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Carrasco posted:So on this page, Patrick says he doesn't "really identify as a person". That hasn't been revisited since, but on the second page of this chapter IVS says "I am not a who". Wonder if that's narratively significant as a connection between them, or if it's just a broader social trend among the biodynamic. I think the distinction here would be IVS asking to be thought of or approached as a concept of vengeance rather than a person being asked to enact it, like in V for Vendetta, the mask is the face that matters. Patrick isn't defining himself as inhuman in the sense of wishing to be perceived as some kind of ideal, but simply because the nature of his power denies him an understanding of the basic human condition in anything other than the academic sense.
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Jul 6, 2014 22:19
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also being bombarded by the thought process of everyone around you might inhibit a sense of individuality. he honestly might not be able to grasp where he ends and other people begin
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Jul 7, 2014 08:50
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A big flaming stink posted:also being bombarded by the thought process of everyone around you might inhibit a sense of individuality. That might have something to do with why he seems so uncomfortable with personal sexuality.
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Jul 7, 2014 13:05
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A big flaming stink posted:also being bombarded by the thought process of everyone around you might inhibit a sense of individuality. "I instinctively read everyone's minds and have for many years, but I act like a total weirdo and don't notice when my behavior alienates people" Patrick is a fresh take on the telepath gimmick but he really doesn't make sense unless he literally has Asperger's syndrome.
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Jul 7, 2014 20:38
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Flesh Forge posted:Patrick is a fresh take on the telepath gimmick but he really doesn't make sense unless he literally has Asperger's syndrome. Asperger's telepathy is actually a pretty cool idea.
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Jul 7, 2014 21:02
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I think being social awkard and a imbecile at social situations probably is the only way he would act. He's been reading peoples minds for years, every time he encounters someone he sees what their thinking. So probably being exposed to everyone's inner most thoughs has him kind of hosed up. It actually makes sense that he'd actually just be mentally unstable.
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Jul 7, 2014 21:18
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Yeah when he encounters someone and they immediately go "wow Patrick is a loving weirdo!" Human beings instinctively cooperate and socialize, that's our big thing. If anything Patrick should be the most debonair motherfucker in the world. e: although yeah Asperger's would totally justify that.
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Jul 7, 2014 21:20
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Flesh Forge posted:Yeah when he encounters someone and they immediately go "wow Patrick is a loving weirdo!" Human beings instinctively cooperate and socialize, that's our big thing. If anything Patrick should be the most debonair motherfucker in the world. well it's a question of motivation. when he wants people to do something for him, or he needs something that they have, he seems to have a very easy time getting it from them because he's psychic etc. does he feel the need to be socially amicable in a general sense? he's pretty much incapable of feeling lonely, it could easily be the case that he just doesn't feel the need to be accepted by the people around him what i'm saying is that he's pretty much the most inhuman character in this comic
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Jul 7, 2014 21:28
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Flesh Forge posted:"I instinctively read everyone's minds and have for many years, but I act like a total weirdo and don't notice when my behavior alienates people" I just got caught up on this comic, and I think it's just a symptom of SFP's biggest problem, which is that it approaches every issue like a brick approaches aerodynamics. Everyone's problems are communicated in the form of really blatant melodrama, as exposition, or both. Patrick acts like an autistic weirdo because the author wants to communicate that his telepathy makes him relate oddly to other people, but can only do so by making him act overtly weird or just by having him dump a load of words to Alison about what he feels like he did in the car ride. It's frustrating, because I want to like this comic way more than I do, but the complete lack of subtlety feels really offputting, particularly when it tries to approach social situations. It ends up feeling really preachy and soapboxy and occasionally strawmany, which isn't particularly fun or interesting to read even when I agree with the author.
