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I received a state education in England without the Civil War ever being mentioned, I'm pretty sure! I still read and enjoyed Paradise Lost as a teenager. Anyway, has anyone ITT read Nightwood by Djuna Barnes? I picked it up because I heard it described as a forgotten modernist classic by a female author, and a trailblazing work of lesbian literature to boot. Sounds pretty good, right? It's not a long book (151 pages), but my foray into it has stalled on about page 50. It doesn't help that it contains bursts of anti-semitism (my edition has a foreword by T.S. Eliot that I'm side-eying pretty hard right now), but in general I'm finding the prose overwrought and incomprehensible. Barnes seems to be writing from within a set of cultural assumptions that I just can't get my head around. Beyond the basic events of the plot, I'm finding it really hard to figure out what she's going on about a lot of the time, or how one sentence relates to the next. Here's a sample paragraph in which a character named Felix meets a woman for the first time. Can anyone made heads or tails of this? Is it just me?? quote:The woman who presents herself to the spectator as a 'picture' forever arranged, is, for the contemplative mind, the chiefest danger. Sometimes one meets a woman who is beast turning human. Such a person's every movement will reduce to an image of a forgotten experience; a mirage of an eternal wedding cast on the racial memory; as insupportable a joy as would be the vision of an eland coming down an aisle of trees, chapleted with orange blossoms and bridal veil, a hoof raised in the economy of fear, stepping in the trepidation of flesh that will become myth; as the unicorn is neither man nor beast deprived, but human hunger pressing its breast to its prey. Some of it has a hammy kind of charm and sonority, like "the converging halves of a broken fate" but for the most part I'm stumped. I guess I just wondered if anyone else had read this book, and had any tips?
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Dec 1, 2021 20:32
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Nitevision posted:I read it like 8 years ago and liked it, OP. Think of it like a long poem Fair. I mean, I like a lot of strange and obscure poetry that I often don't understand. But... not this. I guess you either intuitively latch onto something and are intrigued by it, or, you bounce off it. Oh well. Knowing me, I'll probably pick it up again in 10 years and love it. apophenium posted:I finished The Morning Star by Karl Ove Knausgaard and would like to recommend it I read a review of this that sounded like my kind of thing. I might have to check it out. Coincidentally I'm about halfway through my first Knausgaard right now, A Time for Everything, after I picked it up in a bookshop and was totally swept up by the opening pages. It starts out as a kind of treatise about angels and their changing relationship with humanity, treating them as if they were unambiguously real creatures, and examining Biblical anecdotes and Renaissance artworks as if they were historical sources. Then it segues into long retellings of stories from Genesis - first Cain and Abel, and now I'm midway through Noah's Ark - but sort of superimposed into a rural Northern European setting in what feels like the nineteenth century. It keeps going down strange by-roads (I'm currently in the middle of a long flashback about Noah's sister's boyfriend) and I have no idea what it's all leading to, but I'm enjoying it quite a lot. Lots of fun with form, and the prose kinda reminds me of Ishiguro in the way it maintains an evenness, a blandness, even a deliberate dullness, although the things it describes might violent, dramatic or bizarre. It works for me. It's sort of hypnotic.
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Dec 3, 2021 17:22
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Can we talk about poetry ITT? I've been reading a collection of John Donne's Holy Sonnets and assorted other ecclesiastical poems, some of which I'd read before, some of which were new to me. It's great fun. I like a lot of metaphysical poetry, although I usually have to take it in doses. it trades in wildly elaborate, far-fetched, strained and surprising images. They're delightful when they hit right (e.g. Donne's secular poem "A Valediction: Forbidding Mourning", which is just brilliant), but when they don't, it can all feel a little abstract, over-considered, quite distant from genuine human thoughts and feelings. But anyway, this mostly the good stuff. Here's a fine example of a holy sonnet which is packed with character and drama: quote:Oh, to vex me, contraryes meet in one: The inventiveness of some of the poems can read as kind of demented when they're all on the same subject. Like, all of this imaginative energy is obsessively being poured into finding strange and new-fangled metaphoric approaches to Christ, often in morbid or gory ways. It's Christ everywhere, streaming blood, suffering, dying, in a million different ways. There's a poem, "The Crosse", in which he exhorts believers to bear the Cross always in mind, everywhere, in all things. If The Cross is inaccessible in churches (it sounds like he's referencing some specific scandal of the Reformation but I dunno), well, who cares: quote:Who can deny mee power, and liberty He then progresses from outward to inward cross-mania, encouraging us to put crosses on each of our as well, so as to correct ourselves before speaking, in the most weird and wonderful image: quote:And as the braine through bony walls doth vent I love it. It feels very Elizabethan, that inclusion of difficult or unsavoury images - fantastic agues and leaking brains. That's much more interesting to me than poetry that's always trying to be pretty.
