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My Imaginary GF posted:Step 1: Bend the knee Just a reminder that the Native Americans have bent the knee for over one hundred years by now and they are still poor as poo poo and upset because the feds kept trying to kill off their cultures and all the good land kept being taken. This was all in the name of progress and development of course.
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Oct 31, 2014 02:37
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My Imaginary GF posted:You obviously don't understand developing nation economics. A stable state with centralized power is necessary for low-income capital accumulation. To sustain middle-income growth, a state has to have a self-sustaining capitalist class with appropriate institutional structures that fall in line with international norms. On the other hand, recorded history, like Aparteid ending due to international sanctions, embargo, and threats to the stability of South Africa instead of black South Africans boostrapping.
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Oct 31, 2014 02:38
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My Imaginary GF posted:Is it impossible for you to understand that a population cannot be colonized AND under apartheid at the same time? Who is colonizing them? Under what system would they be governed were apartheid to end? Are these two answers the same? No; they cannot be, logically. If it is apartheid then it is a one-state solution. If it is colonialism then it is a two-state border dispute. You get that Israel has Palestinian citizens, right? They live under apartheid. Palestinian subjects of Israel, under Israeli military law in the West Bank, are being colonized. Israel is colonizing them. Hope that cleared things up for you!  My Imaginary GF posted:
Objective proof for Israeli apartheid: http://i.imgur.com/L86hXg4.jpg Objective proof for Israeli colonialism: http://i.imgur.com/gyKWqo3.jpg DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 02:44 on Oct 31, 2014 |
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Oct 31, 2014 02:39
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It's both depending on where in Greater Israel you live as a Palestinian. Israeli Arabs are second class citizens denied many rights and forced to be effectively segregated in society. That is apartheid. In the territory that the Palestinians nominally control, Israel is engaging in land grabs in the form of settlements and other illegal seizures of land rights. That is the colonial aspect. The issue is multi-faceted, indeed, that's why it is so hard to solve in the first place.
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Oct 31, 2014 02:42
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rscott posted:It's both depending on where in Greater Israel you live as a Palestinian. Israeli Arabs are second class citizens denied many rights and forced to be effectively segregated in society. That is apartheid. In the territory that the Palestinians nominally control, Israel is engaging in land grabs in the form of settlements and other illegal seizures of land rights. That is the colonial aspect. The issue is multi-faceted, indeed, that's why it is so hard to solve in the first place. I have a solution. My solution takes 4-10 generations to implement and results in statehood with stable power structures and no external military intervention in liu of domestic governance. I'd make the argument that Jews and other non-Arabs are second-class citizens in Palestine. Both issues must be resolved before the peace process finishes through successful implementation. Peace is a bottom-up process that can only be achieved by a population willing to sacrifice its core principles and "bend the knee" to outside powers when unable, or unwilling, to govern itself.
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Oct 31, 2014 02:47
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My Imaginary GF posted:I have a solution. My solution takes 4-10 generations to implement and results in statehood with stable power structures and no external military intervention in liu of domestic governance. You don't have a solution. Your solution is founded on the false belief that Israel is a benevolent actor which wants an independent Palestinian state when it is in fact an apartheid colonialist state and wants the land and Palestinians in an inferior position. When a solution is not based on reality, it is not a solution, I hope that helps you In 4 generations there will be 4-5 million settlers in the West Bank, making a Palestinian state impossible. You say that you support a two-state solution, are you going to support deporting all those people from their homes?
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Oct 31, 2014 02:52
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DarkCrawler posted:You don't have a solution. Your solution is founded on the false belief that Israel is a benevolent actor which wants an independent Palestinian state when it is in fact an apartheid colonialist state and wants the land and Palestinians in an inferior position. When a solution is not based on reality, it is not a solution, I hope that helps you FYI, I assume everyone in foreign policy is a self-interested rear end in a top hat willing to screw you over the moment you view them as a repeat player and they view you as a single-time player. The policies I support stem from that assumption. If your policy proposals don't stand up in the face of meddling assholes, you've made some horrendous and counter-productive proposals that are a waste of time, resources, and lives. I support those individuals having the right to be stakeholders in a political process that affords them stakeholdership.
