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meat sweats posted:I'm demonstrating that this is in fact the case in some respects, no matter how poorly it may sit with you. meat sweats posted:The left doesn't care about cop abuses. This is a liberal issue in which leftist rhetoric has been mobilized in favor of a fascist police state agenda. You have no idea what the Left cares about. You should probably listen to them, hear what they say; then you might have an idea. The Left isn't a boogie man you loving idiot. Are you saying that the left is in support of the police and prison situations in our country? Pohl fucked around with this message at 01:14 on Jun 30, 2014 |
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Jun 30, 2014 00:58
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meat sweats posted:The teachers go on strike until the budget is restored to the level they demand, irrespective of what the voters or their elected representatives have democratically chosen. You say this as if it's a bad thing. The salaries of public workers shouldn't be constantly held hostage(re: cut yearly) by the electorate. e: meat sweats posted:The left doesn't care about cop abuses. This is a liberal issue in which leftist rhetoric has been mobilized in favor of a fascist police state agenda. Never mind, you're just adorable.
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Jun 30, 2014 01:00
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meat sweats posted:The left doesn't care about cop abuses. This is a liberal issue in which leftist rhetoric has been mobilized in favor of a fascist police state agenda. Police could have all the union they wanted if they had meaningful extradepartmental oversight.
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Jun 30, 2014 01:01
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I'm pretty sure I already know the answer to this question but I'll ask anyway, meat sweats, what do you think the public employee union does when an allegation of misconduct is made against a police officer--or an educator, postal worker, etc.? What is your understanding of how that process plays out?
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Jun 30, 2014 01:05
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Pardon me if after sitting through the last Venezuela thread, in which the leftist brigade defended shooting into protests, detention without charge, and actual torture in jails by the police, I would rather side with the ACLU than the Z Magazine brigade on this issue. I shouldn't have to explain the lengthy history of leftist police states to convince you that a union which exists literally to make sure none of its members are ever held accountable for violating civil liberties is bad.
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Jun 30, 2014 01:07
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paragon1 posted:I think more people are worried about the cops having a problem with them. See also: Every black person shot by the police for no goddamn reason. Well what percentage of people shot by cops are shot "for no reason"? I don't think that's actually a thing that happens regularly.
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Jun 30, 2014 01:07
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Pohl posted:And the left is not demonizing the police in order to strengthen the police. I just don't even know what to say to that. You tell him his rhetoric's incompetent, his poo poo's all retarded and he talks like a fag. Miltank posted:Police could have all the union they wanted if they had meaningful extradepartmental oversight. That's the impression I get. I'm disappointed that this thread is flat loving retarded because I hoped we'd get something cops or people affiliated with law-enforcement might end up posting in. I'd love an inside perspective on oversight.
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Jun 30, 2014 01:08
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meat sweats posted:Seems like there's a lot of thrashing around here from people who don't want to admit that a choice must be made between blanket support of public employee unions and civil liberties-oriented support of police reform. There's no evidence that a choice must be made. Do you have any data which supports a correlation between the states and municipalities where police officers have collective bargaining rights and police misconduct?
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Jun 30, 2014 01:09
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EvanSchenck posted:I'm pretty sure I already know the answer to this question but I'll ask anyway, meat sweats, what do you think the public employee union does when an allegation of misconduct is made against a police officer--or an educator, postal worker, etc.? What is your understanding of how that process plays out? Well, usually the accusation can never go anywhere because of provisions the police union has already negotiated -- it's nearly impossible to investigate a cop, if you do nail him with rock-solid evidence he just gets a paid vacation. In the ultra-rare event that a cop goes to trial, he never goes to prison, it ends with his acquittal or a suspended sentence because the union has made it clear that any prosecutor or judge who goes against a cop will never be able to win a case that depends on cop testimony again. Oftentimes, the police union will go on strike, physically block the courthouse, threaten to do those things, or otherwise use its power to prevent a trial from happening. All police union members will lie, destroy evidence, intimidate and harass witnesses, and otherwise abuse their police power to make sure no cop is convicted of anything. This is the insidious part and why there are no "good cops" -- while only a small fraction of cops have actually shot a black man for sport or planted evidence on a suspect, every single one of them without exception has been involved in covering up for those who have. That's the actual process, what actually happens in the real world with cops and cop unions. Sometimes, there is a happy ending, i.e. the FBI coming to town and not giving a gently caress about local yokels and the cops' bullshit and cleaning house, but this is not how it usually goes. I'm sure you have some alternate universe conception of the process playing out that you are going to share instead.
