|
Gantolandon posted:I didn't say anything like that and still got accused of trying to silence the minorities. rudatron disagreed with the notion that exposing racism at individual level is really a good tactics and got the same treatment. It's pretty much a standard in social justice threads - accusations of unconscious or even overt racism are thrown at flimsiest pretexts imaginable. Well, to be fair, the climate change thread has people in it who want to engage in actual conversation and not derail the thread or spout the same bad-faith opinions that get shouted everytime race comes up in conversation. Heck, this whole thread began with some white dude trying to ask D&D if his black friend is crazy for thinking that white people are the cause of 99% of black people's problems. He got an answer (an overwhelming "Yeah, no poo poo"), didn't like it, left, and in came the trolls. Don't pretend that this thread even began well-intentioned or on the right track. 
|
#
?
Jun 27, 2014 23:59
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 28, 2024 00:40 |
|
|
nutranurse posted:Well, to be fair, the climate change thread has people in it who want to engage in actual conversation and not derail the thread or spout the same bad-faith opinions that get shouted everytime race comes up in conversation. This thread has been on topic since its first page and you actually were one of the people that started the SJW "derail". Even before there were people who claimed that "SJW" today means the same as "friend of the family-lover" several decades ago, so the whole topic doesn't seem to be completely irrelevant. I would really like to see an example of a successful race thread, where people actually could disagree without being immediately dismissed.
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2014 00:18
|
|
|
Main Paineframe posted:It's no different from climate change deniers - they're ignoring or dismissing the overwhelming evidence that climate change exists because they don't want to believe that it exists, they don't want to believe they're complicit in it, or they believe in an ideology which requires it to be false. And when they're inevitably shrugged off as cranks unwilling to engage in good science, they similarly claim that the scientific community is just promoting dogma and dismissing disagreement.  Ah, but just like racism, isn't your climate change theory unfalsifiable because you've defined everyone who doesn't agree as a crank who can't or won't look at the evidence because for ideological reasons?So there we have it, if a single conservative doesn't agree with you and you ignore that, you're unscientific and wrong QED
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2014 00:19
|
|
|
Gantolandon posted:Show me this "overwhelming evidence" Kareem Abdul-Jabbar's article supposedly contained. He presented statistics how many whites believe in racism and claimed they actually are wrong and can't spot racism anyway. Here's the willful blindness, "show me the evidence." KAJ was writing for an audience who has not chosen to pluck out their own eyes and step on them rather than notice the constant onslaught of statistics showing persistent racial bias in hiring, housing and the administration of justice. There is an overwhelming body of unassailable evidence that racism exists and is universal. So it takes a real dumbass to argue with the proposition that "people who won't admit racism exists are blind to it." It's proven.
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2014 00:23
|
|
|
VitalSigns posted:
Research papers are not written with an assumption that everyone disagreeing with them is a denier that should be ignored.
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2014 00:27
|
|
|
SedanChair posted:Here's the willful blindness, "show me the evidence." Ah, so you don't have any evidence. I knew it, racism is a thing black people got together and made up in 1965  Gantolandon posted:Research papers are not written with an assumption that everyone disagreeing with them is a denier that should be ignored. Deniers ignore those research papers though, that's why they're deniers. Can I dismiss them as cranks then, or does that suddenly become an unfalsifiable circular argument?
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2014 00:27
|
|
|
SedanChair posted:Here's the willful blindness, "show me the evidence." KAJ was writing for an audience who has not chosen to pluck out their own eyes and step on them rather than notice the constant onslaught of statistics showing persistent racial bias in hiring, housing and the administration of justice. There is an overwhelming body of unassailable evidence that racism exists and is universal. So it takes a real dumbass to argue with the proposition that "people who won't admit racism exists are blind to it." It's proven. Actually, the author suggested a bit more: quote:To their family, closest friends and adoring pets, they’re just plain-speaking Americans who have probably said the phrase, “I don’t care if you’re white, black, yellow or purple.” (FYI: You might be a racist if you’ve used that phrase.) quote:One symptom of the malady is the many apologists using the election of President Obama as proof that racism doesn’t exist in the U.S. Denying racism in any way, either on your part or your society, is racist in itself. Disagreed with his example of a racist behavior - avoiding a group of (black) teenagers standing in the dark alley in the middle of the night? Congratulations, that makes you even more racist. You can't ever disagree without becoming a part of the problem, which - of course - makes your argument invalid. VitalSigns posted:Deniers ignore those research papers though, that's why they're deniers. Can I dismiss them as cranks then, or does that suddenly become an unfalsifiable circular argument? "Falsifiability" means a possibility to be proven false. There are many ways you can prove a research paper wrong - for example by presenting conflicting evidence or pointing out errors. Ignoring it doesn't prove anything. A set of beliefs stating that everyone disagreeing with it is outright wrong and probably evil is not falsifiable.