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Feb 17, 2022 13:55
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It paints a bleak picture of human sexual and romantic relations, but this seems like a reasonable interpretation to me? Nabokov is suggesting that we all, to a certain extent, become like Humbert Humbert when we desire another person, because the act of desire inescapably involves objectifying and dehumanising the person towards whom it is directed. On some deep level, even a consensual relationship involves a kind of wilful blindness and selfishness. That's part of the horror of the book. Isn't it? The reviewer isn't saying "fellas, we've all been there, am i rite" On the other hand, I dunno if I agree that there's an implication HH implying secretly murdered Charlotte, precisely because he's so happy to admit his desperate willingness to do it, his immediate consideration of murder as an option in other situations, and his successful murder of Quilty. So why would he feel the need to lie?
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Jun 3, 2022 23:58
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derp posted:does it??? Maybe!!! Like, I'm not saying that anyone who fancies anyone is Literally As Bad As Humbert Humbert. I'm just saying it doesn't seem wild to read Lolita as being, on some level, a dark parable. Many people can balance their own desires with respect for the autonomy of others. On the other hand, look around: many people - particularly men - can't, or anyway don't. Heath posted:Recall that this memoir is being addressed to a jury. HH doesn't need to lie about killing Quilty -- that murder was a crime of passion, and the victim was a predator and child pornographer who snatched Lolita away, and he deserved what he got. It's sympathetic in that way. Admitting to killing Charlotte is less so, since she is fully innocent. Ah, fair enough. Maybe I'm too credulous! I'll have to read it again sometime with this idea in mind.
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Jun 4, 2022 12:15
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I'm a page late but Antony and Cleopatra rules. My hot Shakespeare take is that the "big four" are Hamlet, Macbeth, King Lear and Antony and Cleopatra. Othello is overrated and doesn't really work. I read William Faulkner's As I Lay Dying and it was extremely good. It was a bit of a tough and tiring read (don't think it held that my e-book copy had some formatting issues), but after I finished I immediately went back and read the first third of it again, now I was oriented in the the story and the characters, and it was pure pleasure the second time round. I'm going to move on to The Sound and the Fury soon. I also read Gabriel Garcia Marquez's Memories of My Melancholy Whores, and, uh, that was a book. Very slim and definitely second-tier Garcia Marquez, but still with lots of the incidental delights you'd expect from his prose. Very creepy central premise, however. I couldn't get a grip on the book's perspective on it, and would be interested to hear from anyone else who has read it. I feel like the novel regards the situation as pathetic and sad, but ultimately it carries the possibility of redemption. Whereas I was just like "this is an incredibly gross sex crime, no thank you." And the novel didn't seem to fully realise that, if that makes sense? Finally, I recommend the latest Lauren Groff, Matrix. Fictionalised story of a 12th-century royal bastard who becomes prioress and then abbess of a dilapidated abbey which has fallen on hard times, and she turns its fortunes around. It's a deliberately idealised vision which still has enough shadows to keep it interesting. Its "misfit but omni-competent" protagonist"and present-tense narration felt indebted to Wolf Hall in some ways, although it's aiming for a different kind of revisionism.