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Jun 30, 2014 01:11
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meat sweats posted:Pardon me if after sitting through the last Venezuela thread, in which the leftist brigade defended shooting into protests, detention without charge, and actual torture in jails by the police, I would rather side with the ACLU than the Z Magazine brigade on this issue. I shouldn't have to explain the lengthy history of leftist police states to convince you that a union which exists literally to make sure none of its members are ever held accountable for violating civil liberties is bad. What the gently caress are you even talking about? You sound like a wounded animal right now, thrashing around to survive.
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Jun 30, 2014 01:13
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meat sweats posted:Pardon me if after sitting through the last Venezuela thread, in which the leftist brigade defended shooting into protests, detention without charge, and actual torture in jails by the police, I would rather side with the ACLU than the Z Magazine brigade on this issue. I shouldn't have to explain the lengthy history of leftist police states to convince you that a union which exists literally to make sure none of its members are ever held accountable for violating civil liberties is bad. The ACLU? The ones who sue schools for talking about JESUS? Sounds a lot like Cultural Revolution to me, Mao. 
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Jun 30, 2014 01:13
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meat sweats posted:Pardon me if after sitting through the last Venezuela thread, in which the leftist brigade defended shooting into protests, detention without charge, and actual torture in jails by the police, I would rather side with the ACLU than the Z Magazine brigade on this issue. I shouldn't have to explain the lengthy history of leftist police states to convince you that a union which exists literally to make sure none of its members are ever held accountable for violating civil liberties is bad. The ACLU thinks public employee unions should be destroyed?
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Jun 30, 2014 01:14
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made of bees posted:The ACLU? The ones who sue schools for talking about JESUS? As well they should...are you still operating under the conception that I'm an agent of the Republican menace? SedanChair posted:The ACLU thinks public employee unions should be destroyed? The ACLU takes a drat more principled stand on police abuse than the left-wingers in this thread, who are opposed to it up until the moment that doing anything about it might require going against a union.
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Jun 30, 2014 01:16
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meat sweats posted:Pardon me if after sitting through the last Venezuela thread, in which the leftist brigade defended shooting into protests, detention without charge, and actual torture in jails by the police, I would rather side with the ACLU than the Z Magazine brigade on this issue. The ACLU doesn't think police unions are the source of the problem, here. https://www.aclu.org/criminal-law-reform/police-practices quote:Police Practices
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Jun 30, 2014 01:16
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Pohl posted:What the gently caress are you even talking about? You sound like a wounded animal right now, thrashing around to survive. I dunno, I figured it was about as relevant as someone trying to make this about Israel. I don't really have to prove that ideologically committed leftists support unlimited state power, though.
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Jun 30, 2014 01:16
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meat sweats posted:The ACLU takes a drat more principled stand on police abuse than the left-wingers in this thread, who are opposed to it up until the moment that doing anything about it might require going against a union. Did I miss something? I don't want to go in circles, so I won't bother asking why all public employee unions have to be disbanded in order to rein in police unions. Who came out in defense of police unions, though? I'm certainly opposed to them having the last word on whether a cop loses their job or not. But I don't see any need to gut their pensions.
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Jun 30, 2014 01:20
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meat sweats posted:The ACLU takes a drat more principled stand on police abuse than the left-wingers in this thread, who are opposed to it up until the moment that doing anything about it might require going against a union. Stripping workers of collective bargaining rights is not something people who work for a living should reasonably accept as a solution.
