|
Yeah the general public being concerned about looking crazy is something that helps all kinds of crimes and social problems avoid detection and prevention. People don't want to get involved in case they're wrong about whats going on, or in case they get hurt or embarrassed. And hey, maybe in a lot of cases that's a fair concern. But Allison used to be a literal superhero, and I guess people getting mad at you for helping someone else is something she's getting used to. Also that whole party seems kind of gross in a cultural appropriation sort of way, like rich kids in the marvel universe having a "mutie party", or any of the real world equivalents. That's a whole different can of worms though.
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2014 06:12
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 26, 2024 11:09 |
|
|
Phylodox posted:Because it isn't about them? Miles is trying to rape a girl. Who the gently caress wants to stop and have a conversation about it?!? Allison's first priority was stopping the date rape from happening and then making sure that poor girl got home safely. gently caress people who want to defend date rapists. gently caress people who want to stop and talk about it and maybe discuss how there are two sides to every story, man. Especially gently caress Violet, who would rather treat her friend like poo poo than believe some guy she takes a class with could be a lovely date raping rear end in a top hat. No, the real problem is that she's the only one doing anything about it in the first place. The kind of change Alison really wants is the kind where people stop that kind of thing from happening without her even being there. Of course all the party-goers aren't going to make a full 180 on the spot, no matter what she says. But it really is her impact on the rest of them that decides how successful she is in the long run. If one or two of them actually look out for similar things in the future, or get indignant about it themselves, then that's actual social change, even if only on the small scale. That's how you beat rape culture as opposed to just beating rapeists. And that's the bit that Alison's been failing to accomplish.
|
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2014 06:20
|
|
|
No. You don't try to effect change on a social level when there's an almost-rape victim sobbing in the corner. What, you want her to give a stern lecture? Engage in a spirited debate? Convene some sort of round table discussion? gently caress all of that. She choked out Miles and shamed everyone at the party by bringing attention to their inaction and not compromising in the face of their shittiness. If any of those assholes don't have the wherewithal to feel shame at that, then nothing she would have said would have done anything, anyways.
|
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2014 06:46
|
|
|
Phylodox posted:No. You don't try to effect change on a social level when there's an almost-rape victim sobbing in the corner. What, you want her to give a stern lecture? Engage in a spirited debate? Convene some sort of round table discussion? gently caress all of that. She choked out Miles and shamed everyone at the party by bringing attention to their inaction and not compromising in the face of their shittiness. If any of those assholes don't have the wherewithal to feel shame at that, then nothing she would have said would have done anything, anyways. Mate, she's not sobbing, just drunk. I'm just suggesting that if Alison did exactly what she did, minus the assault, she might accomplish a little something more. It's easy to say something like, "gently caress all these people if they don't immediately get it then they're not worth the breath", but if you do that, you just get the exact same problems at next week's party.
|
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2014 06:58
|
|
|
Pavlov posted:Mate, she's not sobbing, just drunk. I'm just suggesting that if Alison did exactly what she did, minus the assault, she might accomplish a little something more. It's easy to say something like, "gently caress all these people if they don't immediately get it then they're not worth the breath", but if you do that, you just get the exact same problems at next week's party. She wouldn't have accomplished anything other than being "that crazy super-bitch who accused Miles of being a rapist" instead of being "that crazy super-bitch who assaulted Miles and accused him of being a rapist". That was the whole point of that scene. Nothing she says or does is going to convince these people that someone they know and like could be a rapist. Even Violet, ostensibly Allison's friend, chose to believe Allison was mentally deranged rather than accept that some guy she knew from a class they took together could be a raping shitheel. You don't fight rape culture by being sensitive and understanding with the people who perpetrate it; they'll just turn around and say you're overreacting or misunderstanding or a violent sociopath.
|
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2014 07:06
|
|
|
Phylodox posted:That was the whole point of that scene. Nothing she says or does is going to convince these people that someone they know and like could be a rapist. Even Violet, ostensibly Allison's friend, chose to believe Allison was mentally deranged rather than accept that some guy she knew from a class they took together could be a raping shitheel. And I agree with this to a point. At least for Violet and the vocal minority, they doesn't want to see what is going on in favor of thinking that Allison is off her rocker. Their reasons are not good ones; "He's my friend he would never do that", "You're just being paranoid", "Why would you do that to him". But what makes this situation really hosed up is that odds are we've all seen it play out in some shape or form and some of us may have been people in the crowd; either blind to what is going on or willfully ignorant to what is happening right in front of us. Speaking of which, do you think that every person noticed that guy walking by? No, Some are looking at the skyline and some are chatting up one person or another and mingling. Most of them probably didn't see what was happening until Allison hoisted that guy up by his neck and started shouting. So they weren't aware of what he was doing (or what he was going to do). Pavlov is right, the moment Allison acted the way she did the situation stopped being about this potential rapist, it became about her bullying someone. Allison may be getting things done but that doesn't mean that she isn't accountable for her own actions. Right now there is an alarming pattern of her inappropriate actions garnering no actual backlash save a verbal slap on the wrist and most of the other times she get's to take on her Holier-than-thou attitude to whoever she is talking too. Kill a guy and threaten a parking lot full of people. It doesn't really count because he was a murderer and they were bigots. Heck, she didn't even have to go to trial for something that most other agents of the law would be held accountable for. And that's the thing about Allison, she's not a cop, she's an adult with too much power and not enough wisdom to use it responsibly. That's what makes her so interesting as a character. But obviously nobody gave her the "with great power comes great responsibility" speech because no matter how you try and spin it her reaction to this situation is overboard. She was in control the moment she saw that guy walk by and everyone in this thread should know that.
