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Again, maybe hold your horses and see where the story goes? We are on page TWENTY-SEVEN of the current issue while previous ones have ran over fifty and even up to seventy-eight pages. Do you expect story arcs to be over halfway through a movie or book?
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Jul 14, 2014 11:13
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You can have an issue with events that happen in a story without having to wait until the end. If we have a problem with the depiction of a character who dies, it's not like that loving character is going to have a third-act reveal. Sexist Judge is gone, dead, he plays no more parts in the story, and I'd be willing to bet that our interactions with Miles are finished as well. The next 5, 10, or 20 pages are not going to be able to retroactively turn their crappy characterization into something better. The story overall may have more to go to flesh out the reasons for Alison and IVS doing what they do, and learning from their actions, but that doesn't change the fact that the story elements used so far are sloppy and weak. And since those story elements have concluded, it's perfectly fine to bitch about them. If somehow in the next half-chapter the author manages to flesh out the character of wife-beating, child-abusing, sexist old judge, I'll gladly eat these words. But I very much doubt that will happen.
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Jul 14, 2014 13:04
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I do think this chapter is starting to lay things on too thickly. Did the authors need to imply that the judge beats his wife for us to not like him? Why not just have him be an old judge that wants an nice and easy career before he retires; so he rushes a high profile case through the process and lets the wrong people go unpunished? Someone mentioned this last page but the majority of the bad guys in SFP weren't evil in the black & white sense. Antagonists like Patrick when he was Menace, and Cleaver were people shown to be the results of the system working against them and them being given powers that permanently affected their outlook on life. Heck, it was a major plot point to compare Cleaver and Alison's development because their roles could easily have been reversed if Alison was the one to get knife hands and gray skin. If the author is trying to make a similar comparison between Alison and the IVS's methods of handling situations it has yet to be made explicit. And the one scene where Alison was going to be presented with the flaws with her thought process she literally jumps out a window to go handle someone else's drama. This may be the type of chapter that will be better after it's over because right now things are just a little too scattered and ham-fisted for me to like it as much as previous chapters.
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Jul 14, 2014 13:47
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Huh, I figured PintSized was getting too close to Patrick, wo then messed with his head, not that PintSized started quoting sad boy poetry because the group is breaking up
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Jul 16, 2014 04:52
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Flesh Forge posted:Yeah everyone recognizes that it was a terrible response but Allison. She's totally fine with it and is pretty much gently caress The Rest Of You People Ima Do This poo poo. I think you're misunderstanding, or at the very least jumping the gun. If the comic were congratulating Allison's hasty and often violent decision-making then I'd see where you're getting at, but it's not and people aren't. This is presented as a character flaw of hers. Would it be more interesting if there were no conflict or tension between what Allison chooses to do and what she should do? The authors obviously know Allison's tendency to over-escalate is wrong or else the comic would be congratulating her and not, you know, trying to reason with her. Allison's actions are also clearly transposed against those of the invisible vigilante throat slasher, who in all likelihood is going to act as both a foil and a warning. The issue of her use of violence isn't resolved and the chapter doesn't even look close to being done. It's not "Tumblr Justice," it's an angry superhuman who wants to do better than just be a blunt instrument against whatever injustices she sees but has a hard time not seeing every single situation as a nail because she's essentially the world's biggest hammer. And that one bystander at the party was suspicious of Allison when she was about to take the drunk girl home. That's why Allison gave her rebuttal. Because he obviously wasn't suspicious of anything when Miles was trying to sneak her out. Also, the whole "shitheels getting murdered" thing is pretty hamfisted, but honestly if there's going to be an Allison v. IVS confrontation, IVS would probably have a harder time making her case if it was even more patently obvious (than it obviously is) that her victims didn't necessarily deserve to die.