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Jun 30, 2014 01:23
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Police Unions don't ever have the last word on disciplinary actions taken against their members. They provide their members representation to ensure that their members receive their constitutional right to due process.
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Jun 30, 2014 01:26
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JeffersonClay posted:Police Unions don't ever have the last word on disciplinary actions taken against their members. They provide their members representation to ensure that their members receive their constitutional right to due process. Oh, does my "right to due process" as a non-cop mean that I will get a paid vacation and never, ever go to prison in the event that I'm accused of a crime? Does it mean my coworkers will constantly find reasons to arrest the person who accused me? Does it mean there will be a picket line at the courthouse demanding I be released no matter what I am accused of? Does it mean evidence will be planted or destroyed to bolster my case? Tell me more about how no one is defending police unions!
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Jun 30, 2014 01:29
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meat sweats posted:I dunno, I figured it was about as relevant as someone trying to make this about Israel. I don't really have to prove that ideologically committed leftists support unlimited state power, though. You just never stop giving, do you? Except this isn't Christmas and you aren't Santa.
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Jun 30, 2014 01:31
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Uh-Oh guys looks like we have a reTHUGlican here
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Jun 30, 2014 01:32
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Throwdini posted:Stripping workers of collective bargaining rights is not something people who work for a living should reasonably accept as a solution. What people who work for a living? I thought we were talking about cops.
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Jun 30, 2014 01:32
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meat sweats posted:Oh, does my "right to due process" as a non-cop mean that I will get a paid vacation and never, ever go to prison in the event that I'm accused of a crime? Does it mean my coworkers will constantly find reasons to arrest the person who accused me? Does it mean there will be a picket line at the courthouse demanding I be released no matter what I am accused of? Does it mean evidence will be planted or destroyed to bolster my case? Have you noticed that none of this stuff applies to teachers? The issue is not public employee unions.
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Jun 30, 2014 01:35
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meat sweats posted:What people who work for a living? I thought we were talking about cops. Funny. Cops work for a living in a dangerous environment. The problem comes, when we militarize them and make them proactive rather than reactive. (for the basic cop). You've twisted this entirely into the cop union controlling every cop and causing untold harm upon society. Edit: I Can't believe we have a cop thread in D&D where most of us are defending the cops. Well done you fucker, well done.
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Jun 30, 2014 01:36
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Pohl posted:Cops work for a living in a dangerous environment. This is a lie.
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Jun 30, 2014 01:41
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Pohl posted:Funny. Literally "you don't know what it's LIKE out there, you stupid civvie." Nice "leftism." Should I even bother saying the things I always say to cop-defending right-wingers when they bring this garbage? About how cops are less likely to be killed in the line of duty than commercial fisherman or construction workers? About how most cops do nothing but sit on speed traps or protect and serve the 7-11 donut case all night? Is there any point in assuming you haven't heard this before?
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Jun 30, 2014 01:43
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meat sweats posted:The teachers go on strike until the budget is restored to the level they demand, irrespective of what the voters or their elected representatives have democratically chosen. This isn't what actually happens. Budgets have been cut in most of the country and what happens is some teachers are laid off and the remaining teachers take a pay cut after their next round of contract negotiations. And choosing between teachers unions and ending police abuse is a false choice. They aren't related.
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Jun 30, 2014 01:45
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Kiwi Ghost Chips posted:This is a lie. Twist it however you want. That doesn't mean we should militarize them or glamorize them. Their burden of danger is overrepresented but it is always present. That takes a toll. meat sweats posted:Literally "you don't know what it's LIKE out there, you stupid civvie." Nice "leftism." No, you should shut the gently caress up, because you are dumb. Pohl fucked around with this message at 01:57 on Jun 30, 2014 |
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Jun 30, 2014 01:52
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Kiwi Ghost Chips posted:This is a lie. Actually its not. But quick, run and pull out the "most dangerous jobs in America" list and confirm Fisherman are still #1 to make yourself feel correct. Then just forget fisherman don't routinely respond to aggravated calls, deal with armed suspects, are assaulted while working, or potentially even shot and killed while eating lunch simply "for being a fisherman". More goes in to what makes a job "dangerous" for a worker than simply running the statistics at the end of the year and seeing how things shake out. But most people know this.