|
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2014 09:40
|
|
|
I think it's fair to say both of the following: 1. From a strategic point of view, Alison could have handled that better. She left the people at the party with a bunch of excuses they can make about her behavior and assaulted an innocent* civilian. She's diminishing her personal influence while simultaneously not addressing the global problem. Patrick would have solved this problem differently. 2. Alison was not thinking in a strategic way. She was thinking in a "NO WAY AM I GOING TO LET THIS GIRL GET DATERAPED WHEN I CAN STOP IT" and a "gently caress THIS GIGANTIC RAPING rear end in a top hat" way. Her actions were not to make a global point, but to save this one person, because that's often how superheroes behave. From this point of view, what she did was laudable, and it's probably a lot closer to the way most of us would behave in that situation if we had super-strength (and were not afraid to act). * In a purely legal sense. The courts cannot convict you of "I'm 99% sure he was going to try to rape that girl". The worst part of this kind of poo poo in real life is that people like Miles might genuinely not even believe he's a rapist; some people have the delusion that if the girl is not actually fighting back and hitting you, it can't be rape.
|
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2014 12:46
|
|
|
Alright, time for a show of hands. How many of you have: A) Had sex with a complete stranger while inebriated? B) Had sex with a complete stranger who was inebriated? C) Encountered a complete stranger escorting another complete stranger who was inebriated? D) If C, made sure said escorting wasn't where the sober stranger wasn't about to have sex with the inebriated stranger? For the record, I've never knowingly done any of these. It's really easy not to notice, though. I also don't typically go to parties where people get drunk, and didn't in college (and was on a dry campus).
|
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2014 15:49
|
|
|
idonotlikepeas posted:2. Alison was not thinking in a strategic way. She was thinking in a "NO WAY AM I GOING TO LET THIS GIRL GET DATERAPED WHEN I CAN STOP IT" and a "gently caress THIS GIGANTIC RAPING rear end in a top hat" way. Her actions were not to make a global point, but to save this one person, because that's often how superheroes behave. From this point of view, what she did was laudable, and it's probably a lot closer to the way most of us would behave in that situation if we had super-strength (and were not afraid to act). And that's another important aspect to the situation, and one where her friend... well may not be right, but at least is hitting closer to home than can be comfortable. The entire reason Alison stopped being Mega-Girl was because she wasn't fixing anything. She stopped some supervillians, but did so in a very casualty-rich way, and didn't actually do any meaningful good. She said it herself, when fighting Cleaver. That's what she's used to doing, and it feels good, even if it's almost meaningless in the end. Her first instinct was to jump back into that role. To be the hero, save the girl, fix the immediate problem with the immediate solution. I would wager that she probably didn't even really consciously assault the dude, she just instinctively choke-grabbed him. And that's where poo poo went off the rails. Because she immediately dropped back into the "Superhero vs. Supervillain" role she's so used to, and she can't really see that. You can blame the partygoers all you want for turning a blind eye to Miles, but they still have their reasons for doing so. He's a friend, it's a regular thing, she's "asking for it", they know each other, etc. There's a billion excuses they use to not see him as a bad guy. And the most important thing, as a reader, we don't know for a fact that he is a bad guy. He's purposefully written as an arrogant, entitled douche, and the kind of person we would easily believe as being a rapist, but we don't know poo poo for fact. All this adds up to a situation where Alison sees it as black and white, good vs. evil, and she's surrounded by people who disagree. Her friend is 100% correct in that she's instantly reverting back to the kind of life she led as a superhero, and is being recklessly dangerous with her use of force. Alison is also right, in that her friend is ignoring a real situation with a real solution, in favor of not having to think too hard about the people she chooses to surround herself with. The whole thing is one giant shade of grey, with nobody truly 100% correct.