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Oct 31, 2014 02:56
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My Imaginary GF posted:Step 1: Bend the knee
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Oct 31, 2014 02:59
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My Imaginary GF posted:FYI, I assume everyone in foreign policy is a self-interested rear end in a top hat willing to screw you over the moment you view them as a repeat player and they view you as a single-time player. The policies I support stem from that assumption. No they don't, because you still think Palestinians have the power to affect their own conditions when 70 years of history prove you wrong. That's why your proposals are treated as the naive trash they are, they have no basis on reality and are not built on observed history. My Imaginary GF posted:If your policy proposals don't stand up in the face of meddling assholes, you've made some horrendous and counter-productive proposals that are a waste of time, resources, and lives. My policy proposals give Israelis two choices: give Palestinians rights or face economic ruin and international isolation. That's all the meddling assholes are going to be able to have, and it's pretty clear what the population who votes them in power is going to choose. Worked with South Africa!
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Oct 31, 2014 03:01
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DarkCrawler posted:My policy proposals give Israelis two choices: give Palestinians rights or face economic ruin and international isolation. That's all the meddling assholes are going to be able to have, and it's pretty clear what the population who votes them in power is going to choose. Worked with South Africa! I don't think thats how the Israelis see it. Irony Be My Shield posted:Can you point to a single example of this happening anywhere Israel, as one successful example.
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Oct 31, 2014 03:03
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My Imaginary GF posted:I don't think thats how the Israelis see it. It doesn't matter how they see it, that's how it is going to be! When it starts to show in their paychecks, they're going to see it, though.
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Oct 31, 2014 03:04
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DarkCrawler posted:It doesn't matter how they see it, that's how it is going to be! And individuals often say I sound like Netanyahu. E: For context, pre-edit DarkCrawler only had what I quoted in full.
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Oct 31, 2014 03:05
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I can just picture the laughter coming from racists all over the world when a nation founded by Jewish settlers offers a solution that suggests that their bloodthirst will end if you give them money.
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Oct 31, 2014 03:06
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My Imaginary GF posted:Israel, as one successful example. 
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Oct 31, 2014 03:06
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Just bend the knee. Just bend the knee. I don't want to hear all this complaining, about "my knee doesn't bend that way."
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Oct 31, 2014 03:07
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My Imaginary GF posted:And individuals often say I sound like Netanyahu. Netanyahu doesn't give the Palestinians a choice, my proposal gives one to Israelis. All they have to do is to stop apartheid and colonialism. My Imaginary GF posted:For context, pre-edit DarkCrawler only had what I quoted in full. When you ignore half my posts anyway, I didn't think post edits would matter much
DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 03:11 on Oct 31, 2014 |
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Oct 31, 2014 03:08
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DarkCrawler posted:Netanyahu doesn't give the Palestinians a choice, my proposal gives one to Israelis. All they have to do is to stop apartheid and colonialism. Do Israelis even have a candidate to vote for who supports this? I feel like it's as hopeless as changing American policy.
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Oct 31, 2014 03:10
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SBJ posted:Do Israelis even have a candidate to vote for who supports this? I feel like it's as hopeless as changing American policy. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meretz http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadash http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balad_(political_party)
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Oct 31, 2014 03:13
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Do you disagree?
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Oct 31, 2014 03:15
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My Imaginary GF posted:Has this ever been tried before? Its clear that everything which has been tried, hasn't worked. How about trying a model that has a proven track record for success elsewhere in the world? You keep saying that putting economic pressure on Israel is a bad idea, but it fulfills those exact criteria: The USA and its Europe allies have never tried it, and it has a proven track record for success elsewhere in the world, e.g. South Africa. Earlier you rejected that comparison because the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and South Africa had some kind of qualitative difference, but here you're saying we should try this model because it supposedly has a proven track record elsewhere. What successes elsewhere are you talking about? I want to understand what makes them applicable to the case of Palestine in a way that economic pressure on Israel isn't. ghetto edit: My Imaginary GF posted:Israel, as one successful example. ??? This kind of statement implies that your understanding of the history of this conflict is mistaken to such an extent that you simply can't be taken seriously. Are you seriously trying to argue that Israel, a state which since 1947 has been involved more or less constantly in military actions and occupations against it's neighbors, fits this model: quote:Step 1: Bend the knee Where in this sequence do you fit the four major shooting wars (Independence, Suez Crisis, 1967 War, 1973 War)? Are you from an alternate universe where the Israelis bent the knee to the Arab states in 1947 but then carefully built relationships in international capital markets and peacefully achieved independence through financialization of their economy three or four generations later (e.g. 2007 or so)?
