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Borneo Jimmy posted:Reminds me of this essay I think this sets up a view of literary fiction that is skewed. First of all, the concept of literary fiction in publishing is no less a genre or mode of writing than, say, fantasy, and on that I agree with the article. In my opinion though the distinction is about as useful as saying 'good books' and 'bad books' are a genre (possibly because it's a distinction mainly from publishers and not from academics, as far as I can see). Literary somehow carries connotations of deep and the moment you have a writer who writes in a 'literary fiction' mode but isn't saying anything particularly novel or interesting (cough Ian McEwan) what does that tell us about the genre? But in a lot of ways there is anxiety about 'boundary-pushing' (read: being difficult) that is wider than publishing circles. In Britain at least the world of 'literary fiction' is very bland and safe as far as I can see it, as Boatswain also mentioned above. Extreme caution on the part of publishers over here means that prize-winning books aren't really things worthy of great renown or brimming with experimental vigour, with a few exceptions, and yet people who read seem quite content with the way books are at the moment. Blurred's comment above really strikes home for me that there are a good chunk of people who aren't critical enough, or at least whose criticisms are too superficial. I might be entirely in the wrong here but it seems to me they're echoing what is really a majority view on what people consider to be good qualities in a novel. Who needs a reader's manifesto when readers show they want to stay within comfortable bounds – and they get what they want? Writers really need to say 'gently caress it, I'll be pretentious and self-indulgent if I want to be, thank you very much.' The written word excels when it pulls you up short, and comfort and safety don't deliver that. Art is a compromise anyway between artist and whoever's receiving it, and maybe the balance is off. 
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Sep 17, 2014 16:24
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Ignoring the sonnets with Shakespeare is a poor move, but I agree that it's poo poo behaviour to just lump people with the burden of "oh, to really understand Literaturrrre you have to have read all of them". But yeah, sonnets. Otto von Ruthless posted:Yes, you are going to miss something because you haven't read everything important that came before yet - but think of it more like building a web of associations. I don't think you have to be entirely linear here. Everything can always be re-read. The more you read, the more sense you will have of where you could go next, and you'll find that this is essentially a never ending process, the list of what you should read next will always grow and never shrink. This is a good point, there is never an end point when it comes to literature (or indeed any kind of knowledge). Nor indeed is there a moment where a lightbulb just clicks on and you are suddenly Well-Read and a Person of Letters. Giving people a list like Bloom's has a weakness in this regard in that it seems to give the impression that this is the baseline that literally everyone who is cleverer than you is at, and I can't see that leading to a particularly constructive way of reading in general.
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Oct 2, 2014 13:51
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Smoking Crow posted:I don't think that "He was sad." is a bad sentence out of context. True. It's one of those sentences that only a confident writer can get away with. It's not as if it can never be deployed effectively, but in the hands of a less experienced writer it's a crutch to rely on, which is why they're taught to avoid it. Not that I've read the book in question, though, it could well have been particularly poor in that passage. That said, and vaguely related to what I was talking about, I do think it's better a writer sticks to a style they are comfortable with, and that is more authentic to them, rather than adhering too strictly to a stylistic guideline. It's very plainly obvious when someone has been writing to the whims of a creative writing forum. Life's too short to 'show don't tell' all the drat time. I just need to vent because thanks to the internet we have a sizeable number of people who seem to think style is reducible to a formula to be applied for optimum efficiency of Literary Value Attainment, measured in KiloHemingways or Orwells. Thankfully that attitude's not in evidence in this thread.
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Oct 13, 2014 08:29
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amuayse posted:I'm starting to try and get a crack at the Mabinogion again. Anyone know a good translation for it? Sioned Davies' translation for Oxford World's Classics was fine for me.
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Oct 15, 2014 16:48
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amuayse posted:Thanks for that. I'm amused that Tolkein Honestly, if you enjoy Tolkien, pretty much all of medieval British & Irish literature is a goldmine for those moments where you go 'huh, this sounds familiar'. The films have given him a lot of credibility among this generation which can only be an exciting thing for medievalists, imo. But yeah, the Mabinogion is some of the most imaginative literature I've ever read. It's great stuff, I'd heartily recommend it.