|
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2014 19:21
|
|
|
Captain Bravo posted:And the most important thing, as a reader, we don't know for a fact that he is a bad guy.
|
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2014 19:56
|
|
|
Captain Bravo posted:And that's another important aspect to the situation, and one where her friend... well may not be right, but at least is hitting closer to home than can be comfortable. The entire reason Alison stopped being Mega-Girl was because she wasn't fixing anything. She stopped some supervillians, but did so in a very casualty-rich way, and didn't actually do any meaningful good. She said it herself, when fighting Cleaver. That's what she's used to doing, and it feels good, even if it's almost meaningless in the end. Except that guy who was taking home a drunk girl whose name he didn't know and then he was lying about his relationship with her to people, he's totes legit.
|
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2014 21:33
|
|
|
Mr.Pibbleton posted:Except that guy who was taking home a drunk girl whose name he didn't know and then he was lying about his relationship with her to people, he's totes legit. Seriously, I'm kind of taken aback at the lengths to which people are going to inject "shades of grey" into this. Guy's a lovely rapist. He got off with a sore throat. He's so loving lucky.
|
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2014 21:37
|
|
|
Captain Bravo posted:You can blame the partygoers all you want for turning a blind eye to Miles, but they still have their reasons for doing so. He's a friend, it's a regular thing, she's "asking for it", they know each other, etc. There's a billion excuses they use to not see him as a bad guy. And the most important thing, as a reader, we don't know for a fact that he is a bad guy. He's purposefully written as an arrogant, entitled douche, and the kind of person we would easily believe as being a rapist, but we don't know poo poo for fact. All this adds up to a situation where Alison sees it as black and white, good vs. evil, and she's surrounded by people who disagree. Her friend is 100% correct in that she's instantly reverting back to the kind of life she led as a superhero, and is being recklessly dangerous with her use of force. Alison is also right, in that her friend is ignoring a real situation with a real solution, in favor of not having to think too hard about the people she chooses to surround herself with. The whole thing is one giant shade of grey, with nobody truly 100% correct. As much as I'd like the writers to be creating a more complex situation that doesn't seem to be the case with this party-goer. We have reason to doubt the guilt of at least one of the 4 boys who were shanked in that convenience store because the events surrounding Kaylee's rape are still not known.  And said drunk girl has just admitted that she was waiting for her friends who didn't show up so it's obvious that she probably only knows Brought To You By fucked around with this message at 22:18 on Jun 18, 2014 |
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2014 21:54
|
|
|
Miles, not Mitch. And Allison is someone who's been dealing with super-powers since she hit puberty. She's had to be aware for every moment of every single interaction with every single non-super-powered person she's ever been in contact with exactly how easily she could maim or even kill them with something as simple as an involuntary reaction. They showed that with Feral. She wasn't enraged or freaking out when she picked Miles up by the throat, she was completely in control. She, more than anyone, probably knows exactly how fragile people are, and exactly how much pressure it would take to do permanent damage. And why, by God, does this situation need to be "more complex"? We don't need more media perpetrating the myth that there's more than one side to rape. We pretty much have an entire culture dedicated to perpetrating that idea.
|
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2014 22:14
|
|
|
I guess I'll be honest, when I first saw Miles, I didn't notice anything off about him either. I thought Alison was storming off to respond to that one text. I mean, his face kind of looks less like a rapist's, and more like the author got lazy with his anatomy. It's kind of like it's just... melting off to the side there. If you cover up the face, they pretty much look like a normal drunk couple.
|
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2014 22:31
|
|
|
Pavlov posted:I guess I'll be honest, when I first saw Miles, I didn't notice anything off about him either. I thought Alison was storming off to respond to that one text. I mean, his face kind of looks less like a rapist's, and more like the author got lazy with his anatomy. It's kind of like it's just... melting off to the side there. If you cover up the face, they pretty much look like a normal drunk couple.
|
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2014 22:37
|
|
|
Phylodox posted:Miles, not Mitch. Ask yourself this question, if Feral had perished in that fire would Allison have stopped before she hurt more people? quote:And why, by God, does this situation need to be "more complex"? We don't need more media perpetrating the myth that there's more than one side to rape. We pretty much have an entire culture dedicated to perpetrating that idea. If you are talking about the roof-top scene, it's pretty cut and dry. The other scene could set up a better shade of gray because we the viewer aren't aware of what actually happened yet. Were all four of those guys guilty of raping Kaylee or did three of them do it and the last kid just had terrible choice in friends. If it's possible for Violet and some of the party-goers to have a friend like Miles and be blind to how he might act at a party, it's equally likely that some people might still associate with actual rapists even after a trial for whatever reason they might have. I think it would be necessary for a story centered around superheroes and vigilante justice to address that there are limits to what is acceptable in handling a real world situation. If you knew that someone with enough strength to level building could accost you for whatever crime you might be guilty of in any way they saw fit would you be comfortable with that? What if you were accused of a crime you didn't commit and someone decided to take action into their own hands? That is the situation I am in favor of. Miles doesn't apply to that. I'm not defending rapists here or whatever definition of rape culture you might be using. But being perfectly honest, I'm tired of seeing every rape scenario in fiction demonize men and victimize women. I know for a fact that rape statistics are closer to 50/50 but every time I see it brought up in the news or popular fiction it's polarized to keep one group of people colored as perpetual aggressors. Is it too much to ask that every once in a while there is a situation where it isn't what it looks like?