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2014 00:56
|
|
|
Gantolandon posted:A set of beliefs stating that everyone disagreeing with it is outright wrong and probably evil is not falsifiable. There are many ways you could falsify the claim that racism is ubiquitous in America as well. It's just that no one ever does that because the evidence doesn't support that so they just cry instead about why won't anyone take them seriously.
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2014 01:04
|
|
|
VitalSigns posted:There are many ways you could falsify the claim that racism is ubiquitous in America as well. You can't falsify the notion that claiming something is not racist is actually racist in itself - a belief that shows up in KAJ's article and is frequently expressed in racism threads in this forums. This is the bit I found hard to stomach, not the one stating that racism is prevalent in America.
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2014 01:34
|
|
|
Gantolandon posted:You can't falsify the notion that claiming something is not racist is actually racist in itself - a belief that shows up in KAJ's article and is frequently expressed in racism threads in this forums. This is the bit I found hard to stomach, not the one stating that racism is prevalent in America. I think I see the problem, you can't even keep what you said straight. You keep shifting around, gently caress.
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2014 01:52
|
|
|
SedanChair posted:I think I see the problem, you can't even keep what you said straight. You keep shifting around, gently caress. I think I found the problem - you can't read. This is the quote from my first post in this thread: quote:He presents racism as the insidious enemy that's everywhere - and if you don't see it, it's only because it makes you blind to its presence. This makes dismissing anyone who criticizes the article in any way incredibly easy. If you disagree with any of his claims, you automatically are proven wrong - because it only means you're too racist to perceive how bad your society is.
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2014 01:54
|
|
|
JeffersonClay posted:Sharing experiences is a necessary precondition to recognizing common interests. In this space of subjectivity-as-reality, there isn't any room for disagreement or criticism: either of which must always be an attack on character, or the result of the opponents faulty character. SedanChair has demonstrated this with their behaviour in this thread, but they are not unique; this poo poo is everywhere. Kristov posted:Also, the reason there is no well defined failure state is because we are failing always right now. We are in a constant failure state, so the only real way to measure progress is with legislative achievements (or setbacks), or by looking back and seeing if we are failing less hard. rudatron fucked around with this message at 06:12 on Jun 28, 2014 |
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2014 01:56
|
|
|
Oh is my "behavior" too unruly for you?Gantolandon posted:I think I found the problem - you can't read. Yes shitbird, and that's God's truth. I and others responded to point that out and you barf up this: Gantolandon posted:You can't falsify the notion that claiming something is not racist is actually racist in itself We weren't talking about "something" idiot. We were talking about that racism is the insidious enemy that is everywhere. It is. You got called on it and blobbed over to some other irrelevant poo poo. woke wedding drone fucked around with this message at 02:08 on Jun 28, 2014 |
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2014 02:04
|
|
|
SedanChair posted:Oh is my "behavior" too unruly for you? Maybe if you haven't taken a half of the sentence from an entire batch of sentences, you would have realized this is exactly the thing I meant in this quote: quote:You can't falsify the notion that claiming something is not racist is actually racist in itself - a belief that shows up in KAJ's article and is frequently expressed in racism threads in this forums. This is the bit I found hard to stomach, not the one stating that racism is prevalent in America. Hell, I already explained I don't claim that racism is not everywhere, mostly because another poster explicitly asked for this. It's almost like you tried to be an obstructive moron whenever the conversation doesn't go your way, which seems to happen somewhat frequently in this thread. By the way, it's nice you decided to comment rudatron's effortpost with a lovely one-liner, it's going to raise awareness like it never has risen before.