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Sep 13, 2022 11:43
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blue squares posted:Hamnet, by Maggie O'Farrell, is miraculously good. Not only was the prose some of the most beautiful I have ever read, but the emotional impact of the book was so powerful. It actually made me cry twice Don’t read The Marriage Portrait, except for one paragraph about a tiger it’s extremely bad
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Dec 23, 2022 13:28
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That’s weird, I literally just finished that book too. I enjoyed it a lot while reading it, although I’m not sure what it all added up to. I don’t know if Murdoch knew either? The postscript felt sort of like she was casting about for a way to wrap it up and explain the point. However still a very fun read. Compelling story and lots of main characters. Quite a few crazy coincidences but she mostly made them work. I was hooting when the eleventh-hour tibetan psychic powers plot twist shows up. I would definitely read more Murdoch* *i read An Accidental Man like a decade ago and don’t remember much except one desperately sad bit at the end, and one bit where a character is unexpectedly swooped on by an owl
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Feb 4, 2023 17:54
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Would love to hear what you think of the Zora neale Hurston, I’ve read others by her that I really enjoyed but not that one.
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Feb 6, 2023 12:20
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A few more: The Mennonite near the start of BM echoes Elijah in Moby dick The whale and the judge are big white beings and each book declines to make them tidily symbolic of one thing in particular Ahab: “Talk not to me of blasphemy, man; I'd strike the sun if it insulted me” Glanton: “be his charter written in the urstone itself he claimed agency and said so and he’d drive the remorseless sun on to its final endarkenment as if he’d ordered it all ages since” More generally, BM is kind of a gorgeous mystery to me on many levels, but I guess each book is about a motley gang of Americans rampaging across a vast landscape and despoiling it/slaughtering its inhabitants for profit. BM I guess is about violent struggle as the core of human existence, and ahab in Moby dick taking a defiantly ego-driven and antagonistic stance to the universe, being dumb and self-centred enough to look upon the natural world as a contest of wills with you on one side and all created things on the other Lobster Henry fucked around with this message at 22:55 on Jul 20, 2023 |
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Jul 20, 2023 21:38
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a_gelatinous_cube posted:I think there is a pretty good juxtaposition of the setting of the books too. In Moby Dick I think the boundary between the surface the characters travel and the ocean depths below is a dividing line between the unknowable mysteries or the human mind and the universe itself which the characters are enamored by but can never cross to find the truth. In Blood Meridian the ocean has been transformed to a vast desert. It's a two-dimensional space blasted by the light of the sun for everyone to see. It's the human psyche laid flat and bare to see, brutal and violent with no depth to explore. The universe is cruel and there is no mystery about it. Ooh I like this reading a lot. It ties in nicely with what I think is the big point of divergence between the two books: the garrulous, slightly mysterious, highly charming and personable style of Ishmael, full of depths and opinions and individuality; versus the brutal blank slate of the kid. The only sliver of interiority he gets is awkwardly imposed on him from outside - the judge’s line at the end about the clemency in his heart. All that connects well with Tree Goat’s post too.
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Jul 20, 2023 23:00
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Browning’s dramatic monologues rule, shout-out to “caliban upon setebos” and the under-appreciated “mr sludge, the medium” I’ve had the ring and the book open in my tabs for like two months, maybe this is the spur I need to finally get to it
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Jul 29, 2023 22:20
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City of glass rules but I read it pretty young so that’s probably not an objective take or whatever. I also remember leviathan being fun. Nothing else from the auster oeuvre really stands out.
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Aug 2, 2023 19:48
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What do people think of Conrad? I just reread Lord Jim and read Victory for the first time. I don’t begrudge anybody who wants to throw him on the dustbin of history for being an appallingly racist shithead, but if you do feel able to set that aside, these books are both fascinating character studies, exquisitely told and structured. Lord Jim especially. It’s like a solid Victorian novel is cracking open and all this darkness and weirdness and uncertainty is starting to seep out and corrupt everything. I remember that nostromo is also a truly incredible book… with a crummy ending. E: also they’re cool adventure stories with outlaws, intrigue and murder Lobster Henry fucked around with this message at 13:59 on Aug 3, 2023 |
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Aug 3, 2023 12:50