|
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2014 22:39
|
|
|
Brought To You By posted:I'm not defending rapists here or whatever definition of rape culture you might be using. But being perfectly honest, I'm tired of seeing every rape scenario in fiction demonize men and victimize women. I know for a fact that rape statistics are closer to 50/50 but every time I see it brought up in the news or popular fiction it's polarized to keep one group of people colored as perpetual aggressors. Is it too much to ask that every once in a while there is a situation where it isn't what it looks like? Hey, Violet. Seriously though, people reading this particular part of the thread should check out RAINN's sexual assault statistics if you actually think things are split evenly between women and men. witchcore ricepunk fucked around with this message at 22:57 on Jun 18, 2014 |
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2014 22:54
|
|
|
Brought To You By posted:There are some moments when I am angry of frustrated when I use more force than necessary when handling objects. Allison is not exempt from that phenomenon. And she was very much enraged when at the hospital, her feet left cracks in the ground where she stepped, she took an officers gun and fired off several shots into her own mouth, she leveled a car and light pole in an attempt to start hurting people and the reason she stopped was because the same person she came to see told her too as well as her boyfriend. That was an entirely different situation. Allison thought that someone she cared about had just been murdered. Allison didn't lose control with Miles and use more force than she intended to. She used exactly as much force as she meant to. If you, like some people here, are arguing that the force she used was excessive...then we just disagree on a fundamental level. quote:If you are talking about the roof-top scene, it's pretty cut and dry. The other scene could set up a better shade of gray because we the viewer aren't aware of what actually happened yet. Were all four of those guys guilty of raping Kaylee or did three of them do it and the last kid just had terrible choice in friends. If it's possible for Violet and some of the party-goers to have a friend like Miles and be blind to how he might act at a party, it's equally likely that some people might still associate with actual rapists even after a trial for whatever reason they might have. I don't think the scenes with the shadowy figure and Allison choking out Miles are meant to reinforce a common idea (that of super-powered beings having free reign to exact whatever justice they see fit), but are there to contrast each other. The shadowy figure murdered those four guys, not to prevent a crime from happening, but to avenge one that had already happened. It circumvented due process and carried out an execution. Allison, on the other hand, saw a crime in progress and used her powers to stop it. Once the crime had been prevented, she concerned herself with the well-being of the victim. The way I interpret it is that what the shadowy figure did was wrong, it was an example of super-powers being abused, while what Allison did was closer to the ideal, super-powers being used in the aid of another. Obviously how the story plays out from here will either validate or invalidate my view on it, but that's how I'm reading it so far. quote:I'm not defending rapists here or whatever definition of rape culture you might be using. But being perfectly honest, I'm tired of seeing every rape scenario in fiction demonize men and victimize women. I know for a fact that rape statistics are closer to 50/50 but every time I see it brought up in the news or popular fiction it's polarized to keep one group of people colored as perpetual aggressors. Is it too much to ask that every once in a while there is a situation where it isn't what it looks like? Seriously? We live in a world where a sports team can rape a girl and almost get off because the community didn't want to ruin their collegiate prospects. We don't need to reinforce horrible, harmful ideas like false rape accusations. They're already prevalent enough as it is. And I'm fairly certain the statistics only shake out to 50/50 if you include prison rape, which is horrible, but is a whole other kettle of fish from what we're talking about.
|
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2014 22:54
|
|
|
Phylodox posted:And I'm fairly certain the statistics only shake out to 50/50 if you include prison rape They do indeed. I don't see much point about speculating on Miles' intents. It's quite clear that Allison's reading of the situation was entirely accurate and her reaction was justified. Trying to find flaws in her attitude or interpretation of the events seems to be wanting to read this chapter into an analysis of her character flaws, which do not seem to be the intent of this chapter to me. I'd rather wager we're getting a contrast set up between her and the invisible stalker from earlier.