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2014 02:13
|
|
|
Gantolandon posted:Hell, I already explained I don't claim that racism is not everywhere, mostly because another poster explicitly asked for this. If you already think that racism is still around, why do you keep demanding evidence to prove that it exists, though?
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2014 03:20
|
|
|
Gantolandon posted:This thread has been on topic since its first page and you actually were one of the people that started the SJW "derail". Even before there were people who claimed that "SJW" today means the same as "friend of the family-lover" several decades ago, so the whole topic doesn't seem to be completely irrelevant. This thread is a gbs racist honeypot thread, I hope that helps. edit: the op is "my black friends" think white people want slavery back. thoughts??? Berke Negri fucked around with this message at 04:00 on Jun 28, 2014 |
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2014 03:57
|
|
|
Mormon Star Wars posted:If you already think that racism is still around, why do you keep demanding evidence to prove that it exists, though? The complication arises when the admission that racism exists is also thought to mean an admission that every accusation of racism is valid because of it. Racism is an institutional thing that exists, but it occurs in numerous questionable individual situations and interactions multiplied over millions throughout the country. The SJW mindset is that every one of these individual situations (whose merit will not even be discussed) should be witch-hunted down and result in some sort of public shaming or economic bullying. Inevitably, when someone challenges the notion that whatever particular situation is currently being discussed is racist or not, the default defense becomes "You don't think racism is a thing? That makes you a racist, too!"
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2014 04:15
|
|
|
Gantolandon posted:Show me this "overwhelming evidence" Kareem Abdul-Jabbar's article supposedly contained. He presented statistics how many whites believe in racism and claimed they actually are wrong and can't spot racism anyway. Plenty of the overwhelming evidence has been posted in this thread. Was all of it included in that one specific article? Probably not, but if you insist on ignoring every article that says racism exists without repeating the widely-available and easily findable evidence that racism exists, I daresay you're exactly the kind of person Kareem was calling out. People debate people who are willing to debate, but you're clearly arguing in bad faith so why bother putting forth any real effort in telling off a guy who's concerned about how we just aren't open enough to the opinions of racists? Gantolandon posted:You can't falsify the notion that claiming something is not racist is actually racist in itself - a belief that shows up in KAJ's article and is frequently expressed in racism threads in this forums. This is the bit I found hard to stomach, not the one stating that racism is prevalent in America. Of course you can. The notion that "starting fires with matches instead of flint" is not racist can't reasonably be portrayed as racist. However, claiming that it's not racist to cross the street when you see a black teen heading your way is assuredly racist - it's defending blatantly racist behavior under the cloak of "well, I don't see why that's racist".
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2014 04:19
|
|
|
natetimm posted:The complication arises when the admission that racism exists is also thought to mean an admission that every accusation of racism is valid because of it. What are some examples of accusations of racism that proved not to be valid?
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2014 04:24
|
|
|
SedanChair posted:What are some examples of accusations of racism that proved not to be valid? Is it your assertion that every instance of claimed racism is valid?
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2014 04:37
|
|
|
natetimm posted:Is it your assertion that every instance of claimed racism is valid? I didn't make any assertion. Is my question unclear?
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2014 04:52
|
|
|
SedanChair posted:Oh is my "behavior" too unruly for you? rudatron fucked around with this message at 05:19 on Jun 28, 2014 |
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2014 05:14
|
|
|
SedanChair posted:I didn't make any assertion. Is my question unclear? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tawana_Brawley_rape_allegations http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_lacrosse_case http://wweek.com/portland/article-3799-the_perfect_victim.html http://www.startribune.com/local/11594256.html http://www.lohud.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070309/NEWS02/703090394/1018 EDIT: There was a freeper link and I took it off just because gently caress them.
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2014 05:27
|
|
|
natetimm posted:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tawana_Brawley_rape_allegations But the media coverage of all of those events was loaded with racism. In fact they're all carefully preserved by right-wingers as examples of made-up racism, and their discussion always prompts plenty of racist diatribes, as I'm sure the freep link you removed would have shown.