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CestMoi posted:i feel like conrad is surprisingly not racist, to me, particularly in lord jim, he's clearly trying to overcome those sorts of boundaries in his thought far more so than his contemporaries. anyway, i kind of like lord jim even though i feel it takes forever to get going, and i find it very funny that the complexity of jim as a person, his way of thinking, his drives is just being told to you by some guy who's mostly guessing. it's a funny way to do a character study. i thought the secret agent was cool too, though i would've preferred a more orthodox marxist critique of anarchism. Oh definitely, it’s not cut and dried. Lord Jim and other books for sure are interrogating/satirising the colonial mentality. But then you also have parts of heart of darkness, or eg the character pedro in victory, where it seems like Conrad can’t find words to express the depth of his visceral repugnance and contempt. I wanted to put it out there as an earnest disclaimer because I imagine it can be off putting to see people come into a public forum and lavish unqualified praise on a writer like Conrad and not mention these aspects of his work. I love it when Conrad’s stories are told by Marlowe or another narrator, puzzling it over and, as you say, guessing. I can’t quite put my finger on the effect. It’s like the character is becoming slightly mythic, or an exemplar or symbol of something mysterious, and the narrator just can’t stop proving the mystery. IDK, it works great I blanked on the secret agent but that one also rules
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Aug 3, 2023 15:18
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Middlemarch isn’t personally my kind of thing — there’s a little bit too much “tea with the vicar”/gossiping about marriage-prospects type stuff for my taste—but nevertheless it is really well done. She has a real gift for characterisation. The sisters do leap off the page straight away, and I like how you think for a moment it’s a portrait of “virtue” vs “frivolousness” or whatever, but it starts getting more complicated right away, and in a comic way too
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Aug 6, 2023 08:58
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I read Human Acts by Han kang, like someone else in this thread I think, I didn’t know anything about the historical events this novel is based on, and I found it very moving, frightening, and humbling to think about them. However as a novel I thought this was a complete slog. I really couldn’t get on with it at all. The place, the situation, the people — none of them were evoked in a way that brought them to life for me. Oh well. I also read warlock by Oakley hall, which is a western that is available in a NYRB edition and was named one of the great American books by Thomas Pynchon, so it has Literary Cred. And it rules. It delivers all the Western goods (outlaws, showdowns, etc) but it has excellent lucid style and it’s structured as a complicated series of interlocking moral quandaries. There’s a big cast of characters and everybody gets compromised or stuck in agonising ways. Very well done imo. I also recently read welcome to hard times by EL Doctorow which is another literary western. And obviously there’s cormac McCarthy. If anybody’s got more, let me know!
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Aug 29, 2023 13:04
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Ragtime is an old favourite of mine, I think for sheer energy and pleasure in a narrative it’s tough to brag. However I’ve heard “plays it safe” before, so your mileage may vary. Billy Bathgate is a fun gangster story which, like welcome to hard times, is elevated by doctorow’s excellent craftsmanship. I read the march recently and I thought it was solid, a good read, especially the parts that focused on Sherman himself. You could do much worse as literary fiction goes!
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Aug 29, 2023 19:03
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A human heart posted:absalom absalom is exceptionally sick and everyone can read the insanely long sentences about the doom of the south, if you use your brain hmm, tough one A human heart posted:and believe in yourself Ok, I’m out
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Sep 1, 2023 14:17
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PlushCow posted:I love Warlock, I need to read it again. Have you read Lonesome Dove by Larry McMurtry? Also maybe check out The Sisters Brothers by Patrick deWitt, and though likely familiar from the movies, True Grit by Charles Portis is worth a read. Thanks for the recommendations! “True grit” and “the sisters brothers” I have read, although I guess they slipped my mind. “Lonesome dove” I have heard of but I don’t know anything about it. I’ll add it to the list!
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Sep 6, 2023 22:50
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Thanks for the continuing western recs folks! Picnic at hanging rock rules Elspeth barker sounds interesting, I’m gonna check that out. I recently picked up the second ferrante at a second hand book stall. I enjoyed the first one a lot, but I don’t really remember much about it beyond “Naples, two girls, they’re friends.” Do you think I’ll be ok with the second one or do I need to restart?
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Sep 17, 2023 22:10
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“After Leaving Mister Mackenzie” by Jean Rhys is short, sharp, sad and really good. I gotta reread “Wide Sargasso Sea” But I will never read any of these literary western recommendations I’ve solicited, because I’ve started “Jerusalem” and that’ll keep me occupied…. forever?
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Sep 29, 2023 18:34
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Ended up rereading Wuthering Heights and I’ve found a good band name: The Terrible Intimation of Kenneth
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Oct 6, 2023 17:56
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Wolf Hall is extremely good. Lincoln in the Bardo too obvs. I didn’t really get the hype for Shuggie Bain. I think that’s the most recent winner I’ve read.