|
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2014 23:33
|
|
|
Pavlov posted:I guess I'll be honest, when I first saw Miles, I didn't notice anything off about him either. I thought Alison was storming off to respond to that one text. I mean, his face kind of looks less like a rapist's, and more like the author got lazy with his anatomy. It's kind of like it's just... melting off to the side there. If you cover up the face, they pretty much look like a normal drunk couple. I'm fairly sure this was deliberate. Despite the fact that Miles and his skeevy smile and the girl take up about a third of the panel, the focus is on Clevin and the secondary focus is the text message. Even the hover-text joke is about the text message and Clevin. I think surprising you with the next page is part of the point. Drunk people in the background! Totally normal party stuff! Except, wait, not quite. Phylodox posted:And why, by God, does this situation need to be "more complex"? We don't need more media perpetrating the myth that there's more than one side to rape. We pretty much have an entire culture dedicated to perpetrating that idea. I don't think the question of whether the dude was up to something is actually up for debate. The writer removed any ambiguity present there when he had the guy lie about whether the girl was okay and that they were on a date when he didn't know her name. The complexity in the situation is purely about what the best way was for Alison to deal with it. Brought To You By posted:I'm not defending rapists here or whatever definition of rape culture you might be using. But being perfectly honest, I'm tired of seeing every rape scenario in fiction demonize men and victimize women. I know for a fact that rape statistics are closer to 50/50 but every time I see it brought up in the news or popular fiction it's polarized to keep one group of people colored as perpetual aggressors. Is it too much to ask that every once in a while there is a situation where it isn't what it looks like? Well, they're closer to 50/50 insofar as it isn't exactly 0% of men being raped, but the vast majority of rapes are indeed male on female. Rape of males definitely does happen, but it's substantially less likely in the particular context shown in the comic. (And, sadly, the vast majority of men who are raped are ALSO raped by men.) In terms of ambiguity, we actually might have a more ambiguous situation with Jake from Kayleigh's rape - the writer and artist went out of their way to have him behave differently than the other three murdered frat boys and actually give him a name. We'll see what they're going to do with that, though. As for demonizing men, I think it's significant that Violet is the one who's mostly up in Alison's grill here. Her tolerance of Miles' behavior is part of the problem too. And the comic has already had a number of male characters who are perfectly okay and not rapists or aggressors in any way; it's not like we're falling into some weird reverse-Bechdel situation here.
|
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2014 23:40
|
|
|
Holy poo poo, you guys are seriously going to fall back on the "Oh, so you're defending rapists!?" scarecrow? Nobody here is defending rapists, or saying that complacency is not an issue. You'll notice, in fact, that I point out the partygoers are being enablers by choosing not to see the potential problem happening.quote:Alison is also right, in that her friend is ignoring a real situation with a real solution, in favor of not having to think too hard about the people she chooses to surround herself with. But do you guys seriously believe that if it seems likely someone is a criminal, any degree of force is then ok to use against them? That's literally the exact point this chapter is making, by paralleling Alison's actions with the vigilante from the chapter start. Alison, and a surprising number of people posting in this thread, seem to believe that once someone gets placed in the "bad guy" category, whether or not they are 100% certain to belong in that catagory, an overwhelming amount of force is then justified against them. That line of thinking is exactly what leads to the vigilante from the start of the chapter. For christ's sake, there is a middle ground between "I think this guy intends to rape this woman!" and "I will pick him up by the throat, that is a perfectly normal course of action here." It's blatantly obvious Alison has reverted to "Pissed off righteousness" mode, the author makes this pretty clear with the tiny, beady eyes. Seriously, go look back through the archives, whenever she's pissed off and certain she's in the right, the author draws her with the tiny eyes. She disregarded the sheer amount of strength she has over an opponent, because she was certain the dude was a "bad guy". Whether he is or isn't is not the point. Everyone arguing whether or not he's a rapist is missing the point so hard, I'm surprised you can even tell there is one. The point is that Alison doesn't know that for certain, yet she's acting like she does. She would be 100% in the right to assume there's the possibility, or even probability, that he's going to rape her, and move to get the girl to safety. Even calling him out to point out his behavior as not ok, still perfectly ok. Shooting straight to violence in a situation she can't possibly be certain about is Alison's MO, and that struggle is one of the underlying themes of the comic. Seriously, the talk with Cleaver spells it all out pretty clearly. She instinctively resorts to violence, because it's all she's known, and more importantly because it's satisfying. She obviously has issues, and acknowledges those herself to Cleaver. Just because her friend is in the wrong about Miles doesn't mean her friend doesn't also have a point about Alison. Two different people can be wrong and right about different things at the same time. That's where "shades of grey" comes into it. To reiterate: Whether or not the dude was going to rape the girl is not the point of the story. Alison was 100% in the right to take action. Alison was definitely not in the right to go as far as she did. Her friend is wrong to skim over the actions of Miles for personal reasons. Her friend is right to call Alison out on abusing her superpowers, something Alison herself has acknowledged in the past. Rape is being used as a plot device here, nothing more, nothing less. The real story is what's going on with Alison, the protagonist of the comic.