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Jul 16, 2014 06:27
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T.G. Xarbala posted:I think you're misunderstanding, or at the very least jumping the gun. Yeah see, there's a huge difference between the party scene and the scene where Feral gets firebombed. There, Allison loses her temper* and key point, shortly after she is visibly regretful. At the party she goes way too far in response to a way less serious situation but she's totally self-righteous about it. It's okay here though because gently caress them date rapers yo. * and I don't mean her reflexive killing of the firebomber, I mean where she's all ".. or I'm going to kill every last one of you." e: On the other hand the comic could be heading towards Allison being a pretty lovely moralist and having a really inconsistent sense of justice and that might be pretty hilarious and cool, but I'm fairly sure that's not what the author intends Flesh Forge fucked around with this message at 08:12 on Jul 16, 2014 |
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Jul 16, 2014 08:08
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Flesh Forge posted:Yeah see, there's a huge difference between the party scene and the scene where Feral gets firebombed. There, Allison loses her temper* and key point, shortly after she is visibly regretful. At the party she goes way too far in response to a way less serious situation but she's totally self-righteous about it. It's okay here though because gently caress them date rapers yo. Roughing up creepy jerks isn't exactly something that most people tend to angst over. Edit to expand on things: I'm not saying SFP isn't heavy-handed, it loads its social justice like buttering toast with a trowel and honestly it can get ridiculous sometimes. This whole IVS thing is causing so many mixed reactions because it's obviously so contrived, though a few people are reluctant to put it in those exact terms. But while the situations are ham-fisted, you're coming at this from a weird angle by taking issue with the character, Allison. We already know she's hot-headed and self-righteous. She showed regret about nearly killing dozens of civilians in a rage. That's kinda different from saving a drunk girl from being taken advantage of at a party. The thought that "I was this close to murdering all of those people" doesn't elicit the same emotional response as "Those assholes didn't even care that this poor girl could've gotten raped and that creep Miles is a cowardly crybaby." And you know, it's really difficult to be convinced you're wrong if that's what you're thinking, because righteous indignation is a hell of a drug. Now, being able to see this takes a bit of empathy for Allison and her situation. Not being able to see the difference between Allison feeling guilt over nearly murdering a bunch of protestors in a rage and Allison being stubbornly self-righteous about subduing and terrifying some idiot with a nonlethal display of force takes a severe lack of empathy for either Allison or the idiot's would-be victim. How are these inconsistent with what we've seen of Allison's sense of justice? A lot of people are willing to empathize with Miles and are horrified by Allison's actions, both in the comic and in real life, but surprisingly enough not very many people are willing to extend that much consideration for Allison, much less Daphne. Especially Daphne. Remember, the start of the chapter basically spelled out the whole hammer-and-nail thing with Allison's presentation to her class. She didn't realize it at the time, but she was foreshadowing the issue she was about to run into headfirst. She wants to be able to resolve things through talking, through political and social action. She is a walking force of nature used to solving problems by beating them to death, possibly with buildings, maybe with vehicles or lampposts. And even if she doesn't want to admit it, sometimes she just doesn't have the toolbox to handle delicate and pervasive social issues. Carrasco posted:So this page mentions that Moonshadow is both incredibly stealthy and has apparently been off the radar for a while. What're the odds she turns out to be the vigilante? Nice catch. Runa fucked around with this message at 09:18 on Jul 16, 2014 |
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Jul 16, 2014 08:14
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So this page mentions that Moonshadow is both incredibly stealthy and has apparently been off the radar for a while. What're the odds she turns out to be the vigilante?
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Jul 16, 2014 09:10
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T.G. Xarbala posted:We already know she's hot-headed and self-righteous. She showed regret about nearly killing dozens of civilians in a rage. That's kinda different from saving a drunk girl from being taken advantage of at a party. Yes, in that her behavior at the party is much worse because it's objectively much less justified and is a calmly delivered physical assault, but you are going the other way with it (gently caress them date rapers yo!) which is what the author seems to intend. Which is pretty deplorable really.