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Jul 7, 2014 22:28
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Flesh Forge posted:Yeah when he encounters someone and they immediately go "wow Patrick is a loving weirdo!" Human beings instinctively cooperate and socialize, that's our big thing. If anything Patrick should be the most debonair motherfucker in the world. Which is probably one reason he doesn't think of himself as a person, he doesn't want to cooperate and socialize because every thought of the people around him pops into his head, every mundane boring thought, every violent fantasy, every drop of suppressed assholeishness. He could be acting in a way he knows people perceive as weird to keep at a distance.
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Jul 7, 2014 23:33
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It doesn't have to be Asperger's to justify his behavior. We know he is a manipulative liar who uses his power to then assume the social form that will get him what he wants. We also know that his behavior and statements have gotten Alison to do what he wants - stop pursuing him and leave him free to work towards his other goals. He could be really off like that - the read on his power could be "using cheat codes to win doesn't mean you are good at the game". But he is at best an unreliable narrator for his actions and the idea that this is him playing Alison is a possibility.
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Jul 8, 2014 00:33
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Tulul posted:It's frustrating, because I want to like this comic way more than I do, but the complete lack of subtlety feels really offputting, particularly when it tries to approach social situations. It ends up feeling really preachy and soapboxy and occasionally strawmany, which isn't particularly fun or interesting to read even when I agree with the author. This is why I've been frustrated with the comic for this arc. I loved Cleaver, especially the talk with him. The protesters were... a little off, but overall still pretty good. But holy poo poo the party and the judge are just terrible. Absolutely terrible. "This guy is a date rapist. You know this not only because he's trying to date-rape this girl, but also because he looks like a bro, and is unnaturally aggressive towards the invincible main character, and is also a skeevy whiny bitch. This judge let the rapists get off. He did so because he's a wife-beater, definitely sexist and probably an old southern racist too, hell lets toss in some slight implications of child abuse and pedophilia while we're at it!" Christ. I mean, sure, Picasso laid it on thick. But he did so with a brush, not a hose. Cliches and stereotypes are a crutch for writers to quickly and easily give character information to the audience. Not only does her writing seem like it should be beyond that need, she's layering additional stuff on top of the cliche, just to make doubly sure we're positive these are lovely people. And honestly, the subject content of the comic makes me think that she would probably be a lot more comfortable writing subject matter that doesn't reinforce the concept of making snap judgements about people. Captain Bravo fucked around with this message at 12:16 on Jul 8, 2014 |
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Jul 8, 2014 12:13
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The problem is that in writing a superhero comic, heroes are often incredibly reactionary characters. Superheroes who provoke change are supervillains, really. The comic itself has even touched on this in the past. However because this comic is at times about social justice (which is not reactionary because it's a revolutionary act AND a reactionary act that seeks to address problems while simultaneously addressing the social situations that cause them) the comic often finds itself without anyone for her to beat up, which leads to the 'rapists' being a shadowy cabal that exist in the aether and descend only to commit rape in the guise of a man, instead of the reality in which abuse is a product of actions taken under the guise of an imbalance of physical, psychological, emotional, etc. power that people often wield without even realizing they're doing it. However because of the way abuse is portrayed in the day-to-day, it's really, REALLY hard to not depict abusers as like, fuckin' assholes when often they're just people???? They're just people doing stupid poo poo??? Like this comic even does that with that whole party scene Rei_ fucked around with this message at 12:51 on Jul 8, 2014 |
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Jul 8, 2014 12:47
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Captain Bravo posted:This is why I've been frustrated with the comic for this arc. I loved Cleaver, especially the talk with him. The protesters were... a little off, but overall still pretty good. But holy poo poo the party and the judge are just terrible. Absolutely terrible. "This guy is a date rapist. You know this not only because he's trying to date-rape this girl, but also because he looks like a bro, and is unnaturally aggressive towards the invincible main character, and is also a skeevy whiny bitch. This judge let the rapists get off. He did so because he's a wife-beater, definitely sexist and probably an old southern racist too, hell lets toss in some slight implications of child abuse and pedophilia while we're at it!" I understand the sentiment, but I think I want to see how the arc resolves before judging it too thoroughly. There's still a chance that the heavy-handedness will be justified.