|
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2014 23:51
|
|
|
Captain Bravo posted:You can blame the partygoers all you want for turning a blind eye to Miles, but they still have their reasons for doing so. He's a friend, it's a regular thing, she's "asking for it", they know each other, etc. There's a billion excuses they use to not see him as a bad guy. And the most important thing, as a reader, we don't know for a fact that he is a bad guy. Possible does not mean plausible. It is implausible in light of his reactions, and actions, that he was not going to "date" (if we can call it that) rape that girl.
|
|
#
?
Jun 19, 2014 00:11
|
|
|
I foresee a lot of political debates happening in this thread.
|
|
#
?
Jun 19, 2014 01:59
|
|
|
Tender Child Loins posted:Hey, Violet. There is a stark difference between Violet not wanting to see one of her friends as a rapist, and me stating that I'm tired of every rape story always having to be male on female. If you've been paying attention you'll notice I'm not excusing or justifying Mile's actions. I'm glad Allison stopped him, I also think she went too far. Phylodox posted:That was an entirely different situation. Allison thought that someone she cared about had just been murdered. Allison didn't lose control with Miles and use more force than she intended to. She used exactly as much force as she meant to. If you, like some people here, are arguing that the force she used was excessive...then we just disagree on a fundamental level. We will have to agree to disagree then. I see plenty wrong with someone who clearly outclasses another person physically basically manhandling them in a dangerous way. The flamethrower wielding murderer may have been a more direct threat and emotions were high so Allison's actions can be justified up until she enters the parking lot and yes, loses control of her actions. Allison has a pattern of losing her cool pretty easily and like Captain Bravo stated it's a trait Allison is aware of but isn't taking steps to handling. Look back at this page when she lifts Miles up. You can see the point where she starts to lose control over herself and defaults to acting like a thug. I'll also add that I find it understandable that she does, it's human and natural to get frustrated and angry especially with people like Miles. But that doesn't mean that her other actions are defensible given the myriad of better alternatives that were available to her. quote:I don't think the scenes with the shadowy figure and Allison choking out Miles are meant to reinforce a common idea (that of super-powered beings having free reign to exact whatever justice they see fit), but are there to contrast each other. The shadowy figure murdered those four guys, not to prevent a crime from happening, but to avenge one that had already happened. It circumvented due process and carried out an execution. Allison, on the other hand, saw a crime in progress and used her powers to stop it. Once the crime had been prevented, she concerned herself with the well-being of the victim. The way I interpret it is that what the shadowy figure did was wrong, it was an example of super-powers being abused, while what Allison did was closer to the ideal, super-powers being used in the aid of another. Obviously how the story plays out from here will either validate or invalidate my view on it, but that's how I'm reading it so far. I think the authors are setting up a direct comparison because the actions that lead one person to use force and violence to stop a situation that didn't necessarily call for it are the same that will cause people to use violence when it can only make things worse. Allison circumvents due process a number of times. She doesn't subdue or arrest that flamethrower guy at the hospital and he was guilty of three counts of murder (the surgeon and his staff) and one count of attempted murder(Feral). Where is justice for the families and friends of those hospital staff? They will get no answers or resolution as to why their loved ones had to die aside from he was targeting someone else. That killer could have been used to figure out who hired him (Maybe with Patrick's unique powers) and maybe arrest them as well. Think about our current killer, if the police ever trace that assassin back to Kaylee she's going to jail and so if her family. They all willingly hired a contract killer, in the U.S that means they can also be tried for murder. She was a victim but now she and her family have become the criminals and are no worse than the boys who raped her; potentially worse depending on how you view rape vs murder. quote:Seriously? We live in a world where a sports team can rape a girl and almost get off because the community didn't want to ruin their collegiate prospects. We don't need to reinforce horrible, harmful ideas like false rape accusations. They're already prevalent enough as it is. And I'm fairly certain the statistics only shake out to 50/50 if you include prison rape, which is horrible, but is a whole other kettle of fish from what we're talking about. As for the Steubenville trial, what happened there looks like a direct inspiration for this stories scenario and what happened there wasn't any more right than Kaylee's situation. Brought To You By fucked around with this message at 04:29 on Jun 19, 2014 |
|
#
?
Jun 19, 2014 04:26
|
|
|
I really, really like Strong Female Protagonist and I wish one of the Big Two's little side-imprints would say "Hey. Let's publish this mo'fucker with the might of a comic company behind it. Getchu some inkers an' poo poo." And make all of the people on this comic lots of money because SFP is cool.
|
|
#
?