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Oct 13, 2023 19:09
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The Secret History rules. I wish thrillers as absorbing and intelligently done were a dime a dozen, but they definitely are not. The middle book doesn’t really work, alas. I never read the Goldfinch cos I never met anyone who liked it.
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Oct 13, 2023 20:28
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I’m midway through Butcher’s Crossing. drat, it’s really good!
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Oct 25, 2023 22:35
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Gaius Marius posted:drat, strong opinions on an intersection. Let us know when you get across. I’m across, it’s over, Butcher’s Crossing is behind me. drat, it was really good! Someone at work is lending me Stoner and I’ve got my eye on Augustus too. I love a bit of historical fiction when it’s done well.
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Oct 27, 2023 14:51
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Good War and Peace thoughts. I wish I had enjoyed it as much as you but to my shame I really struggle with those gigantic Russian novels. The short stories are more my speed. I remember being frustrated with W&P and reading someone who said that the book works because everyone who reads it falls in love with Natasha. But I found her pretty irritating and, more to the point, not a persuasive representation of a person. It felt like Tolstoy had pioneered in inventing the Manic Pixie Dream Girl 150 years too early. Some of the battlefield stuff has really stuck with me, though, particularly how Tolstoy captures these proud young soldiers happily charging into battle for the glory of the fatherland, and then their minds basically breaking in two because they can’t deal with the sudden, surreal reality of chaos everywhere and people - strangers! - actually trying to kill them. Very powerful and memorable.
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Oct 31, 2023 11:53
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I hope I'm not anti-intellectual, but these days I'm pretty to admit that obscure or superficially "difficult" literature isn't really for me. I like ambiguities and challenges in, say, morality or character. But I'm not up for really wild stylistic adventures, or, in particular, what I would call virtuosity for its own sake. Somebody like Joyce is a mixed bag for me. Pynchon, honestly, I find insufferable. It's all puzzles and clever-cleverness, but emotionally pretty shallow and adolescent, imo. Each to their own, though, and I can't certainly argue that obscurity and difficulty of various kinds aren't legitimate artistic tools. There is a certain type who takes a kind of macho pleasure in seeking out the longest, hardest, most obscure and incomprehensible books, and "conquering" them. They talk about it like slogging across an exhausting mountain range. Which I would happily do! But in literature, no thanks - it's just not my kind of thing. Dumb opinion alert. Faulkner is obviously a genius, but some of his difficulty does feel a bit like a put-on, like an artificial barrier imposed to seem impressive, or to make the story more worthwhile because you have to work to sort it out in your head. There's maybe a kind of macho element to that as well. Personally, I think the material is impressive enough in its own right, and sometimes I wish he would present it a bit more straightforwardly. I really don't think it would diminish the power of it. But that's just me.
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Nov 2, 2023 12:28
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thehoodie posted:if you think pynchon is emotionally shallow i would recommend reading mason and dixon. it's one of the most genuine stories of fraternal love i've read I should. I’ve heard people say that mason & Dixon is the one that changed their minds, and it’s Pynchon for people who don’t ordinarily like Pynchon. But I’ve already given him three chances and life is short!! Maybe someday though.
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Nov 2, 2023 18:32
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Returning to good books and not Pynchon (who is bad), I recently enjoyed The Corner That Held Them, a 1948 novel by Sylvia Townsend Warner about life in a medieval nunnery over a long-ish stretch of time. Various historical events intrude more or less obliquely, including the Black Death and the Peasants' Rebellion, but for the most part its a pretty low-key slice-of-life novel which ambles along. The stakes are everyday, unimportant things like happiness, love, and job satisfaction. Someone on Goodreads kind of beautifully described it as a bunch of characters who come to the verge of being protagonists in a novel with strong character arcs and significant changes, and then lapse back into their everyday mediocre bubbling along. The person on Goodreads phrased it better. Anyway, it is a good book. I'm also most of the way through CivilWarLand in Bad Decline, the last George Saunders collection on my list. Christ, some of these stories pack a punch! He is so good at exploiting the gap between, like, chirpy euphemistic HR-speak and the human suffering of degrading labour or loss of income. And (I guess its his Buddhist side) at conveying how we are all trapped in little, pathetic, self-absorbed cycles of our own ever-recurring anxieties and ridiculous hopes and dreams, and how hard it is to break out into moments of genuine empathy and connection.