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Jul 8, 2014 15:11
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It looks like the arc isn't about rapists or domestic abusers. It's about the proper use of power to stop them. There are plenty of people who commit rape and get away with it. There are plenty of people who will beat their wife at he slightest provocation. I don't think it's a mark against the comic to not get into nuanced and complicated portrayals of this stuff when it's the reaction to this stuff that it really wants to talk about.
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Jul 8, 2014 18:13
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But that's the thing, the judge wasn't murdered because he's a wife-beater, he wasn't murdered because of his antiquated, sexist values, (Although they certainly played a part.) or the implication that he abused his children. He was murdered because someone thought, whether correctly or incorrectly, that he let rapists get out of justice. The black eye plays no part in that. The "Why won't our daughters call?" plays no part in that. His entire character in the two pages we see plays absolutely zero part in the reason why he was murdered, it's just piling on additional bad things so that the audience really gets the point that he was a bad person. I love the point the comic is trying to make right now, check back a few pages where I laid it out, Alison does have to have a hard sober look at how much force is reasonable to bring to bear. But for the last 10-16 pages it's been mired under bullshit piled on to guarantee that the audience won't in any way identify with the bad guys. It's putting these people in comically extreme positions which have nothing to do with the crime they're being punished for, and while it may be for a good reason it just comes off as really crude and blunt.
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Jul 9, 2014 07:28
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I think you're jumping to a lot of conclusions at what is maybe only the halfway point of the issue so far.
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Jul 9, 2014 07:46
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I'm kind of guessing that the crutch of lovely victims that allows the audience to sympathize with the vigilante will slowly be removed until we get to the conclusion of 'Geez, maybe vigilante justice can feel right and good in the moment, but leads to a bad place.'
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Jul 9, 2014 08:59
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So the pdf just came out. The thing about Indian capes was pretty neat.
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Jul 10, 2014 17:32
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as long as we're complaining about various stupid details did anyone else almost roll their eyes out of their sockets when they brought up that the biodynamics in europe didnt call themselves superheroes or anything? i mean cmon europe is not nearly that removed from the concept of capes and im sure plenty of dumb teens would go hog wild for the spandex and domino mask if they got superpowers
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Jul 10, 2014 18:18
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It's dumb. Superheroes are the most widely known frame of reference for superhumans that people have, the best way to get the general populous to accept superhumans is to turn them into superheroes.
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Jul 11, 2014 02:08
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A big flaming stink posted:as long as we're complaining about various stupid details did anyone else almost roll their eyes out of their sockets when they brought up that the biodynamics in europe didnt call themselves superheroes or anything? Well, there are some British superheroes, but I think realistically most people would be like Johnny and be more defined by their interests and abilities than superpowers. The US being an exception is probably a commentary about the US being defined by its use of force. In terms of the story's internal logic, it could also be a reaction to Menace hijacking the first public statement on the phenomenon, meaning that to some extent he defined what that means for Americans.
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Jul 11, 2014 03:00
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It's also likely a comment on the fact that the superhero, in comics, is a distinctly American phenomenon. You see them in other countries, for sure, but the industry is smaller and even in those cases they show heavy influence from American comics. Even actual British folks who make amazing comics, like Alan Moore, Neil Gaiman, and Grant Morrison write them for American houses. I'm not saying that people in France don't know who Superman is... but they know he's an American, too. The fact that we want heroes that dress in skintight spandex and punch down buildings... I don't know what that says about our culture, but there you are.
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Jul 11, 2014 03:19
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idonotlikepeas posted:The fact that we want heroes that dress in skintight spandex and punch down buildings... I don't know what that says about our culture, but there you are. We loving hate buildings, that's for sure.
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Jul 11, 2014 05:10
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We just love our construction industry is all.
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Jul 11, 2014 05:57
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idonotlikepeas posted:I'm not saying that people in France don't know who Superman is... but they know he's an American, too. What need do they have of Superman when they have the infinitely superior Superdupont?