Jun 19, 2014 04:47
|
|
|
Brought To You By posted:The flip side of this is that men are almost universally always guilty until proven innocent when it comes to sexual assault and rape cases. You can't deny that the media and fiction demonize males as the eternal rapist and it's sexist. False rape accusations are not as uncommon as you might think, and there is little to no legal action taken to address the people who do make them until they establish a pattern of being a repeat offender. Lives have been ruined because some people lie and it shows some of the flaws in our legal system when these cases are not properly investigated and victims testimonies are valued more than other forms of evidence. Works cited: 1. reddit.com/r/mra
|
|
#
?
Jun 19, 2014 04:53
|
|
|
This whole thread is becoming one big [citation needed]. If you're going to claim e.g.Brought To You posted:False rape accusations are not as uncommon as you might think Elysiume fucked around with this message at 05:01 on Jun 19, 2014 |
|
#
?
Jun 19, 2014 04:59
|
|
|
Brought To You By posted:
That's not even a little bit true. Only about 20% of reported rapes lead to prosecution, and only about half of those prosecutions lead to conviction. And that's only looking at the minority of cases that even get reported in the first place! What media HAS done is create this bullshit mythology that REAL rapists are obvious monsters that you can see coming a mile away, and that Just Regular Guys are always in deadly peril of having their lives ruined by false rape charges. And that's exactly what we're seeing here: Miles is a chill dude so no one wants to get him in trouble. Hell, the guy probably doesn't even think what he's about to do is rape; he's just picking up a chick at a party, that's what happens at parties. I think the greater point of the story here is that, yeah, Alison can rescue the girl. She can even put the fear of god into that rear end in a top hat so he never acts lovely to a woman again, maybe. But there's no level of metahuman power that will make those other people at the party open their eyes to what's happening. The overall problem of rape culture here can't be punched or strangled.
|
|
#
?
Jun 19, 2014 05:01
|
|
|
Brought To You By posted:The flip side of this is that men are almost universally always guilty until proven innocent when it comes to sexual assault and rape cases. You can't deny that the media and fiction demonize males as the eternal rapist and it's sexist. False rape accusations are not as uncommon as you might think, and there is little to no legal action taken to address the people who do make them until they establish a pattern of being a repeat offender. Lives have been ruined because some people lie and it shows some of the flaws in our legal system when these cases are not properly investigated and victims testimonies are valued more than other forms of evidence. The highest estimates I've seen of false rape accusations are around 10%. Most are more in the 5-6% range, with lows around 2%. Given the social stigma that generally attaches to rape victims in most areas (including most parts of the U.S.), it's not too surprising that the rates are pretty low. You have to have some serious motivation to claim that you were raped, and the most likely motivation is that you actually were. Obviously we shouldn't be judging people in the real world guilty without a trial. But the fear of not being believed is one of the main reasons that a lot of rapes go unreported. We're not in a situation where the men are always judged guilty before the fact; on the contrary, in most cases heavy suspicion is almost always levelled at the woman reporting the assault. If anything, we need to spend more time as a culture encouraging women to report with the idea that they WILL be believed, although their stories will also be checked. I understand it can be frustrating to have your gender/ethnicity/class/age range/etc. singled out as the only perpetrators of a particular type of crime. But one thing we have to understand, as men, is that almost all rapes are in fact committed by men. (And I say this despite the fact that I have a friend who WAS sexually assaulted by a woman - pieces of anecdotal evidence aren't statistics.) It is essentially impossible to have a woman rape a man in a story without that BECOMING the entire story, just because of how rare it is. And that isn't really the story the SFP team is working on right now.
|
|
#
?
Jun 19, 2014 05:06
|
|
|
Brought To You By posted:
Hahahaha loving what? Please, provide some statistical evidence for this MRA bullshit, because uh 
|
|
#
?
Jun 19, 2014 05:08
|
|
|
Opposing Farce posted:Works cited: Works Cited: 1. Real life 2. Real Life 3. Real Life 4. Real Life 5. Real Life Not cited here: Real Life Look I get it, I'm clearly not the most popular girl at prom here saying some of the things that I am. But please don't pretend that this topic as so one dimensional that there cannot be other factors at play. Even if it's a statistical minority False rape accusation do happen and if anything, their frequency of being reported in increasing meaning that something else is going on with this whole phenomenon. Edit: Are we seriously going to start with the MRA comparisons? idonotlikepeas posted:The highest estimates I've seen of false rape accusations are around 10%. Most are more in the 5-6% range, with lows around 2%. Given the social stigma that generally attaches to rape victims in most areas (including most parts of the U.S.), it's not too surprising that the rates are pretty low. You have to have some serious motivation to claim that you were raped, and the most likely motivation is that you actually were. quote:Obviously we shouldn't be judging people in the real world guilty without a trial. But the fear of not being believed is one of the main reasons that a lot of rapes go unreported. We're not in a situation where the men are always judged guilty before the fact; on the contrary, in most cases heavy suspicion is almost always levelled at the woman reporting the assault. If anything, we need to spend more time as a culture encouraging women to report with the idea that they WILL be believed, although their stories will also be checked. Elysiume posted:Five incidents isn't a significant data point. Nobody is saying that false rape accusations don't happen. Brought To You By fucked around with this message at 05:21 on Jun 19, 2014 |
|
#
?