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Jul 16, 2014 10:14
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Flesh Forge posted:Yes, in that her behavior at the party is much worse because it's objectively much less justified and is a calmly delivered physical assault, but you are going the other way with it (gently caress them date rapers yo!) which is what the author seems to intend. Which is pretty deplorable really. Well, why should she be regretting her actions at this point? She didn't kill anybody, certainly didn't intend to, and merely gave someone a fright and possibly some soiled underpants. From her perspective, she's done nothing wrong. For an ordinary human lifting someone up by their neck seems extreme, but if you're wondering if she somehow has an inconsistent sense of justice from this, you're clearly forgetting one extremely telling moment: She walked up to a supervillain, told him that they were a lot alike, and meant it. She's as angry and frustrated as he is, and if she was in Cleaver's shoes she probably wouldn't have done any differently. She said, without a trace of irony, that the world should be glad she restrains herself as much as she does, because she's often tempted to give in to the urge to release those restraints. If you weren't paying attention, this is the core point of the comic. It's an idea that's been repeated again and again. This isn't something the authors "didn't intend," the difference between what Allison could do, should do, and does do is the central moral conflict driving Allison's character arc. This is who she is, as much as disproportionately lethal retribution defines the Punisher and superhuman invincible rage defines the Hulk. And I chose those examples specifically, because she's very, very at risk of becoming either. She's afraid of what happens if she lets her rage take her over. But she doesn't yet realize the slippery slope of what is or is not justifiable force could lead to situations like the IVS. What about my reading of the situation and how Allison interprets the situation makes the author, or me, deplorable? But seriously though, if mildly roughing somebody up is worse than threatening to commit mass murder then every character Jackie Chan has ever played is a complete monster. Runa fucked around with this message at 11:02 on Jul 16, 2014 |
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Jul 16, 2014 10:30
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I'm totally on board with the idea the Power Corrupts, and that Allison is kind of a terrible person when you get right down to it, but I'm really pretty sure that the author does not intend this. What you are saying is literally that Might Makes Right, which is fundamentally a really terrible outlook that is super common in comic books and other media like say Mein Kampf. I guess I'm the dumb one for hoping this particular comic's protagonist aspired to better ideals. e: I don't know how to break down "Might Makes Right" more simply than that, so if this comes across as flippant, oh well I'm a shithead sorry idk
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Jul 16, 2014 12:22
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How are you getting "Might makes Right" from that? 
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Jul 16, 2014 12:29
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Flesh Forge posted:I'm totally on board with the idea the Power Corrupts, and that Allison is kind of a terrible person when you get right down to it, but I'm really pretty sure that the author does not intend this. What you are saying is literally that Might Makes Right, which is fundamentally a really terrible outlook that is super common in comic books and other media like say Mein Kampf. I guess I'm the dumb one for hoping this particular comic's protagonist aspired to better ideals. Feel free to jump to conclusions, but in future bear in mind that the failure to live up to an ideal does not mean one is not aspiring towards it. Also,  Edit: It's growing more apparent that my now-struckout reaction was a misunderstanding, and for what it's worth that's on me. Runa fucked around with this message at 13:35 on Jul 16, 2014 |
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Jul 16, 2014 12:30
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quote:From her perspective, she's done nothing wrong. For an ordinary human lifting someone up by their neck seems extreme, but if you're wondering if she somehow has an inconsistent sense of justice from this, you're clearly forgetting one extremely telling moment: She walked up to a supervillain, told him that they were a lot alike, and meant it. Since Allison is not ordinary (she is mighty) she has done nothing wrong (she is right). This is super problematic. T.G. Xarbala posted:Feel free to jump to conclusions, but in future bear in mind that the failure to live up to an ideal does not mean one is not aspiring towards it. You give the impression of someone who hasn't actually read the comic and are just hopping in because it's SJWs R' Us and, while I can't really fault someone for a good ol' fashioned troll in what looks like Tumblrland, I'm kinda disappointed because I assumed the discussion was in good faith. Now you're getting personal because I have differing opinions about a webcomic dude. Step back. e: It isn't that she failed to live up to the ideal, it's that she doesn't show that she has the ideal at all in the party scene, which is kind of a big reversal from the Feral firebomb scene/conversation with Daniel. But I haven't read the comic so there's no way I could know this I guess. Flesh Forge fucked around with this message at 12:35 on Jul 16, 2014 |
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Jul 16, 2014 12:33
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Flesh Forge posted:Now you're getting personal because I have differing opinions about a webcomic dude. Step back. Sorry, it's just that you're tripping some classic "I'm actually just a troll" flags here. There is literally no reason to bring up Mein Kampf except to invoke Godwin's Law, after all. I mean you literally, if indirectly, just now equated a webcomic character with Hitler because she scared-but-not-seriously-harmed an alleged potential rapist. If you think my reaction to that was a personal attack and not merely an expression of exasperation, welp. And if you're citing the party scene as evidence that Allison lacks ideals, again, recall what I said about using empathy to gain perspective into a character's actions. The thing about slippery slopes is that it's a lot easier to slip down them if you can justify them to yourself. She was clearly acting rashly due to what she perceived to be an impending crisis, because that's what she does. Might makes right is problematic (but also not exactly something you can ignore on a purely practical level, we live in a world where might really does make right, and if that weren't the case then sovereign governments wouldn't feel compelled to maintain a monopoly of force to remain sovereign or even functional), and Allison is going to have to get over herself and grow up, but do you really have to be so sanctimonious about it?
