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Geop posted:Was still super confused Yeah that's never really going to stop. K7 is the type of story that neds to be thoroughly researched to be understood.
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Jun 3, 2014 17:20
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Ironicus said it best: "Nothing had anything to do with anything."
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Jun 3, 2014 17:22
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I wanted to like Killer7. I really did. The bizarre storyline and wicked visuals just called out to me. But the gameplay. Oh, the gameplay. Unique, sure, but too awkward for me to get into. I only made it in about halfway through the game before turning in the towel myself.
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Jun 3, 2014 17:28
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Has anyone considered that maybe Suda (and the people pulling off his name recognition) isn't actually that good at the game part of videogames? Every time I've seen or tried one of his games it's always 'Uh, the gameplay is weird and bad...but the visuals are cool and the story makes no sense!'
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Jun 3, 2014 17:31
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I considered that as early as killer7.
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Jun 3, 2014 17:31
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That's pretty much every game ol' Suda is involved with- either mildly questionable or at best competent gameplay but entertaining/cool visuals and ideas. You don't play 'em for the gameplay, yeah. Although No More Heroes is kinda fun in a dumb brawler-y way and has motion controls that I feel actually add a bit of something to the experience.
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Jun 3, 2014 17:41
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Meis posted:Does suda write these things? Whoever does has some pretty disturbing attitudes towards women, it seems. Going off what I've seen so far here and in previous suda games. Women seem more like accessories than protagonists in a lot of these games. But there's at least one Grasshopper game where there's a female protagonist with agency! Liberation Maiden, where the president of Japan pilots a mech to blow up aliens!
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Jun 3, 2014 17:42
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I wanna say Suda got lucky on No More Heroes being somewhat fun, if grindy, to play. Then again, I think 3D beat em ups are pretty cool when they can be flashy and a little stylish. The bosses were probably what carried No More Heroes 1 along, for sure.
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Jun 3, 2014 17:50
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Meis posted:Does suda write these things? Whoever does has some pretty disturbing attitudes towards women, it seems. Going off what I've seen so far here and in previous suda games. Suda has some issues with depictions of women in his games, but I haven't seen anything quite this bad before (outside of maybe Shinobu in NMH2). Judging by what somebody said earlier about him not wanting Gigolo mode in the game, I'd guess this is mostly the result of executive meddling.
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Jun 3, 2014 18:07
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Yeah, Suda games always treat women characters as satellites to the male main characters: the (usually flawed) relationships give insight and flavour to the man, but the woman exists solely in relationship to the man. Then again most Suda games have massive tunnel vision, exploring one character or concept and having all other things serving to flavour or influence it. Not to excuse it or anything because the focus is always some ultra-masculine character; it's more like Sudas games are focused to the point where the omissions reflect poorly on him. Casting a woman as Travis or Mondo or Dan Smith and having things bend in a similar way would alleviate a lot of concerns about Suda's images of women, I think. Then again I have less of a problem with this games portrayal of women than most, so what the hell do I know 
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Jun 3, 2014 18:16
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This game looks sooo boring... The impression from these first two videos is that it's trying way too hard to be weird and quirky and in the end it's nothing special at all.Oxxidation posted:It's worth emphasizing here: Suda51 did not have a whole lot to do with this game. He hasn't had much to do with any Grasshopper titles since NMH2 at the latest. He throws a few ideas out, lets some douche bag slap his name on the box, collects his money, and leaves. This might be why... I actually enjoyed watching LPs of killer7 and of No More Heroes, and to a lesser extent Lollipop Chainsaw's too. This is just meh (the game not the LP!).
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Jun 3, 2014 18:28
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The first several episodes feel like it's holding back, and it is admittedly to the game's detriment. I think one of the big faults is that it's not until you're halfway through the episodes that the game finally starts throwing sizable chunks of enemies your way. By the end, once the game has everything out on the table and you've got your unlocks, it's pretty fun! Unfortunately, it takes a bit to get there  I will also add that the Candy-house setting is particularly just a weird/odd choice. It gets in to B-movie grade material in future chapters, and I love it.