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Oct 17, 2014 01:08
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Just asking JackKnight, what makes you want to read these books? Quite honestly you shouldn't feel as if you're reading the Wrong Type of Book if you're getting out of it what you want. That said, if you want to broaden your palette, I can't recommend medieval literature enough, especially if you have interest in fantasy. Plenty of good translations are available that make that first plunge easier. You would be surprised how much these stories resonate, especially if you're into '''''genre fiction'''''. My recommendations are mainly related to British medieval literature, because that's what I assume you'll find easiest (it's also what I know the most), but there is so much stuff out there in Europe alone to explore that's equally good. Old Norse - The Poetic Edda is a great source of Norse mythology, which is tons of fun. Anglo-Saxon - Beowulf is good fun. Welsh - The Mabinogion (mentioned above) is excellent, and definitely underrated. Middle English - Sir Gawain and the Green Knight, which is probably my favourite poem of all time. If you're going to read it, definitely get the Simon Armitage translation. This is obviously nowhere near close to comprehensive, but I can't be bothered, and you've had loads of good recommendations already.
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Oct 21, 2014 17:58
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JackKnight posted:I need to exercise my brain ... I assume I still have the neurological plasticity needed to memorize large amounts of content, but it may take some effort as I haven't memorized anything since I stopped playing piano. :-) For memory, there's nothing better than poetry. Don't memorise all of Hamlet, you have absolutely nothing to gain compared to the vast effort that would require. The soliloquies, sure, why not - it's some of the finest poetry in the English language, and meditation on their contents is in my opinion very much worthwhile. But the play as a whole isn't merely a neurological equivalent of weightlifting. Nor indeed is literature in general, but whatever. Regarding your qualms about modern language, I think African American Vernacular English has a very rich potential, despite it being what many snobs would deem as a bastardisation of Our Beautiful Language (ya feel me?) - we still live in an age, just like any other really, where the most ordinary language can be manipulated to make something brilliant. Linguistic invention is what happens a lot in great literature, not some reflection of how people always spoke in some golden age. To take Hamlet as an example, it would have been seen as particularly difficult language even in Shakespeare's day. No doubt technology has democratised language use considerably (Newspapers regulate how people write, TV flattens out regional dialects, the radio meant politicians could no longer speak to people of similar circumstances - print indeed ushered in an age of individualised reading that completely ruined the need for oral literature along with increased literacy - if you want people to have a better memory, bring back widespread oral literature!), but it's not in my opinion necessarily a bad thing, or at least I'm not that anxious about it. As long as artists and writers exist, we'll get new, challenging things. I'm not disagreeing of course that more challenging material won't necessarily bring the benefits you're looking for, so definitely go ahead with the recommendations you've received. They'll also bring other benefits, as well, better ones in my view.
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Oct 24, 2014 13:32
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Ras Het posted:Correct me if I'm wrong, but this doesn't actually happen. I'm pretty sure it's been shown that mass media exposure to different dialects doesn't actually cause any particular spread of those dialects. Vocabulary, sure, but that's different. I think I probably worded this poorly. I was under the impression that TV is a 'great' way of making the regional more like the standard and normative. What I had in mind is the gradual disappearance of Sicilian dialects for a northernised Italian. Not really that important in the context of this conversation though.
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Oct 24, 2014 18:14
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O litty peeps of litty brains so full Impart thy wisdom, bring me knowledge deep So that I may embiggenate my skull With Words to make the plebs fall fast asleep JackKnight, read literature for the profound insights, for the people and places of interest and for the artistic mastery, not for your personal superiority. It's painfully clear you're simply arrogant and young, with little insight into the infinite richness of everyone's constitutions, which gives you an illusion of higher status, and that with little other evidence to show for your blatant betterness, you plan to spew Elizabethan English in a lofty tone to prove yourself. Well don't. Authors put too much work, critics too much reading time, for the vast world of reading to be reduced to a boring ego-boost. If you do actually start reading and taking in those various recommendations we gave you, you'll realise that.
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Oct 25, 2014 12:52
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Travic posted:
Who's to say the author isn't making an interpretation? I'm afraid all you're left with are more or less convincing interpretations. Maybe the teacher was trying to get you to form an argument based on textual evidence, as they tend to at school level. But yeah, read The Odyssey if you like adventures, The Iliad if you like war. You've had loads of good suggestions. If I might add an easy translation of The Canterbury Tales like Peter Ackroyd's latest version, because they're great fun as stories. Hardly a version a lit prof would recommend, but if you're just after the stories, knock yourself out. I just hate this idea that in order to be 'cultured' you have to punish yourself, and then people get annoyed that they aren't enjoying themselves. Put in the effort where required, yeah sure, but only do it if you want to.
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Nov 20, 2014 16:07
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Who's to say my interpretation is incorrect?
The author?