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Jul 16, 2014 12:53
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T.G. Xarbala posted:Sorry, ... welp. "Sorry but" nice! You also keep missing the point, that the comic is pandering to the gently caress The Date Raper demographic here (I guess you are in this demographic). Not that Date Rapers are precious things that need to be defended but I can think of various nonviolent approaches to interrupting Miles that the author chose not to depict. quote:Might makes right is problematic (but also not exactly something you can ignore on a purely practical level, we live in a world where might really does make right, and if that weren't the case then sovereign governments wouldn't feel compelled to maintain a monopoly of force to remain sovereign or even functional), and Allison is going to have to get over herself and grow up, but do you really have to be so sanctimonious about it? From the very beginning, the comic has said it's not about what is pragmatic but rather what is right. "do you really have to be so sanctimonious" Do you have to be a snide dick to anyone who disagrees with you?
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Jul 16, 2014 13:08
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Flesh Forge posted:"Sorry but" nice! You also keep missing the point, that the comic is pandering to the gently caress The Date Raper demographic here (I guess you are in this demographic). Not that Date Rapers are precious things that need to be defended but I can think of various nonviolent approaches to interrupting Miles that the author chose not to depict. I'm not exactly the kind of person to get really offended when a jerk gets, say, punched or something. I'm totally down with seeing a character sock another character in the jaw for being a dick, so all this hand-wringing about lifting up some shifty guy at a party looks disproportionate. Honestly this situation is only getting special attention because he's an alleged rapist and not just some rear end in a top hat.
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Jul 16, 2014 13:14
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It's almost like this isn't a real world situation and like, a guy wrote this on purpose!
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Jul 16, 2014 13:20
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You can still gauge one's response to a fictional situation based on personal perspective, though.
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Jul 16, 2014 13:22
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Carrasco posted:So this page mentions that Moonshadow is both incredibly stealthy and has apparently been off the radar for a while. What're the odds she turns out to be the vigilante? More than likely. I think the Guardian's overall are falling apart because their world has moved on. All the major super-villains have been detained or are missing so there isn't really a need for a Hall of Justice staffed by a team of superheroes. Allison (possibly unintentionally) caught on to this when she was questioned by that reporter asking if she was going to begin working with the military in the event of other supers being used in the field. And while Pint Size has been portrayed as one of the only Guardians who still believes in saving the world that doesn't mean that the others don't want to bring justice or retribution to the world in their own way. If Moonshadow has grown disillusioned by how little things change when she works within the system, It's possible that she has gone full vigilante. She has means (depending on her ability) and access to enough information to learn where each of her targets will be (between a super hacker and government contacts).
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Jul 16, 2014 14:22
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Having it be Moonshadow would tie things together nicely in some ways; it's easy to present the IVS as a parallel for Alison's behavior if she literally used to be on the same super-team with her. That parallel has been established throughout this chapter, starting with the cover page: That would leave me a bit confused as to why the IVS said she was not a "who", though. And we've seen Moonshadow talk before and she didn't have the weird font. Could be an effect of talking with the powers on, though, I suppose. Either way, I definitely think we're heading for more talk about the nature of vigilantism and the appropriate use of force.
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Jul 16, 2014 14:34
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T.G. Xarbala posted:I'm not exactly the kind of person to get really offended when a jerk gets, say, punched or something. I'm totally down with seeing a character sock another character in the jaw for being a dick, so all this hand-wringing about lifting up some shifty guy at a party looks disproportionate. It might have something to do with Allison being a woman too, I can't recall the last time I heard of someone complaining about Batman's use of force.
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Jul 16, 2014 14:52
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Has there been any speculation that the weird distortion that Kaylee visited granted her powers, and that she is IVS?
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Jul 16, 2014 14:53
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idonotlikepeas posted:That would leave me a bit confused as to why the IVS said she was not a "who", though. And we've seen Moonshadow talk before and she didn't have the weird font. Could be an effect of talking with the powers on, though, I suppose. I also have a theory on how IVS's ability works. IVS has a form of specialized telepathy. This allows her to mentally convince people around her that she is not there and is likely the reason why her voice also looks distorted because you don't see the source of the noise. It could also explain why Brad, a biodynamic with heightened senses, has difficulty detecting her since she can trick his "radar" into thinking she is not there at all. However, since she is still physically present in the world people under the influence of her suggestion perceive a warp in space at the location she is at. Being a form of mental suggestion this is probably why IVS is still able to carry weapons with her since she just convinces you that they aren't there. Brought To You By fucked around with this message at 15:04 on Jul 16, 2014 |
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Jul 16, 2014 14:57
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I know it's not meant to be funny, but the second to the last panel in http://strongfemaleprotagonist.com/issue-5/page-9-6/ always cracks me up. It's just so unintentionally hilarious.