Jun 19, 2014 05:09
|
|
|
Brought To You By posted:Works Cited:
|
|
#
?
Jun 19, 2014 05:10
|
|
|
Opposing Farce posted:Works cited:
|
|
#
?
Jun 19, 2014 05:14
|
|
|
Brought To You By posted:I'm not saying they are significant, I want people to realize that this does happen and it has consequences on multiple lives. I understand that this is a rare occurrence, but when it happens it needs to be addressed and not trivialized. OK. I think we can all agree on that. People are going to be lovely to each other, and we shouldn't support that as a culture no matter who they are or what type of shittiness it was. But you're basically arguing with nobody here; nobody has said "all accusations of rape are always 100% true". When people are saying that Miles is a rapey rapehead, he's not standing in for every male in the world; in fact, the whole last couple of pages have been about how good or relatively good people enable the actions of the minority of bad people through inaction. Where this started was you complaining that SFP was doing another "man tries to rape woman" storyline when you'd like something more ambiguous or even the reverse. The point many of us have been trying to make is that this is like complaining about them doing a school shooting storyline instead of a school bombing storyline. School bombings do happen, and are absolutely terrible when they do! But school shootings are a lot more common, so it's more likely a story that wants to reach a point about school violence is going to be about a shooting unless the people telling the story want to make a particular point about bombing. Now, if that story isn't to your taste, well, that's fine. But there's nothing objectively wrong with it.
|
|
#
?
Jun 19, 2014 05:53
|
|
|
Brought To You By posted:I'm not saying they are significant, I want people to realize that this does happen and it has consequences on multiple lives. I understand that this is a rare occurrence, but when it happens it needs to be addressed and not trivialized. So go make a thread about it? It's really not relevant to this comic in any way.
|
|
#
?
Jun 19, 2014 06:05
|
|
|
Hold on there's a thread about a cool comic about superman being self-aware enough to acknowledge social issues hold on its a chapter about rape better swoop in and #notallmen it up. Jeeeeeez. rotinaj posted:I really, really like Strong Female Protagonist and I wish one of the Big Two's little side-imprints would say "Hey. Let's publish this mo'fucker with the might of a comic company behind it. Getchu some inkers an' poo poo." It is a neat comic and I hope it is very successful, but I am also 10000% ok with DC and Marvel (and anything related) never touching it.
|
|
#
?
Jun 19, 2014 06:08
|
|
|
idonotlikepeas posted:OK. I think we can all agree on that. People are going to be lovely to each other, and we shouldn't support that as a culture no matter who they are or what type of shittiness it was. But you're basically arguing with nobody here; nobody has said "all accusations of rape are always 100% true". When people are saying that Miles is a rapey rapehead, he's not standing in for every male in the world; in fact, the whole last couple of pages have been about how good or relatively good people enable the actions of the minority of bad people through inaction. quote:Where this started was you complaining that SFP was doing another "man tries to rape woman" storyline when you'd like something more ambiguous or even the reverse. The point many of us have been trying to make is that this is like complaining about them doing a school shooting storyline instead of a school bombing storyline. School bombings do happen, and are absolutely terrible when they do! But school shootings are a lot more common, so it's more likely a story that wants to reach a point about school violence is going to be about a shooting unless the people telling the story want to make a particular point about bombing. quote:Now, if that story isn't to your taste, well, that's fine. But there's nothing objectively wrong with it. Brought To You By fucked around with this message at 06:11 on Jun 19, 2014 |
|
#
?
Jun 19, 2014 06:08
|
|
|
Meowjesty posted:It is a neat comic and I hope it is very successful, but I am also 10000% ok with DC and Marvel (and anything related) never touching it. Luckily, there's basically a zero percent chance they'd ever pick up a comic like this 
|
|
#
?
Jun 19, 2014 06:29
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 26, 2024 11:09 |
|
|
ANYWAY I am super interested in seeing Paladin again! I wonder what role she'll be playing in this chapter? From her name, she could easily be the one who counsels Allison about the very issues people have brought up in this thread.
|
|
#
?
Jun 19, 2014 06:31
|
|