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Jun 15, 2014 01:59
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MarksMan posted:Also, according to him and his friends (this is something he "shared"), white people did not end slavery -- for some reasoning I don't quite fully understand? Except all those...white people....in.............government.......................................
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Jun 15, 2014 02:22
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OP, would whites re-institute slavery today if they could in as literal a manner as you intend the question, and in as literal a manner as you are capable of processing arguments? Of course not. Markets proved wage slavery to be generally superior to chattel slavery, which is why the South got all butthurt and started a terroristic civil war to begin with. Is the status quo of racism any better than chattel slavery--or if it is, is credit due to whites for this improved state? No, and this is what your friends seem to understand. I like your friends by the way, and I'm glad they're patient with you.
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Jun 15, 2014 02:36
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Are people seriously wondering if the present status quo is better than literal chattel slavery? Guess what, back when there was chattel slavery there were still things like exploitation, debt slavery, racism, and discrimination, there were just human beings being openly sold in markets and transported in chains on top of all that.
Sucrose fucked around with this message at 02:45 on Jun 15, 2014 |
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Jun 15, 2014 02:41
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Main Paineframe posted:Oh, there actually is literal "chain your employees to their workplace, then throw them into a locked trailer with armed guards at night" slavery occasionally, it's just a lot rarer than the type you're talking about because it's much harder to keep secret outside of rural nowhere and you have to spend a lot more money on chains, locks, and armed guards. It should further be noted that slaves themselves contributed enormously to converting the Union's war to an emancipatory war in addition to just a war for reunification. Enormous numbers of slaves deserted or took over plantations, wrecking the slave economy's infrastructure and making the abolition of slavery an economic reality in addition to a Union war policy. Hundreds of thousands of blacks, including northern free blacks but primarily ex-slaves, fought for the Union army and navy, comprising about 10% of the Union's manpower, and fought with great distinction. Further, important black figures like Frederick Douglass were very influential in pushing Lincoln and other Republicans away from gradual compensated emancipation and colonization and towards immediate abolition. The popular image of Lincoln as "the Great Emancipator" is historically flawed and denies agency and historical recognition to the massive struggle against slavery being conducted by American blacks during the period (which should not be confused with the reactionary slanders of Lincoln made to whitewash the CSA). E: Obviously, wage labor and modern capitalism are preferable to loving chattel slavery. The point that there is still massive amounts of inequality, racism, unfree labor, etc. today, however, is one worth making. "Better than chattel slavery" is not sufficient, and prison slavery, racism, and poverty all need to be fought. Rogue0071 fucked around with this message at 02:54 on Jun 15, 2014 |
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Jun 15, 2014 02:47
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Sucrose posted:Are people seriously wondering if the present status quo is better than literal chattel slavery? Guess what, back when there was chattel slavery there were still things like exploitation, debt slavery, racism, and discrimination, there were just human beings being openly sold in markets and transported in chains on top of all that. Yeah, if you time traveled a 1850s slave to the modern age, then told him that the present status quo was actually just as bad for him, he'd think you were the dumbest motherfucker alive.
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Jun 15, 2014 02:48
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New Division posted:Yeah, if you time traveled a 1850s slave to the modern age, then told him that the present status quo was actually just as bad for him, he'd think you were the dumbest motherfucker alive. What if you transported him to Angola, or Arpaio's tent city? Beatings don't leave as much of a mark I suppose.
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Jun 15, 2014 02:51
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#yesallwhites
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Jun 15, 2014 02:56
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Double post.
SMILLENNIALSMILLEN fucked around with this message at 03:57 on Jun 15, 2014 |
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Jun 15, 2014 02:56
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SedanChair posted:What if you transported him to Angola, or Arpaio's tent city? Because free blacks were never thrown in prison, beaten, or unjustly oppressed by white authorities in the 19th century. Don't get me wrong. If someone sat here and argued that the present explosion in the percentage of black males in prison is no better of a situation than how blacks as a whole were under the Jim Crow era, I would say that their argument has merit. But slavery? Give me a goddamn break. I suspect we could go back to Roman times and you'd argue human rights were no worse than they are today. Sucrose fucked around with this message at 03:42 on Jun 15, 2014 |
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Jun 15, 2014 03:36
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So your argument is that because in the 19th century the institution of chattel slavery rested atop everything like the crown jewel of ultimate racism, the state of racism is much better today? It's not like I can't see the argument. And of course prisons existed, and were in some senses more brutal and overt. But the modern prison state is much more comprehensive. In the old days, after you had served your sentence you could move to another area, change your name (or not) and begin again with as much of a chance as you ever had. Now that's impossible; modern identification and record-keeping ensure that you'll be a second-class citizen until your death. The situations are different enough that to call one better, worse or an improvement seems worthless to me. As westerners we seem to invest a lot in the idea that we're making progress, and that's not always the case. We're just changing.