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Travic posted:
Then read their argument and argue against it? If their interpretation isn't convincing, then show why - it's not as if there is anyone who would say an abundance of interpretations means every interpretation is equally sound or convincing. Also, a lot of authors are dead. Can't dig up Virgil and ask him whether Eclogue 4 is actually about Jesus' resurrection, like medieval theologians wanted to say. To make a convincing biographical/intent-based interpretation you have to have a LOT of contextual information that itself needs further interpreting. Furthermore, the business of 'doing' literary analysis is something that people, this thread included (probably), find fun. When I read Ulysses I like all the connections I can make with the word 'key' or 'potato' in the novel (seriously try it), and it's great fun to interact with something in the way you're thinking of. It's not necessarily saying x = y or whatever, sometimes it's simply asking the question "What is this text doing?" and that throws up a lot of different answers, and types of answers, than "the colour of the room = his mood". Basically, not to be rude, but you have a very limited conception of what people in this thread are doing and finding enjoyable when they read books.
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Nov 20, 2014 17:18
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jonnykungfu posted:
Oblomov by Ivan Goncharov? It is commonly considered to be a satire on Russian aristocracy and a general kind of Russian attitude to fate and life. It's also got bleak in spades, because it's basically about a guy who just stays in bed. Sebadoh Gigante posted:Is there a word to describe someone who is an adherent of scientism? Obviously it wouldn't be 'scientist'. Dorkins?
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Dec 9, 2014 04:12
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Darnielle also wrote a novella for the 33 1/3 series based on Black Sabbath's Master of Reality.
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Dec 9, 2014 16:36
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Falstaff Infection posted:
Don't you think there are weird parallels with Arrested Development? Or am I alone in that one? Also, seconding the As I Lay Dying recommendation. I'd venture it's even better.
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Dec 23, 2014 01:42
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CestMoi posted:I'm reading The Life and Opinions of Tristram Shandy, Gentleman by Laurence Stern and the fact that this book was written in the mid 1700s is incredible. 40 pages in and he keeps getting distracted from narrating his birth, he almost started writing about his baptism then remembered that he'd need to be born before he was baptised, then in the next chapter berated the reader for not reading closely enough to realise that his mother couldn't possibly be Catholic, because Catholics have devised a method for baptising in the womb by squirting water on the foetus. Laurence Sterne is utterly incredible. I genuinely think he's one of Britain's absolute best novelists. Tristram Shandy is very difficult though, I read A Sentimental Journey after attempting TS for the first time and a lot more of TS made sense after it. It's only after reading it a second time I enjoyed it a lot. It's actually quite a sincere book lurking beneath literary experimentation and general hilarity. Trust me, as you go on the number of wows you'll make at the style dwindles, but that doesn't matter, because it's still funny and engaging. In many ways the book engages with the many still-important philosophical discussions happening at that time such as determinism and materialism in such an eloquent and witty way I'm not going to do the book much justice, but basically the book's renown throughout Europe at the time is not purely down to its weirdness (although it's a big factor). Oh man. I love this book so sorry for just ranting at you. Earwicker posted:The "film adaptation" with Steve Coogan and Rob Brydon is pretty great Seconded - also the TV series The Trip and The Trip to Italy feature the same Steve and Rob characters, and it's (kind of) a spiritual successor to A Sentimental Journey (I like to think).
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Jan 11, 2015 17:44
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CestMoi posted:O cool it was actually popular at the time? I just assumed it was one of those things that was very ahead of the curve and it got rediscovered in the 20th century or something. Yeah - I don't have a source to hand, but the first two volumes got published together, without mentioning who the author was. Such was the demand from London high society generated from the book that Laurence Sterne was able to commission a portrait on the next volume to say 'yep, it's me'. "I write not to be fed, but to be famous". Although he did actually get 'fed'. This guy who was only really known in ecclesiastical circles for some great sermons could build his own Shandy Hall down the road from his church.
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Jan 11, 2015 18:21
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Grizzled Patriarch posted:In undergrad we read an essay about sexuality in Tristram Shandy, I'll see if I can find the source. I remember it arguing that Sterne actually uses indentation and the book's gutter in the trench scene to basically draw a crude vagina on the page, though I don't know how much of that argument was just reading too deeply into it. Sterne personally oversaw the publication of each volume, it's very likely he had control over how each page looked. It wouldn't surprise me to be honest. Dude was a horny priest.
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Jan 22, 2015 14:46
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So what does this thread think of the recent news about Harper Lee's 'new' novel? Currently a bit of a debate is going on as to whether it's done completely with her consent. Depends really if you believe the people who are publishing it to be honest. http://www.theguardian.com/books/2015/feb/04/harper-lee-excited-about-new-book-agent vs http://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2015/02/the-tragedy-of-harper-lee/385132/ E: Sounds like I probably won't read it anyway; I love To Kill A Mockingbird but I can't see much appeal in reading the unfinished first attempt by a juvenile novelist who later went on to write something good.