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Jul 11, 2014 06:42
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Wittgen posted:So the pdf just came out. The thing about Indian capes was pretty neat. It did? I didn't get it. Was there an email?
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Jul 11, 2014 13:29
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Yes, I got an email with a link to download the pdf. The email was from strongfemaleprotagonistcomic (gmail), if that helps you search your spam filters.
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Jul 11, 2014 13:41
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Captain Bravo posted:This is why I've been frustrated with the comic for this arc. I loved Cleaver, especially the talk with him. The protesters were... a little off, but overall still pretty good. But holy poo poo the party and the judge are just terrible. Absolutely terrible. "This guy is a date rapist. You know this not only because he's trying to date-rape this girl, but also because he looks like a bro, and is unnaturally aggressive towards the invincible main character, and is also a skeevy whiny bitch. This judge let the rapists get off. He did so because he's a wife-beater, definitely sexist and probably an old southern racist too, hell lets toss in some slight implications of child abuse and pedophilia while we're at it!" I think in the case of the judge it might be laid on so thick so that the message of no matter how terrible a person he was, slitting his throat was the wrong drat thing to do goes in deeper. If he was a nicer person it'd be easier to think 'yeah well it's wrong in this case but it might not be wrong for more terrible people'.
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Jul 12, 2014 11:11
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Yeah, I think that's where they're going with this. If you have the IVS kill people who are clearly not evil, or seem unlikely to be evil, it's a different set of moral problems. You're making a comment on the haphazard nature of vigilantism (and that may yet happen). In this case, the issue at hand is not "should you kill people you think are guilty, some of whom are not", but "should you kill people who are guilty even if the law disagrees". It narrows the questions a bit - one, whether killing people as a punishment is acceptable, two, whether doing so outside the law is acceptable, and three, if the death penalty is acceptable under what circumstances it may be applied. (i.e. Is it okay to have the death penalty for rape?) If you have the IVS killing random innocent people, it gives you an easy out there: of COURSE what she's doing is wrong, duh. If they're actually guilty you have to think about it a bit. Also, we haven't discussed the most recent comic at all. Are the Guardians shutting down? Is Brad just quitting or fired? Is there even a difference since there were only three people in the group at this point anyway?
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Jul 13, 2014 15:59
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It does seem awfully quiet and abandoned for a superhero base. In hindsight I find it somewhat surprising that even earlier during Cleaver's attack, all three of them were just sitting around on monitor-duty or training. I would have thought that there was enough normal crime around to keep them and a large support-crew of normal people busy every waking hour.
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Jul 13, 2014 18:16
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Weren't the Guardians basically formed to fight against super villains? Somewhere along the way, it's been mentioned that all of the big super villains have been arrested or otherwise taken out--Menace was the last one left, and he "disappeared". It makes sense that absent "the big threat", interest and therefore funding has waned.
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Jul 13, 2014 18:59
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Brad is literally loading his belongings into the back of a car here, which is what I was looking at. But yeah, the major supervillains were all done for when Alison quit:  You'll notice Brad isn't wearing his supersuit anymore, either. He definitely wears it around the Gatehouse: 
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Jul 13, 2014 21:30
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idonotlikepeas posted:Yeah, I think that's where they're going with this. If you have the IVS kill people who are clearly not evil, or seem unlikely to be evil, it's a different set of moral problems. You're making a comment on the haphazard nature of vigilantism (and that may yet happen). In this case, the issue at hand is not "should you kill people you think are guilty, some of whom are not", but "should you kill people who are guilty even if the law disagrees". It narrows the questions a bit - one, whether killing people as a punishment is acceptable, two, whether doing so outside the law is acceptable, and three, if the death penalty is acceptable under what circumstances it may be applied. (i.e. Is it okay to have the death penalty for rape?) If you have the IVS killing random innocent people, it gives you an easy out there: of COURSE what she's doing is wrong, duh. If they're actually guilty you have to think about it a bit. Here's the thing though, the entire way through this the point has been that the idea of the supervillain, the person who is evil in every aspect of their life just to be evil, is bullshit. That horrible, horrible things are done every day by good people for what they think are good reasons. That the source of the problem is a lot more complicated, that you can't punch it away, etc etc etc. This is what Alison has been grappling with for the past 3 chapters. Yet here we are getting "nope, these people are totally terrible about everything" It is a complete break from what was one of the prior appeals of the comic, and I think it is throwing a lot of people. It certainly feels off to me.