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Jun 30, 2014 01:55
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Untagged posted:Actually its not. But quick, run and pull out the "most dangerous jobs in America" list and confirm Fisherman are still #1 to make yourself feel correct. Then just forget fisherman don't routinely respond to aggravated calls, deal with armed suspects, are assaulted while working, or potentially even shot and killed while eating lunch simply "for being a fisherman". More goes in to what makes a job "dangerous" for a worker than simply running the statistics at the end of the year and seeing how things shake out. But most people know this. And even though they don't do these things, they still die and are injured more, as are many other professions. Police have no duty to help you and usually won't. Most of them never draw a gun or have one drawn at them in their whole career. The average cop is a full-time meter maid who thinks this justifies a $200K salary and immunity from the laws. Defending them and claiming to be some sort of gently caress-the-system leftist revolutionary is pathetic.
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Jun 30, 2014 02:01
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Untagged posted:Actually its not. But quick, run and pull out the "most dangerous jobs in America" list and confirm Fisherman are still #1 to make yourself feel correct. Then just forget fisherman don't routinely respond to aggravated calls, deal with armed suspects, are assaulted while working, or potentially even shot and killed while eating lunch simply "for being a fisherman". More goes in to what makes a job "dangerous" for a worker than simply running the statistics at the end of the year and seeing how things shake out. But most people know this. Actually no, I'd say the fatality rate an occupation has among workers is actually a pretty good indication of how dangerous it is on a day to day basis and if I recall cops don't even make the top 20 from BLS statistics. Not to mention a lot of cops work in suburban/rural towns with very infrequent occasions of violent crime and incidents.
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Jun 30, 2014 02:06
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meat sweats posted:And even though they don't do these things, they still die and are injured more, as are many other professions. I know right, those police guys are assholes. gently caress you. Very few cops make $200K a year. Nor, do they have immunity from laws. See, you just sound like a jackass. You have a point, but is so hyperbolic that no on can hear it without laughing. You might be able to find individual cases that prove whatever you are saying, but it isn't the norm. It isn't real. You have already embarrassed yourself enough.
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Jun 30, 2014 02:06
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meat sweats posted:And even though they don't do these things, they still die and are injured more, as are many other professions. Conversely, aren't the "full-time meter maids" not a problem if they're never doing anything interesting or extraordinary? What abuses are the full-time meter maids engaging in?
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Jun 30, 2014 02:06
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Saying that every cop in every union is involved with covering up misconduct is the same sort of bullshit that flies when you say that every American is responsible for dead Iraqis because of taxes. Yes, the CA cop unions need to be addressed and reined in. This does not mean that public employee unions are a negative as a concept. Especially when the alternative presents itself. If we could actual look at and maybe pass some new provisions through the mess of our legislature Also, saying cop work is dangerous because of fringe cases compared to physically ruinous dangerous hard labor can go ahead and take a jump because the biggest threat to a cop's life is the chronic stress from viewing all outsiders as potential perps. If the FBI did get the executive directive to crack down on police union misbehavior in CA it would turn into a political coup for the party that didn't get it to happen. Lots of people still fear brown people more than fearing a police apparatus gone power-mad.