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Jun 15, 2014 03:49
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MarksMan posted:Because up until about 1 year ago he was a completely different person. I have no idea what radicalized him, but he went from being normal and non-racial/non-political, to being a hardcore New BPP, "white devil hating" type poo poo. Then why hasn't he unfriended you yet? It doesn't make sense to me! It would be like if I went "Oh yeah, I'm 100% certain that my old buddy Bob would gladly rape me - or any other woman - if he thought he could get away with it, but I'm not unfriending him because of Reasons." Either he believes you're a would-be slaver and hates you or believes you're "one of the good ones" and likes you. Which is it? EDIT: And if he really does believe you're the white devil, then what are you getting out of the relationship? Why don't you sever? Pththya-lyi fucked around with this message at 04:14 on Jun 15, 2014 |
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Jun 15, 2014 04:12
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Sucrose posted:Is this guy under the illusion that anyone other than whites abolished slavery in the Western world in the first place? Without the african-american contribution to the union war effort, we would have lost the civil war 
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Jun 15, 2014 04:16
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Pththya-lyi posted:Then why hasn't he unfriended you yet? It doesn't make sense to me! It would be like if I went "Oh yeah, I'm 100% certain that my old buddy Bob would gladly rape me - or any other woman - if he thought he could get away with it, but I'm not unfriending him because of Reasons." Either he believes you're a would-be slaver and hates you or believes you're "one of the good ones" and likes you. Which is it? I think despite me being the white devil, the fact he knows I'm a medical MJ collective owner makes me a little less of a devil since he likes bud. We agreed on a lot of various things before he had this black awakening or whatever you want to call it. We also had a lot of similar things/events in our lives, which makes it that much more confusing...he's never directly called me a "devil" or talked down to me in particular, but when you are constantly degrading the white race as a whole, it's hard not to be offended. So, in short, he does not offend me personally and never is hostile or malicious towards me. I guess it's a good question why I don't un-friend him. I guess it's because, on some level, I like to be able to view a lot of different viewpoints on FB even if I don't agree with them.
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Jun 15, 2014 04:17
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MarksMan posted:I think despite me being the white devil, the fact he knows I'm a medical MJ collective owner makes me a little less of a devil since he likes bud. We agreed on a lot of various things before he had this black awakening or whatever you want to call it. We also had a lot of similar things in our lives, which makes it that much more confusing...he's never directly called me a "devil" or talked down to me in particular, but when you are constantly degrading the white race as a whole, it's hard not to be offended. Have you ever taken a look at what the white race has done? You should feel shame for being a part of that, even if you aren't actively part of the problem (spoiler alert, you are) Offended? Oh heavens deary me how dare they
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Jun 15, 2014 04:18
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MarksMan posted:I think despite me being the white devil, the fact he knows I'm a medical MJ collective owner makes me a little less of a devil since he likes bud. We agreed on a lot of various things before he had this black awakening or whatever you want to call it. We also had a lot of similar things/events in our lives, which makes it that much more confusing...he's never directly called me a "devil" or talked down to me in particular, but when you are constantly degrading the white race as a whole, it's hard not to be offended. So, in short, he does not offend me personally and never is hostile or malicious towards me. I guess it's a good question why I don't un-friend him. I guess it's because, on some level, I like to be able to view a lot of different viewpoints on FB even if I don't agree with them. sever
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Jun 15, 2014 04:20
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down with slavery posted:Have you ever taken a look at what the white race has done? You should feel shame for being a part of that, even if you aren't actively part of the problem (spoiler alert, you are) I don't see why I should feel ashamed for something that my family individually had no involvement in. It's a shame that it happened, but it's a shame the slave trade EVERYWHERE throughout time has happened. It's a shame there was slaves in Egypt, slaves in Africa, and slaves in various European parts. And, actually, no I am not offended.
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Jun 15, 2014 04:21
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 MarksMan posted:I think despite me being the white devil, the fact he knows I'm a medical MJ collective owner makes me a little less of a devil since he likes bud. We agreed on a lot of various things before he had this black awakening or whatever you want to call it. We also had a lot of similar things/events in our lives, which makes it that much more confusing...he's never directly called me a "devil" or talked down to me in particular, but when you are constantly degrading the white race as a whole, it's hard not to be offended. So, in short, he does not offend me personally and never is hostile or malicious towards me. I guess it's a good question why I don't un-friend him. I guess it's because, on some level, I like to be able to view a lot of different viewpoints on FB even if I don't agree with them. Can you post some of these statements? I wonder if you're not being a little oversensitive. woke wedding drone fucked around with this message at 04:25 on Jun 15, 2014 |
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Jun 15, 2014 04:22
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MarksMan posted:I am not offended. Your words, not mine. But yes, you should feel ashamed if your ancestors (and by extension you) have benefitted from it, which you still do as a white male in today's society. Welcome to 2014, enjoy your stay.