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Jun 3, 2014 18:31
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Does the moon get used a lot as a symbol in this game? I noticed a music-box version of Dvorak's 4th movement playing around 12 minutes in. If it is a tying motif of the whole thing, then that would be an incredibly subtle way to do it. Edit - Whoops, just listened in a bit further. Oh well, glad to see my suspicions were correct. Samovar fucked around with this message at 18:58 on Jun 3, 2014 |
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Jun 3, 2014 18:51
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Geop posted:The first several episodes feel like it's holding back, and it is admittedly to the game's detriment. I think one of the big faults is that it's not until you're halfway through the episodes that the game finally starts throwing sizable chunks of enemies your way. By the end, once the game has everything out on the table and you've got your unlocks, it's pretty fun! Unfortunately, it takes a bit to get there I actually thought the conversation between Bryan and Damon was the game's high point, at least cinematically. The scene is set well, the sound direction is excellent (long periods of dead silence except for the occasional passing car) and the tryhard-Lynch dialogue this game's so enamored with actually approaches profundity despite being just as meaningless as the rest. It was all downhill from there, with occasional upward spikes of silliness.
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Jun 3, 2014 19:27
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Samovar posted:Does the moon get used a lot as a symbol in this game? I noticed a music-box version of Dvorak's 4th movement playing around 12 minutes in. If it is a tying motif of the whole thing, then that would be an incredibly subtle way to do it. They also used a decent remix of the fourth movement for their trailer. Not linking it though; spoilers and such. 
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Jun 3, 2014 20:11
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I wanted to really like this game but I just couldn't Even ignoring That Mode, there's just so much it does wrong that it overshadows the stuff it does right. 
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Jun 3, 2014 21:21
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Night10194 posted:Has anyone considered that maybe Suda (and the people pulling off his name recognition) isn't actually that good at the game part of videogames? Every time I've seen or tried one of his games it's always 'Uh, the gameplay is weird and bad...but the visuals are cool and the story makes no sense!' I was admonished for saying this very thing about Killer 7. The person said the game was intentionally designed to be bad and boring to play. It seems like an excuse for not putting effort into it, but I assumed Suda had a more rabid fanbase than this thread is showing.
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Jun 3, 2014 21:40
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Night10194 posted:Has anyone considered that maybe Suda (and the people pulling off his name recognition) isn't actually that good at the game part of videogames?
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Jun 3, 2014 22:16
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judge reinhold posted:I was admonished for saying this very thing about Killer 7. The person said the game was intentionally designed to be bad and boring to play. It seems like an excuse for not putting effort into it, but I assumed Suda had a more rabid fanbase than this thread is showing. Killer7 was Grasshopper's high point and its design was absolutely unique enough to excuse its weird, simplistic gameplay for a lot of people. That was years ago. Everyone's gotten a little sick of this me-too grindhouse-arthouse crap since then.
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Jun 3, 2014 22:22
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Oxxidation posted:Killer7 was Grasshopper's high point and its design was absolutely unique enough to excuse its weird, simplistic gameplay for a lot of people. I agree, but that isn't the same as claiming something was intentionally bad. They spent their time in other areas and it made for a game I felt was better served being LPed than actually played.
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Jun 3, 2014 22:24
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ManlyGrunting posted:Yeah, Suda games always treat women characters as satellites to the male main characters: the (usually flawed) relationships give insight and flavour to the man, but the woman exists solely in relationship to the man. Then again most Suda games have massive tunnel vision, exploring one character or concept and having all other things serving to flavour or influence it. Not to excuse it or anything because the focus is always some ultra-masculine character; it's more like Sudas games are focused to the point where the omissions reflect poorly on him. Casting a woman as Travis or Mondo or Dan Smith and having things bend in a similar way would alleviate a lot of concerns about Suda's images of women, I think. Suda is kind of an auteur, so I'm not really surprised that his games tend to focus on something that is apparently his favourite topic: male sexuality. From Travis to Garcia to Mondo, all their stories focus on sex and murder. Travis is kind of an otaku loser, Garcia is feeling dominated and effeminated, Mondo seems to have commitment issues. His protagonists also tend to end up in situations in which they have to kill women, and it's usually depicted as more emotionally challenging to them than killing men. I guess we'll see where this game goes. Mondo definitely didn't hesitate to kill Alice. judge reinhold posted:I agree, but that isn't the same as claiming something was intentionally bad. They spent their time in other areas and it made for a game I felt was better served being LPed than actually played. Bad gameplay is bad gameplay. Suda himself said that he made the minigames in No More Heroes mind numbing on purpose. In Flower, Sun and Rain, you are even mocked for continuing to solve its boring puzzles. His games tend to antagonize the player. That raises the game's flaws above incompetence (at least on an intellectual level). It doesn't make the gameplay any less poo poo, though.
