacting violence on women is a way to regain control and power after his abuse (furthermore, note how he says "I will protect our children, not like...", I am willing to bet that the person who didn't protect him was his mother, which is probably part of his rage against women). That said, the problem with "now you are the female victim in a slasher flick" is that the game goes a long way to terrorise the player with the forced feminisation aspect. We see it in the notes picked up, in the way the male corpses are dressed, in the prelude with the DID patient that delivers Waylon to Gluskin, and so on. There is actually a difference between a slasher that sees the protagonist and treats them as a female victim, and the fear of forced feminisation. Whistleblower definitely does the latter, not the former. The post-feminisation aspect is left vague. We are given vague ideas that Gluskin rapes and kills his victims, but we're not really given the level of detail and focus that we are given to the genital mutilation and dress-up aspect.
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Nov 12, 2014 23:50
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Gantolandon posted:I don't see the Groom's story being about becoming something less than a man. Rather than that, it's about having your armor peeled off. You thought that asou're safe from at least some dangers? Wrong. Here is a shitstain who would normally do the same to women, but was forced by the circumstances of his imprisonment to be more creative. Now you're the blonde with the broken heel from a slasher movie, how does it feel? Oh man, that's a hell of a way to look at it. drat. This is a weird last chapter. While there's been a little foreshadowing, the "groom" section feels wholly separated from the rest of the game, just a short story about a guy who has to escape the domain of a serial killer. I had mixed feelings. The concept of a killer who prefers women, but is deprived of them, so he transforms men into women instead, is ghoulishly creative. The scene where you witness what he does to a living victim, however, felt gratuitous and over the top. And yet, in the scene where you're seeing things from a first person perspective is really unsettling. Imagine yourself, naked, legs splayed and all your limbs tied down, and someone there who can do whatever they want to you. And what they want involves a tablesaw. I also found myself really feeling for the character of Waylon, especially when he almost weeps with pain from his busted ankle, which made the final walk out of the asylum that much more gratifying. I felt like he'd really earned that relatively positive ending. Again, really great job showing off this game, DumbRodent. I feel like you helped it show its best sides.
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Nov 12, 2014 23:58
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The Murkoff hardliners were kind of crazy too. Even to the end our exec buddy is screaming that no one must know, and there was that bit with the guard who said he'd rather kill the other guy and take his chances with the army of crazies and monsters than call the authorities for help.
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Nov 13, 2014 00:29
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I just saw this parody of the whole "when mom isn't home" meme that's going around for some reason. When Chris Walker isn't home.
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Nov 13, 2014 02:42
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Speedball posted:The Murkoff hardliners were kind of crazy too. Even to the end our exec buddy is screaming that no one must know, and there was that bit with the guard who said he'd rather kill the other guy and take his chances with the army of crazies and monsters than call the authorities for help. That part made me laugh. "NOBODY MUST KNOW!!" And there's literally blood, guts, and body parts scattered more than liberally throughout the entire goddamn asylum. Not sure how much wool they can even use to pull the eyes over anyone especially with that ending.
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Nov 13, 2014 02:45
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Vicissitude posted:I just saw this parody of the whole "when mom isn't home" meme that's going around for some reason. this is way too dumb to not love
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Nov 13, 2014 02:46
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What happened to the cook?
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Nov 13, 2014 07:31
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Vicissitude posted:I just saw this parody of the whole "when mom isn't home" meme that's going around for some reason. Sweet Jesus.