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Nov 2, 2023 18:40
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I’m happy to concede that Pynchon is a phenomenal prose stylist, which is why it makes me sad that I don’t enjoy him. however, anyone who laughs at all the zaniness, wacky character names and irritating song pastiches should have a v2 rocket dropped on their head I make only one exception and it’s the bit in lot 49 when he rhymes “periscope’ll” with “Constantinople”. Highlight of the book, right there.
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Nov 3, 2023 20:01
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a.p. dent posted:My husband and I have been listening to audiobooks instead of watching tv because there's nothing good on streaming. It's been great. We've been working through a bunch of Kazuo Ishiguro's books - so far Klara and the Sun and Never Let Me Go, partway through Remains of the Day now. Klara was my favorite so far. I enjoy his naive narrators and simple prose That’s interesting, I thought Klara was sort of mid-level Ishiguro, but I read it last out of all of them, so that may skew things. I’d like to revisit it someday. I’m extremely fond of The Buried Giant. It didn’t seem very popular and some people bounced right off the fantasy trappings, but I think it’s really interesting, very moving in the final stretch, and strikes a very strange and unique tone that can’t have been easy to pull off.
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Nov 7, 2023 14:54
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If anyone, like me, is having a slow day at work, I recommend that you read, like me, “Mysterious Kor”, a short story by Elizabeth Bowen. It’s easy to find online. Here are the opening two paragraphs to hook you in:quote:Full moonlight drenched the city and searched it; there was not a niche left to stand in. The effect was remorseless: London looked like the moon's capital—shallow, cratered, extinct. It was late, but not yet midnight; now the buses had stopped the polished roads and streets in this region sent for minutes together a ghostly unbroken reflection up. The soaring new flats and the crouching old shops and houses looked equally brittle under the moon, which blazed in windows that looked its way. The futility of the black-out became laughable: from the sky, presumably, you could see every slate in the roofs, every whited kerb, every contour of the naked winter flowerbeds in the park; and the lake, with its shining twists and tree-darkened islands would be a landmark for miles, yes, miles, overhead.
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Nov 9, 2023 13:36
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This is pretty woolly, but imo there is some basic warmth and humanism about The Big Lebowski that Pynchon for the most part lacks. Maybe it’s even just at the level of performances and production, but it is there. It’s not that Pynchon isn’t capable of moments of human resonance. Off the top of my head I can think of the banana breakfast at the very start of GR, or the vision of people praying in church all over England, or various moments of down-and-out paranoid desolation. But the other stuff distracts from it too much. It’s just… games, at great length. Hundreds of pages of Slothrop dodging custard pies and having sex with interchangeable teen-boy-fantasy women with hilarious names and, like, that poo poo is tedious to me. Anyway! I’m midway through Augustus and so far it’s a very enjoyable political thriller and examination of how power corrupts (have you heard?). I like Shakespeare’s Roman plays and I like high-level backstabbing so this is my sort of thing. It’s also fascinatingly different in style and subject matter from Butcher’s Crossing. I’d never have guessed it was the same writer.
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Nov 10, 2023 11:24
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Me at the beginning of one of Ferrante’s Neapolitan novels: hmm, seems a little “gossipy”, lots of relationship drama, I dunno Me at the end of one of Ferrante’s Neapolitan novels: gently caress….. gently caress!! Lila 😭
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Nov 17, 2023 12:23
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3D Megadoodoo posted:100 Years or one of the good ones? Woah woah woah woah woah Woah Let’s settle down here, no need to get carried away
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Nov 20, 2023 13:41
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Sounds like it would’ve been better for everyone if they’d stuck to reading 40k novels. Another clear victory for genre lit.
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Nov 20, 2023 16:53
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Many years later, as he faced the Chaos Space Marine Obliterators, Primach Roboute Guilliman would remember that distant afternoon when the Emperor of Mankind, donator of his transhuman gene-stock template, took him to discover ice.
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Nov 20, 2023 17:48
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| # ¿ May 5, 2024 21:35 |
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pixel bitches posted:But ice is amazing It’s not as good as ice-nine
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Nov 20, 2023 18:06
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