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2014 05:36
|
|
|
SedanChair posted:But the media coverage of all of those events was loaded with racism. In fact they're all carefully preserved by right-wingers as examples of made-up racism, and their discussion always prompts plenty of racist diatribes, as I'm sure the freep link you removed would have shown. I agree, and you wouldn't believe the amount of poo poo and right-wing garbage I had to wade through to get them. However, if you're going to assert that every case of claimed racism is valid until proved otherwise, you end up wearing these crazy fuckers as an albatross around your neck willingly. Don't get me wrong, I know assholes are going to try and hang it there anyway, but ascribing to absolutes like that just plays into it. Knowing that institutional racism exists is not the same as being able to safely say every accusation of racism occuring everywhere is valid. Every instance deserves to stand on its own merit and be judged fairly.
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2014 05:49
|
|
|
natetimm posted:I agree, and you wouldn't believe the amount of poo poo and right-wing garbage I had to wade through to get them. However, if you're going to assert that every case of claimed racism is valid until proved otherwise, you end up wearing these crazy fuckers as an albatross around your neck willingly. Don't get me wrong, I know assholes are going to try and hang it there anyway, but ascribing to absolutes like that just plays into it. Knowing that institutional racism exists is not the same as being able to safely say every accusation of racism occuring everywhere is valid. Every instance deserves to stand on its own merit and be judged fairly. #NotallWhitePeople
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2014 05:59
|
|
|
Main Paineframe posted:Of course you can. The notion that "starting fires with matches instead of flint" is not racist can't reasonably be portrayed as racist. However, claiming that it's not racist to cross the street when you see a black teen heading your way is assuredly racist - it's defending blatantly racist behavior under the cloak of "well, I don't see why that's racist". Except that the example from the article wasn't about crossing the street when you see a black teen. KAJ posted:The clichéd example: You’re walking down a dark, deserted street and a bunch of black teens adorned with dagger tattoos and carrying bongs made from human skulls are walking toward you. If you cross the street, are you being a racist or a realist? The skin color of the group is the least important concern here. I consider this example stupid because I would have probably done the same in my overwhelmingly white country seeing a group of white teens (18-20) adorned with insingnia of their favorite soccer team. Hell, I did in the past, being a scrawny teenager and having to cross less savory parts of town. I would love to hear why the above example, according to the author, should be considered as racist. quote:Plenty of the overwhelming evidence has been posted in this thread. Was all of it included in that one specific article? Probably not, but if you insist on ignoring every article that says racism exists without repeating the widely-available and easily findable evidence that racism exists, I daresay you're exactly the kind of person Kareem was calling out. People debate people who are willing to debate, but you're clearly arguing in bad faith so why bother putting forth any real effort in telling off a guy who's concerned about how we just aren't open enough to the opinions of racists? Show me a part of my post where I demanded a proof that racism exists. I wanted a proof of the statement the author made - that everyone who doesn't see racism in himself or his society does this because of their inherent racism. Gantolandon fucked around with this message at 09:22 on Jun 28, 2014 |
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2014 09:17
|
|
|
I'd ignore Gantolandon. He's a European racist - just ask him about his thoughts on Roma being prone to criminality. He's certainly not arguing in good faith here.
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2014 09:26
|
|
|
shrike82 posted:I'd ignore Gantolandon. He's a European racist - just ask him about his thoughts on Roma being prone to criminality. He's certainly not arguing in good faith here. But I never said anything about Roma being prone to criminality?
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2014 10:01
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 28, 2024 00:40 |
|
|
natetimm posted:I agree, and you wouldn't believe the amount of poo poo and right-wing garbage I had to wade through to get them. However, if you're going to assert that every case of claimed racism is valid until proved otherwise, you end up wearing these crazy fuckers as an albatross around your neck willingly. Don't get me wrong, I know assholes are going to try and hang it there anyway, but ascribing to absolutes like that just plays into it. Knowing that institutional racism exists is not the same as being able to safely say every accusation of racism occuring everywhere is valid. Every instance deserves to stand on its own merit and be judged fairly. Anybody who is harboring Tawana Brawley in their mind isn't worth worrying about or saving.
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2014 16:57
|
|