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Nov 13, 2014 08:22
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davidspackage posted:This is a weird last chapter. While there's been a little foreshadowing, the "groom" section feels wholly separated from the rest of the game, just a short story about a guy who has to escape the domain of a serial killer. I had mixed feelings. The concept of a killer who prefers women, but is deprived of them, so he transforms men into women instead, is ghoulishly creative. The scene where you witness what he does to a living victim, however, felt gratuitous and over the top. And yet, in the scene where you're seeing things from a first person perspective is really unsettling. Imagine yourself, naked, legs splayed and all your limbs tied down, and someone there who can do whatever they want to you. And what they want involves a tablesaw. xeose4 posted:I'm sure the devs aren't consciously supporting anything negative, but the Groom section mingles "what you are supposed to be afraid of" with gender issues and it's hard to tell if the game is criticising those gender issues or deliberately preying on them for scares. quote:That said, the problem with "now you are the female victim in a slasher flick" is that the game goes a long way to terrorise the player with the forced feminisation aspect. We see it in the notes picked up, in the way the male corpses are dressed, in the prelude with the DID patient that delivers Waylon to Gluskin, and so on. There is actually a difference between a slasher that sees the protagonist and treats them as a female victim, and the fear of forced feminisation. Whistleblower definitely does the latter, not the former. The post-feminisation aspect is left vague. We are given vague ideas that Gluskin rapes and kills his victims, but we're not really given the level of detail and focus that we are given to the genital mutilation and dress-up aspect. I'm also not entirely certain that Gluskin actually rapes his victims. He certainly wants to, but it doesn't seem that any of his victims have actually survived the 'transformation' into his ideal woman, nor does it seem remotely likely that any would. There's enough sexualised violence to make the point moot, perhaps. Death on the other hand is made very clear - hell, he has a room full of corpses. The process of 'feminisation', or putting dresses onto his victims, seems to be exclusively post mortem. (It's possible I missed bits of dialogue or scenery during that chase though.) Kegluneq fucked around with this message at 11:20 on Nov 13, 2014 |
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Nov 13, 2014 11:12
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Kegluneq posted:The juxtaposition of the 'birth scene' with Waylon's own memories of his children's birth gives me more of a feeling of the former than the latter. I certainly got the impression that the being-murdered-horribly bit was more important than being made to look like a woman(!) whilst it was happening. I think the actual fear of emasculation was presented more strongly in the original game, where the torture victims of Doctor Trager were expected to survive the process. Possibly, but the Groom's sequence has far more trappings of femininity than Trager's. There's a lot of emphasis on the feminisation aspect. Like I said before, if you cut those out of the game, the whole Groom sequence/lair would lack 50% of the detail. There's definitely a theme of forced feminisation that goes beyond the emasculation. Kegluneq posted:I have to disagree with this. Firstly, I think the game already positions the player in the 'slasher victim' role to begin with. The run-and-hide rather than fighting mechanic has traditionally been seen in games with female protagonists (e.g. Haunting Ground, Clock Tower 3 - both of which contained the threat of rape of the lead character), reflecting the prevalence of this trope in cinema. Secondly, I think the game actually does consistently treat the player like a female slasher victim. You have limited agency, and no ability to respond meaningfully (vocally or physically) to sexual and/or violent threats. In this regard I believe the Groom sequence emphasises a theme running throughout the game, rather than introducing a wholly new take. There's also the question of whether fear of male sexual violence is an intrinsically female trait, outside of the slasher genre. In AAA games, yes, but in indie games, most of the protagonists are male, and most of the standard indie horror games lack combat due to their low budgets. When Outlast came out, the helpless man trope was in full bloom in the indie industry. There's a very explicit threat of rape when it comes to the Groom. It's described in this document found in the episode before this one. Overall, I just don't agree that that's the angle the game is pushing with the Gluskin character. I've seen my fair share of indie horror games, and the presence of helpless male protagonists there is abundant enough to make me disbelieve any "you are now the female slasher victim!" arguments. That, plus all the additional femininity things that the game adds to the Groom's process on top of the emasculation seems to speak for itself, for me. That said, I'm glad you read it in a different way. It's always good when a thing is done well enough to spark different interpretations.
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Nov 13, 2014 13:21
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xeose4 posted:Possibly, but the Groom's sequence has far more trappings of femininity than Trager's. There's a lot of emphasis on the feminisation aspect. Like I said before, if you cut those out of the game, the whole Groom sequence/lair would lack 50% of the detail. There's definitely a theme of forced feminisation that goes beyond the emasculation. quote:In AAA games, yes, but in indie games, most of the protagonists are male, and most of the standard indie horror games lack combat due to their low budgets. When Outlast came out, the helpless man trope was in full bloom in the indie industry. (Are there any indy horror games of this style and genre with a female protagonist? I can't think of any of the top of my head.) quote:That said, I'm glad you read it in a different way. It's always good when a thing is done well enough to spark different interpretations. Fair nuff 
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Nov 13, 2014 14:24
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Kegluneq posted:at this point you start moving towards questioning the definitions of terms like 'emasculation', and whether it's possible to be emasculated without simultaneously becoming feminised. You can definitely be emasculated without being feminised. Eunuchs were usually recognised as men by the societies that practised such things. Furthermore, gender as it is generally understood currently is not really a binary switch where if you're not male, you must be female, but two different spectrums. Kegluneq posted:I think it would be interesting to consider how a female protagonist in a game like this - rape threats and torture and all - would be received as well. I know it would make me a lot more uncomfortable. I haven't played it myself, but I recall the Tomb Raider reboot dealt with some rape-threat-y things regarding Lara, but I also recall the media massively overblowing something fairly tame. Yahtzee's review also mentioned that the game constantly beats the crap out of Lara (much how like in this game, you are beaten, stabbed, strangled, break your legs multiple times, etc.), so while it's more action than horror, it can still evoke some uncomfortable feelings. I think The Last Of Us also briefly touches upon this, but I also haven't played the game so I can't say for sure.