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Jul 13, 2014 22:26
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Counterpoint: Sheriff Joe Arpiao.
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Jul 14, 2014 00:30
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And see, if the comic was about some superpowered person stabbing Sheriff Joe Arpaio for being a jerk and poo poo, that would be off putting too. Wait actually that'd be pretty cool. Anyway it would be a different comic and would still rub me the wrong way here.
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Jul 14, 2014 01:18
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Pavlov posted:That might have something to do with why he seems so uncomfortable with personal sexuality. Him and Allison are truly a perfect couple. He has no idea where one mind begins and the other ends, and might end up getting lost in a discussion about last nights Game of Thrones thanks to neighbors. She's terrified she'll slip for even a second and level a city block.  That said, I just got into this comic and I absolutely love it. The fact that they've had her be wrong, unsure, or just plain conflicted makes the character likable. We're not told "Hey corporations aren't people!" followed by a CEO wringing their hands that they must destroy this Mega Girl. I will say it can be a bit...blunt at times. But there are times it's appropriate (the main character being an invincible superstrong college student, and all), and I definitely like that. I like that the main character is flawed. We don't see the morally righteous hero standing up to a bigoted crowd by politely asking them to move back. She hurls cars and threatens to violently murder everyone if they don't gently caress right off. As for the beginning of this arc? I can totally see it as being "murdering someone, no matter how awful they are, is wrong". I can see this tying into Allison's apparently televised speech that she wasn't sure if no one was coming to arrest her for what she said because she was unstoppable or because she saved the world so much. A vigilante hero who figures they "deserve" to kill people they find morally disgusting.
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Jul 14, 2014 09:31
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I don't get where Allison is off the hook for things like taking a guy off the floor by his throat because he's possibly spiriting a woman off to have his wicked way with her. I mean yes we are shown that he is A Big Douchebag (TM) and yes we're shown in no uncertain terms that yeah probably he was gonna rape her or something (after she assaults the gently caress out of him) but surely there is a less violent way to interrupt that than clotheslining him and holding up in the air while choking him. Seriously what is the lesson from the comic here for non-super people, if you see Miles with his arm around a drunk chick, shoot him immediately and ask questions later? Allison doesn't show any regret for this other than how her preferred method of intervention is pretty much not cool with normal people and is going to alienate her friends, but gently caress her friends anyway - the comic sidesteps the fact that she was ridiculously violent here because drat those date rapers are shitheels yo! If the topic is appropriate use of force I don't think this is going in a very good direction, the whole party scene just came across as Tumblr Justice. e: The other thing that bothers me here is that nobody questions good ol' Mega Girl taking the same drink chick away jumping off the loving roof, making no phone calls, telling nobody where she's going (just the righteous "Oh, you can see her now?") Oh right she has super powers of course she can't have ill intentions. Good thing Might Makes Right! ... Flesh Forge fucked around with this message at 11:08 on Jul 14, 2014 |
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Jul 14, 2014 11:02
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I don't get where you're coming from there - the comic demonstrated that it was a terrible way to handle that situation, it immediately took everyone's focus off the crime being committed and made them focus on her overuse of force as well as branded her a crazy person in their minds, which helped them in dismissing what she was saying. It was certainly better than doing nothing, but it wasn't great. She's learning that.
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Jul 14, 2014 11:07
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Yeah everyone recognizes that it was a terrible response but Allison. She's totally fine with it and is pretty much gently caress The Rest Of You People Ima Do This poo poo.
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Jul 14, 2014 11:09
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