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Feb 4, 2015 18:30
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Because they're used as a substitute for reading the original, instead of as a supplement. If it's a side by side two column deal, that's one thing. I'm with you here. Chaucer is the easiest Middle English to read, and it requires a little adjustment but you can get into the swing of things after a while. And plus half the fun is his seemingly effortless rhythm and rhyme. But there's not a lot of ME the lay reader can read without translation.
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Mar 6, 2015 23:03
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Smoking Crow posted:Malory is easier imo From a linguistic standpoint, sure, but I think his prose is pretty difficult compared with Chaucer's verse. Both great fun, though. poisonpill posted:What's interesting is to read Chaucer alongside Sir Gawain and the Green Knight. They are roughly contemporary but Chaucer was from London and the author of Gawain was rural. One is part of the English language's direct lineage but the other is almost illegible, despite them ostensibly being the same language. While that's true, it's worth bearing in mind that it seems like recent scholarship has shown the author also is trying to purposefully use obscure dialect words and archaisms, so it might well have been difficult for its day. But the contrast could not be more marked. I personally prefer SGGK over anything else in the period. It's the best English verse narrative of all time, and nobody can change my mind. 
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Mar 7, 2015 00:05
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Ras Het posted:That rich estimation of yours is still an absurd amount of effort considering all of Old English literature is basically Beowulf and The Annual Chronicles of Nicholaeus Dickweede of Plymouth Monastery. Judith? The Wanderer? Dream of the Rood? True you can fit all OE poetry in one book, but it's a great book if you learn the language.
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Mar 7, 2015 14:25
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Smoking Crow posted:The two good ones are Camus and Nietzsche give them a try Russell's 'History of Western Philosophy' is well-written. As for the history itself, that's more debatable. But when he's summarising the ideas, it's brilliant. An actual philosophy book I think is very lucid and well-written is Phillippa Foot's 'Natural Goodness'. Another writer whose clarity I admire is Elizabeth Anscombe
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Mar 12, 2015 17:38
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CestMoi posted:lots of other philosophers are at least alright at wtriting, they're just writing about difficult topics I'd agree with this, a lot of the time words are introduced to refer to or support specific contexts and then are only used in that specific context. Jargon is a tool. Confusion comes about when you look up the word in the dictionary if you skimmed that bit and you then go 'this drat sentence makes no sense'. Not to mention if you have a sentence with lots of jargon in and then quote it to peeps on the internet and say, 'Look! They're just saying random stuff!' novamute posted:This is the only book on philosophy that I've ever read that I'd say was well-written. Philosophers in general are terrible at communicating their ideas and the tendency to fall back on invented language really doesn't help anything. I think that's a bit uncharitable.
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Mar 12, 2015 17:52
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Say what you will about Infinite Jest, but Brief Interviews With Hideous Men contains some seriously excellent short stories. Brief Interview #20, one of the last stories in the book, is the highlight. Also, the fact that Eggers latches on to Magnetic Fields and Sufjan Stevens as the pinnacle of grand musical achievement in the 21st century is really bloody sad. Why not go write for Pitchfork or something.
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Mar 17, 2015 22:58
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david crosby posted:"The sky is the color of a uhhh... tv. a dead tv. the future is hosed up." What's impressive is that TV wasn't even invented when that line was written. Gee, Gibson sure was a prophet. To be honest I don't put too much stock in opening lines. It seems to me to be one of those truisms spouted as wisdom by the likes of Gruff Knowledgeable Writer Types who know this sort of thing. What annoys me is when a writer seems to have spent far more effort in a snappy, memorable opening at the expense of, you know, the rest of the book.
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Mar 20, 2015 23:21
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Ras Het posted:I somehow doubt this happens often. Ian McEwan is infuriating for this. Especially Enduring Love.
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Mar 20, 2015 23:55
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Rabbit Hill posted:I've tried to read so many of McEwan's novels but can never get more than a couple chapters in before I get too annoyed to continue by something. The only one I managed to read to completion was The Cement Garden, which was not worth the effort. Oh he really is absolutely overhyped. He comes up with interesting ideas for stories and has strong moments but forgets to be interesting beyond general middle class dinner party blather. Everything wrong with British fiction nowadays can be embodied by him.
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Mar 22, 2015 17:26
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'If' was Ayn Rand's favourite poem, enough said
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Mar 30, 2015 04:33
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Mr. Squishy posted:What's the best book Will Self ever wrote. His poo diary. In all seriousness I tried to get through Umbrella and it was awful. Just awful.