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Nov 13, 2014 14:41
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xeose4 posted:You can definitely be emasculated without being feminised. Eunuchs were usually recognised as men by the societies that practised such things. Furthermore, gender as it is generally understood currently is not really a binary switch where if you're not male, you must be female, but two different spectrums. quote:I haven't played it myself, but I recall the Tomb Raider reboot dealt with some rape-threat-y things regarding Lara, but I also recall the media massively overblowing something fairly tame. Yahtzee's review also mentioned that the game constantly beats the crap out of Lara (much how like in this game, you are beaten, stabbed, strangled, break your legs multiple times, etc.), so while it's more action than horror, it can still evoke some uncomfortable feelings. Also both games are great and you should totally play them! Kegluneq fucked around with this message at 15:32 on Nov 13, 2014 |
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Nov 13, 2014 15:29
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Quick bonus video, just to show off a couple of things. So should I just leave the thread open for a couple of days, and then close it? Not really sure how to go about being done with an LP, haha.
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Nov 13, 2014 22:31
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I'm sure it's okay to leave it open until the LP gets archived and/or the thread falls into archives.
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Nov 13, 2014 22:50
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I can't speak for others, but I could care less about the metaphorical emasculation thing. The things that freak me out about the whole Groom thing are more literal in scope: 1) Sexual violence just generally unsettles me more than "normal" violence. 2) torture scenes tend to cause me to obsess a bit too much, putting myself a bit farther into the situation, which gets me seriously freaked out. Getting hit in the nuts hurts pretty bad, so the concept of watching my crotch get buzzsawed into oblivion just makes me  .It's also why I can't watch Saw and Hostel and such (as opposed to why I wouldn't); I just obsess about the tortures, and can't help but imagine the pain and helplessness the character is experiencing. DumbRodent posted:Quick bonus video, just to show off a couple of things. Really up to you. Some people seem to leave them open until they fall into archives, but a lot of people do what you're talking about. Speedball posted:What happened to the cook? This. And while we're at it, who the hell tackled the Groom at the last minute? And once more, DumbRodent, excellent LP.
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Nov 13, 2014 22:54
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Did you ever show off the Evil Dead easter egg? I don't recall if you had or not Great LP, thanks for doing it
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Nov 13, 2014 23:16
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Alright, thanks! Just want to make sure I'm not doing anything dumb.azren posted:Who the hell tackled the Groom at the last minute? I'm pretty sure it was the same inmate who tried to warn Waylon to keep his voice down. I'm not sure if it's meant to be Dennis himself operating under a different personality than the ones who tried to kill Waylon or just somebody else entirely. I could probably go and check myself, but I have to say, I'm about all Outlasted out! One last time, thanks to everyone in the thread. It was a really great time showing Outlast off to everyone here. I can't stress how much I appreciate the feedback! I really enjoyed the discussion regarding Outlast's presentation and the sources of its horror. It was interesting learning about the different reactions to the game's content, and gave me a new appreciation for the game even as it made me question a couple of its decisions. I still disagree that the game is misogynistic, or that it completely mishandled the sequence with Gluskin (I, for one, loved its willingness to go as hilariously, obnoxiously far as possible to make the player uncomfortable, with zero regard for political correctness or taste) but still really liked hearing everyone's thoughts. If I do another LP it will probably be something much less... controversial. Hope everyone had fun! e: Stringbean, I totally forgot to get that recorded. Thankfully there's a pretty good compilation of little references like that in Outlast over HERE. Thanks for the reminder!
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Nov 13, 2014 23:18
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The Groom tackler is very hard to see but looks a lot like the guy who warned Waylon. Dennis is one of the guys with no facial mutilations, so it's not him. It's such a short chase that a lot of people never actually get a good look at his face, but I've watched practically every Outlast/Whistleblower LP known to man (would love to play and deal with or exacerbate my fear of being chased in games but my computer is stuck in about 2008), so I've seen quite a bit of those two. Excellent LP, easily my favorite of the more serious ones I've seen, which are often made by people who don't try to play in character like that and pretty much speedrun it, really downplaying the horror and even making it boring. Soothing voice/gory horror imagery is a good combination. It's like watching a very strange movie about an NPR host sent to investigate an asylum.