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Jun 15, 2014 04:23
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SedanChair posted:
I'm not one to be oversensitive about things like this. And no, I will not post more of his statements because: 1) I don't feel like going through his FB posts to find the applicable ones 2) I didn't make this thread to turn it into an analysis of whether the guy makes racial statements all the time MarksMan fucked around with this message at 04:37 on Jun 15, 2014 |
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Jun 15, 2014 04:26
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Of course you didn't make the thread for that purpose. You made it to selectively misrepresent your black friends in such a way that you thought goons would be bound to agree with you. e: VVV 
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Jun 15, 2014 04:28
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The irony of course being that he's a white business owner selling drugs for a living and his "friend" is a black customer
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Jun 15, 2014 04:28
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SedanChair posted:Of course you didn't make the thread for that purpose. You made it to selectively misrepresent your black friends in such a way that you thought goons would be bound to agree with you. Right, you got it figured out.
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Jun 15, 2014 04:35
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Post the full context of this guy's statements or yes, I do have it figured out. Has this guy ever even used the phrase "white devils" or is that just your creative summary of his beliefs?
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Jun 15, 2014 04:39
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Now all I can think of is "Pusherman" by Curtis Mayfield...
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Jun 15, 2014 04:40
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I just got a PM from the OP stating basically that he's from the one white family in the deep south that never benefited from racism. I wish I was joking.
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Jun 15, 2014 04:45
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SedanChair posted:I just got a PM from the OP stating basically that he's from the one white family in the deep south that never benefited from racism. Time to cue up "We Shall Overcome"!
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Jun 15, 2014 04:46
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SedanChair posted:I just got a PM from the OP stating basically that he's from the one white family in the deep south that never benefited from racism. Just for you, I'm finding the various comments he made and trying to paste them all together in Paint right now...I don't know why, but you seem to have just came out of the woodwork attacking me and whether what I'm saying is true? I don't understand it, but whatever. Here's what I sent to him: "My father came from a dirt poor family and picked cotton (literally, it was the field work available at the time) in 1950's Mississippi to help pay the bills for the family. He also walked in the Civil Rights march when it came through Jackson, MS in the 1960's, not a very popular thing for white's to do at the time I would imagine. He worked his rear end off in school and was doing biochemistry Ph.D. work when he was drafted in Vietnam. They said if he went to medical school and served as a doctor in the field when he was done, they would pay for it; so he did. So he became an M.D. and thankfully for him the war ended before he was done, so he still got it paid for. So, I don't think the little cartoon applies in this instance -- his family didn't get special treatment, he didn't get special treatment getting employment, and I moved out from my parents at 17 and have supported myself since (28 now). So I don't think the cartoon is really applicable, but I understand the general point you are making. I msg'ed this because I just didn't really feel like putting out a bunch of personal details about my dad for the world to see." You can take from that what you want, but it still means you weren't right trying to imply that I, as an individual, benefited directly from slavery? Since you had to bring up me sending you something directly, I decided to post it anyways. MarksMan fucked around with this message at 04:50 on Jun 15, 2014 |
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Jun 15, 2014 04:47
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Wow your Dad is a doctor and you don't think you're the recipient of privilege? Do you understand that JUST BEING WHITE is an advantage? That's what your friend is trying to explain to you. How can you have been given so much, surrounded by those who don't have the same, and yet be so ignorant of it. People like you blow my mind. down with slavery fucked around with this message at 04:52 on Jun 15, 2014 |
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Jun 15, 2014 04:50
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down with slavery posted:Wow your Dad is a doctor and you don't think you're the recipient of privilege? Do you understand that JUST BEING WHITE is an advantage? that's what your friend is trying to explain to you. Nevermind I'm not turning this into a thread about me. And he hasn't tried "explaining" anything to me? He never has addressed me directly about any of it; just general posts about white people in derogative connotations
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Jun 15, 2014 04:51
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MarksMan posted:Nevermind I'm not turning this into a thread about me Well it becomes a thread about you when you try to pretend like you didn't benefit from slavery when you're a the son of a doctor, business owner, white, male, living in the south, and sharing half of a facebook argument with the clear intent to make the other guy look bad. You've got your discussion now, challenge your viewpoints.