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Jun 3, 2014 22:49
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If you have to make your gameplay poo poo to get your point across then you have no business making games.
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Jun 3, 2014 22:53
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I do like how your finishing move has the option of determining what kind of powerup pops out of defeated enemies.
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Jun 3, 2014 23:04
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Flytrap posted:If you have to make your gameplay poo poo to get your point across then you have no business making games. Well, I'd argue that Suda seems to be more interested in the interactive part than in the gameplay. He'd probably just do anime if he didn't care at all. Maybe the term video game just isn't really suitable for his work. "Game" sort of implies that you're supposed to be having a good time. Most art isn't fun, though. (Not that I'm saying that Killer Is Dead is art. Killer7 and FLR are.)
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Jun 3, 2014 23:05
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And More posted:Suda is kind of an auteur, so I'm not really surprised that his games tend to focus on something that is apparently his favourite topic: male sexuality. Yeah, but his male leads also tend to wind up pretty badly damaged by the end: Travis realises his power fantasy winds up having consequences (at least by the end of NMH2, it didn't quite take the first time), Garcia is seemingly stuck in hell for the foreseeable future with no way out. We're getting ahead of things, I think, but I think there's more to his more recent games than people give him credit for.
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Jun 3, 2014 23:24
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Lance Streetman posted:Suda has some issues with depictions of women in his games, but I haven't seen anything quite this bad before (outside of maybe Shinobu in NMH2). Am I missing something here? What was wrong with shinobu? Anyway, suda51 games lost something after the first no more heroes. I dunno if it's just because he doesn't really work on them anymore beyond putting his name on the box, or if he's been pidgeonholed by his publishers as "that wacky videogame guy" (the quote earlier about how suda was forced to put gigolo mode into this game is pretty telling) but all of his most recent games have just been really lovely action games that hide behind ultraviolence and how much people loved killer7/the first no more heroes (which were games that were sort of trainwrecks to play even if you wanna excuse some of it under IT'S SUPPOSED TO BE THAT WAY, but clearly had some sort of message to them, or at least an idea.) I guess what I'm saying is that (videogame) punk IS dead. e: At the same time, I don't really agree with "suda should stop making videogames". The stuff he's done that people like (and even stuff they haven't but is still a neat idea, like Flower, Sun and Rain or Michigan: Report from hell) are stories that are only effective because they are videogames. I'd rather there be more janky not really fun suda51 story games then more david cage bullshit. darealkooky fucked around with this message at 00:11 on Jun 4, 2014 |
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Jun 4, 2014 00:03
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I'm a bit confused by what you guys are defining as a Suda 51 game? The impression that I got regarding his input and work regarding 'Killer is Dead' or 'Lollipop Chainsaw' were not as large as NMH or Killer7. I mean he also worked on Fatal Frame 4 and Blood+, but neither of those are really Suda 51 games...
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Jun 4, 2014 01:00
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Niggurath posted:I'm a bit confused by what you guys are defining as a Suda 51 game? The impression that I got regarding his input and work regarding 'Killer is Dead' or 'Lollipop Chainsaw' were not as large as NMH or Killer7. I mean he also worked on Fatal Frame 4 and Blood+, but neither of those are really Suda 51 games... I'd say if you are led to believe by the marketing that it is a Suda game, then it just might be a Suda game. He seems to have stepped back from his position as the main guy in more recent work, but he is still credited as writer for Killer is Dead, so it counts imo. It's all rather subjective. Maybe he's just been faking it ever since No More Heroes. Who knows?
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Jun 4, 2014 01:54
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SelenicMartian posted:You mean, like SWERY and Kojima? Kojima is plenty good at making games and extremely obsessive about quality. Problem is, he makes games based on his batshit insane ideas that he probably thinks are really cool (they sometimes are really cool and/or hilariously silly).