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Nov 14, 2014 11:42
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love will turn you around
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I'm kinda interested in horror games, so I decided to watch this LP after all the praise. It's really well made! I haven't finished the final video yet because it's so long but I think it's safe to say that you have knack for this. It's a shame the game itself is kinda boring. It might be different playing it for yourself, but the only tense parts have been the chase sequences with the regular inmates. That's probably more due to the voice acting of the furious pursuers though. Otherwise it's way too easy to see the cat scare attempts coming (squeezing through something, peering through a window, leaping over something) and the teleporting kills all excitement from escaping the named inmates. What's the point of running if they are just going to apparate at the next scare point? Not to mention the laughable gorefest which makes the whole premise and setting just seem so goofy  Hopefully the sequel won't be so insecurely dependent on scripting and body parts. I'm not entirely sure the game deserved your quality commentary, but it certainly made the videos worth watching. Thanks for the entertainment!
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Nov 14, 2014 16:10
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davidspackage posted:This is a weird last chapter. While there's been a little foreshadowing, the "groom" section feels wholly separated from the rest of the game, just a short story about a guy who has to escape the domain of a serial killer. Yeah, that's pretty much my feelings. If we'd just gotten back to the main building and seen the church burning, completely flipping the assumption we were getting out before Miles got in on its head, that would have been a good lead-in to the coda.
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Nov 26, 2014 21:39
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Yeah, I had heard about the Groom and thought that he had more of a presence throughout the game as a main antagonist, not completely confined to the last half hour or so.
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Nov 26, 2014 21:46
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Just finished watching and wanted to add that I really enjoyed your in-character style, great job! Especially for a first LP! Would love to see any other horror games you decide to tackle. Also wanted to add that I thought the Groom segment was very well-done and intense. I focused pretty exclusively on the body horror and fear of mutilation aspect, and as a woman I found it very interesting to see a man thrown into a situation that a female character in a horror movie is always thrown into. Very interesting subversion. Kinda sad there wasn't an overt Silence of the Lambs reference. Feminine-themed mutilation, night vision...it was ripe for it! Edit: did anyone notice that the patient at the beginning who begs for your help when you're at the computer monitor is dear Mr. Gluskin? Wiggy Marie fucked around with this message at 22:12 on Nov 28, 2014 |
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Nov 28, 2014 07:38
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I'm really sorry if it's obnoxious to raise the topic from the dead like this, but I've started another Let's Play! I don't think I'll be making a thread- CJacobs is doing a pretty bang-up job of the Dead Space series and I don't want to butt in on his stuff- so I'll just leave that here for anybody who's interested.  I actually chose to LP Outlast in the first place to prepare for Dead Space!Thanks one last time for following the thread, everyone- I had a lot of fun. See you next mission!
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Dec 31, 2014 09:56
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It is absolutely ok to have concurrent LPs of the same game. There was like 3-4 Dark Souls threads going at once at a point. You're first LP was incredibly solid and would follow your Dead Space thread. Go set one up!
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Dec 31, 2014 10:15
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JossiRossi posted:It is absolutely ok to have concurrent LPs of the same game. There was like 3-4 Dark Souls threads going at once at a point. You're first LP was incredibly solid and would follow your Dead Space thread. Go set one up! Definitely agreed here. Hell, Dark Souls and Dead Space even have the same initials! It's fine.
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Dec 31, 2014 15:07
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DumbRodent posted:I'm really sorry if it's obnoxious to raise the topic from the dead like this, but I've started another Let's Play! Duuuuuude make a thread.
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Dec 31, 2014 18:14
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DumbRodent posted:I'm really sorry if it's obnoxious to raise the topic from the dead like this, but I've started another Let's Play! You're a very different style, DR. Thread away. Still, I'll pop a bookmark in case you don't! EDIT: Also, thanks for letting us know in here
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Dec 31, 2014 19:52
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Make a thread or I will forget about it and I don't want to forget about it.
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Dec 31, 2014 19:57
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Dec 31, 2014 23:44
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I'm subscribed to your channel already, but I also am nthing everyone and saying make a thread!!!
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Jan 1, 2015 00:31
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Gotta agree with the peanut gallery. I'd quite like to see Dead Space done as a SA Let's Play in your style. Not that I won't pay attention on your 'tube, either way.
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Jan 1, 2015 05:26
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