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Jul 16, 2014 14:58
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Hey man having your throat cut hurts, you'd cry too!
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Jul 16, 2014 15:02
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Atmus posted:I know it's not meant to be funny, but the second to the last panel in http://strongfemaleprotagonist.com/issue-5/page-9-6/ always cracks me up. It's just so unintentionally hilarious. All of the throat cutting scenes crack me up. Their facial expressions are just interpretable enough for me to see them thinking "WHERE IS ALL THIS RASPBERRY JAM COMING FROM OH NOOOOOOOOO".
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Jul 16, 2014 15:03
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MikeJF posted:Has there been any speculation that the weird distortion that Kaylee visited granted her powers, and that she is IVS? I wondered about that, actually, but this page suggests otherwise:  Unless there's a time cut between panels 3 and 5, we see both of them doing different things at the same time.
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Jul 16, 2014 15:04
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I would guess its not Moonshadow just because the depiction of moonshadow (http://strongfemaleprotagonist.com/issue-2/sfp-2-29/) doesnt fit with the silhouette of the stabby person on the cover.
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Jul 16, 2014 17:31
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rotinaj posted:All of the throat cutting scenes crack me up. Their facial expressions are just interpretable enough for me to see them thinking "WHERE IS ALL THIS RASPBERRY JAM COMING FROM OH NOOOOOOOOO". Also, 'Clevin' managed to irritate me more than five rapers, a wife-beater, and an indifferent cop. What the gently caress is a 'best cousin'? Is that a regional thing, or is Clevin ranking his extended family members? "I have some lovely cousins that you didn't manage to save, but I don't care about that. Want to see some foreign movies? Foreign movie watching means I'm deep. Also I am wearing a domino mask as a headband because I also wear glasses." Atmus fucked around with this message at 19:39 on Jul 16, 2014 |
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Jul 16, 2014 19:35
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Something that's bugging me is that Daphne's (as far as I can tell that's the name of the girl who Allison gave a lift back home) friends/roommates are kind of assholes. They told her that they were going to be there in 15 minutes, two hours before the whole thing went down. And then go "Oh Daphne, getting drunk trying to keep up with us." Am I missing something here? I really hope this is just them forgetting rather than something more sinister.
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Jul 16, 2014 20:22
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she also might have more than two friends, and may have been talking about someone else? Someone is an rear end in a top hat.
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Jul 16, 2014 22:15
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Atmus posted:Also, 'Clevin' managed to irritate me more than five rapers, a wife-beater, and an indifferent cop. Yeah that whole party scene was kind of weird and uncomfortable, even before the incident. Must have been super awkward for Allison, a bunch of cape fans (fetishists?) standing around trying to be cool at her. Tortured analogies spring to mind, like being the only black person invited to a hip-hop themed party, or the only actual gay person at a pride event. And it's all fine until the minority does something that's not in the script.
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Jul 17, 2014 02:23
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That's our friend Miles. Please don't kill him. 
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Jul 17, 2014 04:45
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That's my friend Daphne. Please don't rape her.
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Jul 17, 2014 05:53
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Brought To You By posted:I also have a theory on how IVS's ability works. IVS has a form of specialized telepathy. This allows her to mentally convince people around her that she is not there and is likely the reason why her voice also looks distorted because you don't see the source of the noise. It could also explain why Brad, a biodynamic with heightened senses, has difficulty detecting her since she can trick his "radar" into thinking she is not there at all.
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Jul 17, 2014 05:53
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Flesh Forge posted:That's our friend Miles. Please don't kill him. Roughing up date-rapists is an honorable pasttime, one that's run in our family for generations. I'll not have you slander it, sir. 
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Jul 17, 2014 07:01
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Alison holding a dude by his throat is more like holding a gun to his head than it is just roughing up a guy.
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Jul 17, 2014 07:13
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Same for me. My hands are registered as lethal weapons. I have to walk around with them in my pockets, since my state doesn't allow open carry.
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Jul 17, 2014 07:15
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Small Frozen Thing posted:Same for me. My hands are registered as lethal weapons. I have to walk around with them in my pockets, since my state doesn't allow open carry. ...do you have a concealed weapon permit?
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Jul 17, 2014 20:49
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