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Jun 15, 2014 04:53
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well this thread seems like it is going to be insightful and informative, rather than terrible in every regard, let me just post my opinion here *fart*
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Jun 15, 2014 04:53
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Come come, you said you would put up more of your friend's posts. I think you should. I want to see some of these "derogative connotations." e: use Social Fixer to anonymize posts if that'll help.
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Jun 15, 2014 04:54
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SedanChair posted:Come come, you said you would put up more of your friend's posts. I think you should. I want to see some of these "derogative connotations." Jesus Christ give me a minute...I wasn't just sitting here with them saved to clipboard.
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Jun 15, 2014 04:55
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MarksMan posted:They are under many delusions. We are the white devils. "We" are holding them back, "we" are supplying all the drugs in the hood, "we" want to keep them down and have vast, elaborate, long-ranging conspiracies to do so. MarksMan posted:Just for you, I'm finding the various comments he made and trying to paste them all together in Paint right now...I don't know why, but you seem to have just came out of the woodwork attacking me and whether what I'm saying is true? I don't understand it, but whatever. Everything your dad did would have been harder if he were black, conversely, it was easier because he was white. Also, you're really upset about how terrible it is that the plucky little white race is being misrepresented by those awful black facebook users. You should reflect on whether or not these feelings are impacting your ability to live your life and chill out before you start asking yourself "why isn't there a white history month."
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Jun 15, 2014 05:04
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Sharkie posted:Everything your dad did would have been harder if he were black, conversely, it was easier because he was white. Uhm, since when was I just "really upset?" I'm more upset that I find myself the one being attacked, but whatever. I think I am a pretty chill guy...my job pretty much requires it
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Jun 15, 2014 05:07
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They think I'm a devil! They think I sell drugs in the community, Black Dynamite! *empties mason jar of kind weed onto table* That'll be $474.80, bro.
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Jun 15, 2014 05:11
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SedanChair posted:They think I'm a devil! They think I sell drugs in the community, Black Dynamite! Apologies for not having these immediately available for your review, and I don't really know my way around Paint, but this was the best I could do to put together all of it in one image:  Why would I make up that he's calling me a "devil?" Do you really think I just sit around thinking of who doesn't like me and thinking black people are out to get me? You don't know me at all man...so I dunno whatever. I'm not going to go find more statements of his because it took enough drat time to piece all that poo poo together in one image. MarksMan fucked around with this message at 05:44 on Jun 15, 2014 |
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Jun 15, 2014 05:14
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SedanChair posted:OP, would whites re-institute slavery today if they could in as literal a manner as you intend the question, and in as literal a manner as you are capable of processing arguments? Of course not. Markets proved wage slavery to be generally superior to chattel slavery, which is why the South got all butthurt and started a terroristic civil war to begin with. A modest proportion of whites, when presented with black movements that were making headway, elected to join in rather than continuing to push back. I don't really see how you can deny LBJ some credit for some improvement. But pretty much every advancement in the treatment of black people has started with black action. Also, MarksMan, do you honestly think your father would have had comparable opportunities if he was black? Good on him for clawing his way up from poverty AND for not being a shithead, but I doubt there's a white man in this country that hasn't gotten better treatment than a black man in the same conditions would have. (I guess some weird hypothetical of a white guy in an almost entirely black community getting systematically poo poo on would qualify, but even then the reverse is way more common.) Heck, treatment of whites and blacks by the military in Vietnam wasn't even remotely comparable. Assuming your father were a black man coming out of Jackson, Mississippi doing biochemistry work in university well enough to make the recruiters give a poo poo, I wouldn't be at all certain that he'd get the same offer. Maybe they offer to pay part of his tuition, maybe his gumption and discipline get him work that lets him pay off his debt without trouble, maybe his customers (if private practice) or boss (if not) are as accommodating as the ones in this universe were and he doesn't lose money or advancement due to racist shitbags, maybe he manages to get the same good terms on a house despite rampant bank-centric racism. At which point you are a young black man moving out of your well-off father's house at 17, after a remarkably good upbringing for your demographic, endeavoring to support yourself in a country where a black man with a clean record has about the same hiring prospects as a white felon with the same skillset. Good luck. (This is a longer version than Sharkie, but it has some very brief mentions of examples in exactly why it sucks to be black in modern America and sucked even worse in many ways in past America, and ways in which it's nice to be white that white people don't even notice. Speaking as a white male, I highly recommend being a white male and recommend that everyone try it.)
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Jun 15, 2014 05:14
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Man, sounds like he's harder on black people to me. And I'm not seeing where he called you a devil, or all white people devils? He seemed mostly to be criticizing people who murder black folks, like Zimmerman. Don't murder anybody and I think you can keep on this guy's good side. That and keep selling him weed I guess. You're being oversensitive, you're not the first nor shall you be the last.
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Jun 15, 2014 05:18
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