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Jun 30, 2014 02:11
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meat sweats posted:Well, usually the accusation can never go anywhere because of provisions the police union has already negotiated -- it's nearly impossible to investigate a cop, if you do nail him with rock-solid evidence he just gets a paid vacation. In the ultra-rare event that a cop goes to trial, he never goes to prison, it ends with his acquittal or a suspended sentence because the union has made it clear that any prosecutor or judge who goes against a cop will never be able to win a case that depends on cop testimony again. Actually, no. I could nitpick at the above because you're making some factual errors and insupportable blanket assertions. For example, you keep talking about police unions going on strike and engaging in civil disobedience to disrupt trials, but I tried locating some historical examples for that and there don't appear to be any. All I could find were some police strikes from over 30 years ago, but those were related to disputes with management over wages, benefits, and working conditions--not punishment for misconduct. You've mentioned this idea repeatedly so maybe you have a specific citation in mind, but if so I couldn't find it. But in a general way all of the above is true. The main issue with everything you said here isn't that it is exactly false but that it's unrelated to the existence of public employee unions. It would happen outside the context of police labor organization. Do you think police are the only people who close ranks and protect members of the guild? How about doctors, lawyers, warehouse workers, baristas, whatever? Everybody does that, and in fact doctors are notorious for looking out for eachother. Further, you're saying "the union" threatens to tank cases for judges and prosecutors if they don't throw over cases against cops. If that's something that happens, how would eliminating the union stop it? How would eliminating the union make it easier to shepherd cases against cops through grand juries and jury trials? The police and court system simply has a difficult time dealing with certain varieties of offenses. For example, the system is abysmal at prosecuting rapes and sexual assaults. This isn't because there's a rapists' union that puts pressure on officers of the court to bungle cases, it's because juries typically can't follow and don't like rape and sex assault cases. They usually want to acquit and it takes a lot of convincing to get them to convict. With cases against police officers you're talking about a defendant who is going to be more experienced with navigating the court system than any ordinary criminal (more than most attorneys, even), because court time is a major part of an LEO's career. That's already a major problem for getting a conviction, because they know all the tricks of how the system tries to intimidate and trap suspects/defendants, and if necessary they know how to give testimony that spins the case how they want. On top of that most people, the people who will sit on the jury, are sympathetic to police by default and will hew to the just world theory that if a cop did it he had a good reason. Together that builds a very, very high wall for a prosecutor to clear. Most of the time it probably isn't even necessary for The Sinister Black Hand of the Union to threaten anything, because these cases are already losers from the get-go. Worse still, LEOs know it so it's not like prosecutors have much chance of strong-arming their way to plea bargains. You could outlaw police unions nationwide tomorrow and the police would still walk on almost every charge. The only thing that would change is that police would then be vulnerable to being terminated without cause, and if you believe management would use that power to get rid of the bad cops, I have a portfolio of fine bridges I'd like to sell you.
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Jun 30, 2014 02:11
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Amused to Death posted:Actually no, I'd say the fatality rate an occupation has among workers is actually a pretty good indication of how dangerous it is on a day to day basis and if I recall cops don't even make the top 20 from BLS statistics. Not to mention a lot of cops work in suburban/rural towns with very infrequent occasions of violent crime and incidents. Yeah, most cops work in areas that offer them no threat. Actually, because of budgets, most cops have everything to worry about, physically. In Boise, if you call the police, you get 12 cops within 3 minutes. I'm not even joking. I called for a noise complaint awhile back and there were 12 cops, and I thought they were going to arrest me for awhile. I don't like cops, but the arguments against them here are loving stupid. Pohl fucked around with this message at 02:15 on Jun 30, 2014 |
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Jun 30, 2014 02:11
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Pohl posted:I don't like cops, but the arguments against them here are loving stupid. He's not arguing against cops, he's arguing against organized labor writ large and using police as a the venue for that.
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Jun 30, 2014 02:14
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EvanSchenck posted:He's not arguing against cops, he's arguing against organized labor writ large and using police as a the venue for that. Yeah, I know. We had that argument a lot of posts ago. It seems to be circular.
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Jun 30, 2014 02:17
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I don't know how you could every expect an organization, accountable only to itself, to ever be fair. History is overwhelmingly against you if you think that it won't become more corrupt over time. Police Cameras + External Community Accountability sounds reasonable, the great thing about police cameras is you can turn the whole pro-cctv arguments against them: what have they got to hide?
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Jun 30, 2014 02:22
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Kiwi Ghost Chips posted:This is a lie. It depends on the job. Just guessing, but I think a cop who does mostly drug busts is probably going to have a pretty low mortality rate compared to highway patrol. Anyone have statistics?
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