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Apr 1, 2015 20:27
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ulvir posted:I didn't say it bothered me, I just said that the non-diegetic usage was a bit unneccessary. I can't recall if the same happened with native americans re: their depictions in the book, but if so than that's equally pointless (and maybe even worse) Never thought about this before. Are chapter headings really non-diegetic? Also, don't concern yourself with high/lowbrow, talk about good books, say why they're good, everyone's happy. High v. lowbrow is more about bullshit one-upping on your cultural capital and people should move on i.m.h.goddam.o
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Apr 6, 2015 11:38
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CestMoi posted:I'm reading Pantagruel by Rabelais I take it you enjoyed Tristram Shandy?
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Apr 8, 2015 14:21
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CestMoi posted:It's my favourite novel from this dumbass island. Yaaassss excellent. Read Sentimental Journey when you can, it's a different beast but really good.
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Apr 8, 2015 15:09
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Mel Mudkiper posted:The Lost Honor of Katharina Blum Haven't read it, but I can say that the 1974 film of this is good and cool.
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Apr 20, 2015 15:05
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Mel Mudkiper posted:God subjectivity is cool And it's really fun when the author knows it too and reading a book becomes a little game between you and some dead person who's also cleverer than you.
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Apr 22, 2015 00:17
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So I spent the last month or so reading/slogging through Der Grüne Heinrich by Gottfried Keller. It's a massive novel, and one of the last of the initial wave of German-language Bildungsromans about art. My feelings about it are quite ambivalent, because although there were snatches of beauty and brilliance it was mostly concerned with the mundane and quotidian to an almost obsessive degree. It didn't help that there were 30-page tangents that seemed barely related until you got to the end of them. It didn't help, either, that it was crawling along at a snail's pace following a protagonist I couldn't quite get myself to feel entirely sympathetic towards, following his bad decisions (which is par for the course for the genre), which inevitably arise because he forgets the basic lessons they taught him (which isn't). I liked the general discussion of Nature and Art and God, and I also quite liked his hangups about women not living up to this obsessive ideal he has of them because of the Pure and Virginal First Love he had. What I didn't like was the minutiae and the details, especially towards the end where yet again this somehow-charming guy falls totally in love with this girl in a castle, and she loves him back but yet again nothing comes of it because he's a weirdo. Yeah, we get it. But what really redeemed the book for me was the ending when he decides he has been pursuing an entirely selfish road of being an artist, and has forgotten all the sacrifices other people made for him (esp. his mother). So he gives it all up, he packs in the dream and settles for a life in the civil service, which he finds infinitely more satisfying. Even though he's probably still alone and has all these creative impulses. As an ending it's a huge anticlimax but it speaks a lot to me, it felt much more genuine and convincing than how it could have ended. I think it was a really brave way to go about things from Keller's standpoint. So basically I like the general idea of the novel, but not really how it went about things. I like a novel about continually oscillating between your options, lurching from one epiphany to the next without really learning anything, and eventually letting go of your naive youthful idealism as the moment of 'maturity', but I don't particularly like the endless near-identical women Heinrich has unrequited love for, the endless 'oh I thought my painting was good, but then I saw Other Painting which was really good' and 'artists are different to normal people'. So if anybody has some cool German lit recs I'd be p grateful corn in the bible posted:dracula is for children and manchildren afraid of sex nuh uh
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Apr 23, 2015 17:08
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CestMoi posted:Faust Ooh yeah. I have Sorrows of Young Werther on my shelf but considering Goethe is regarded in Germany as some kind of semi-Jesus then maybe he's worth dipping into a bit
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Apr 23, 2015 20:57
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Barthes' writing is a car crash. An Ironically Anti-Poststructuralist Death. 
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Apr 28, 2015 17:34
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End Of Worlds posted:the envious having their eyes sewn shut is super disturbing but nothing beats hell's forest of suicides for sheer horror imo I've had nightmares about the bit in the last cantos in inferno, with the bodies encased in ice, where one guy eats the head of the poor guy directly in front of him.
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May 29, 2015 21:52
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End Of Worlds posted:It's so astonishingly nonsensical that I think it goes full circle and becomes genius. It's like making an FPS based on Leaves of Grass. A MOBA based on The Wasteland. Featuring such heroes as Mme Sosostris, Lil's Husband, The Typist, Tiresias and Phlebas the Phoenician. And maps of Jerusalem, Athens, Alexandria, Vienna, London and The Unreal City.
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Jun 1, 2015 14:46
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This is the literature thread Surely literary types shouldn't spend their time pretending to be choosy about alcohol
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Jul 5, 2015 19:33
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