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Jun 4, 2014 04:11
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OK, so I've just watched the first two videos, and while I'm intrigued by the general creepy/zaniness, I was wondering if any of the crazy crap that's happening ever gets explained. I know that in general Sude51 is not so good on the explaining side of things, but I was still wondering if this was more a 'go along for the ride' type thing or if there would be a little more of a proper story with background.
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Jun 4, 2014 05:14
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SelenicMartian posted:You mean, like SWERY and Kojima? The MGS games can be very fun to play. For the parts where you actually get to play them.
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Jun 4, 2014 05:51
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And More posted:I'd say if you are led to believe by the marketing that it is a Suda game, then it just might be a Suda game. He seems to have stepped back from his position as the main guy in more recent work, but he is still credited as writer for Killer is Dead, so it counts imo. It doesn't really. The thing is that Suda 51 was one of four writers on this game and the studio in charge flat-out said that his contribution was more 'he kinda recommends something and we put it in' which is why he is credited as a writer. He is a contributor to the game but only in the loosest sense. It's only a Suda 51 game for marketing purposes.
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Jun 4, 2014 05:55
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PotatoManJack posted:OK, so I've just watched the first two videos, and while I'm intrigued by the general creepy/zaniness, I was wondering if any of the crazy crap that's happening ever gets explained. I know that in general Sude51 is not so good on the explaining side of things, but I was still wondering if this was more a 'go along for the ride' type thing or if there would be a little more of a proper story with background. Definitely go along for the ride, maybe a second playthrough if you want to put the story together. Most complaints I've seen are people trying to connect all the dots which doesn't work out. I guess if you want to put the story together, pay attention to everything that revolves around either Mondo, the previously mentioned David, or Moon River, the client in the next mission. Everything not involving those three is basically just weird poo poo happening for the sake of it.
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Jun 4, 2014 05:55
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This game is like if Jazzpunk wasn't a comedy.
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Jun 4, 2014 06:43
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I don't get why people poo poo on the gameplay for these games. Killer7 was overall pretty fun and unique, tho it could have been more polished, NMH was excellent, NMH2 even moreso, and I've not played Lollipop Chainsaw or Shadows of the Damned but their gameplay looks pretty fun if a bit mindless. Compared to most other games which have dull gameplay and dull aesthetics and poo poo.
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Jun 4, 2014 07:04
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And More posted:Suda is kind of an auteur, so I'm not really surprised that his games tend to focus on something that is apparently his favourite topic: male sexuality. Shadows of the Damned threw all subtlety out the window right around the time Johnson transformed into the Big Boner, I can only imagine the translation team looking at the line notes and going "are you sure this is what you want?"
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Jun 4, 2014 07:34
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So if Suda was only 1 of 4 writers on this project were the other three just going for a weird-as-hell Suda vibe? That would explain a lot.
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Jun 4, 2014 07:41
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And More posted:Bad gameplay is bad gameplay. Suda himself said that he made the minigames in No More Heroes mind numbing on purpose. In Flower, Sun and Rain, you are even mocked for continuing to solve its boring puzzles. His games tend to antagonize the player. That raises the game's flaws above incompetence (at least on an intellectual level). It doesn't make the gameplay any less poo poo, though. There is a kind of logic there, though, if you tilt your head a bit. Grasshopper's strong suit isn't their sterling gameplay, so by coming up with concepts that can thematically tie to a simple base video game, you can downplay your weaknesses. I have no idea why they don't just do movies, though. At least Suda isn't completely lost up his own rear end like some other video game figureheads with this problem that I could name. (cage)
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Jun 4, 2014 11:59
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judge reinhold posted:I was admonished for saying this very thing about Killer 7. The person said the game was intentionally designed to be bad and boring to play. It seems like an excuse for not putting effort into it, but I assumed Suda had a more rabid fanbase than this thread is showing. He did, but that was before he remade NMH eighty-seven times.
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Jun 4, 2014 12:17
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This is the only Suda game I have seen or played and I thought it was plenty fun and overflowing with style. Well except for the creepo parts but I that's kind of a given. What I'm taking from this thread is that I should get off my rear end and play Killer 7.
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Jun 5, 2014 04:17
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