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Oct 31, 2014 03:15
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EvanSchenck posted:You keep saying that putting economic pressure on Israel is a bad idea, but it fulfills those exact criteria: The USA and its Europe allies have never tried it, and it has a proven track record for success elsewhere in the world, e.g. South Africa. Earlier you rejected that comparison because the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and South Africa had some kind of qualitative difference, but here you're saying we should try this model because it supposedly has a proven track record elsewhere. What successes elsewhere are you talking about? I want to understand what makes them applicable to the case of Palestine in a way that economic pressure on Israel isn't. Bend the knee (to the regional authorities exerting control). Does that clarify it for you? quote:Are you from an alternate universe where the Israelis bent the knee to the Arab states in 1947 but then carefully built relationships in international capital markets and peacefully achieved independence through financialization of their economy three or four generations later (e.g. 2007 or so)? Israelis bent the knee for generations before that to reach that point in 1947. Relatively speaking, as a developed state, Israelis achieved that peace rather another genocide at the hands of Arab invading armies precisely because they already had those international relations and access to capital markets. E: You know another nation in the region which has bent the knee and is on the cusp of independent sovereignity, and have faced worse problems than Palestinians? Kurds, and Kurdistsn. My Imaginary GF fucked around with this message at 03:23 on Oct 31, 2014 |
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Oct 31, 2014 03:19
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It is the right and duty of all oppressed people to act to overthrow their oppression. It's not even practical: Israel systematically appropriates resources and capital from the west bank, how exactly is it going to 'get rich' again? Only fuckheads like you, MIGF, could ever deny that right. Would you yourself live under the same conditions of Palestinians and be okay with 'bending the knee'? rudatron fucked around with this message at 03:26 on Oct 31, 2014 |
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Oct 31, 2014 03:22
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rudatron posted:Israel systematically appropriates capital and resources from the west bank, only an apologist moron or racist would seriously suggest 'bending the knee' would ever work.. Those drat jews and their control over the Palestinian Monetary Authority has been holding back Palestinian development, I tells ya!  
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Oct 31, 2014 03:25
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My Imaginary GF posted:Bend the knee (to the regional authorities exerting control). Does that clarify it for you? http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irgun http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lehi_(group) http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haganah http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1947%E2%80%9348_Civil_War_in_Mandatory_Palestine "Bending the knee." Israeli won its independence through violence, terrorism and massive body count to them and their enemies. Don't kid yourself.
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Oct 31, 2014 03:25
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My Imaginary GF posted:Peace is a bottom-up process that can only be achieved by a population willing to sacrifice its core principles and "bend the knee" to outside powers when unable, or unwilling, to govern itself. Wow that's hosed up, nihilistic, and utterly wrong. Negotiated settlements can and do get everyone stable outcomes at a far lower cost. Here's one counterexample out thousands that disproves your thesis: the Good Friday Agreement. Your position, which follows from your thought processes, is a stupid because it's directly counterproductive to your strategic interests.
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Oct 31, 2014 03:26
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DarkCrawler posted:http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irgun "Bending the knee" pre-independence:  Israel won independence by working within the international framework of nation-states and seizing upon the collapse of British institutions to exert independence. Health Services posted:Wow that's hosed up, nihilistic, and utterly wrong. Negotiated settlements can and do get everyone stable outcomes at a far lower cost. Here's one counterexample out thousands that disproves your thesis: the Good Friday Agreement. Good Friday Agreement was between peoples of a developed and rich nation. They were not between one developed, and one least-developed, state.
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Oct 31, 2014 03:28
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MIGF, I am going to set up a settlement in your backyard, steal your water and then sell it back to you. Simply 'bend the knee' and you too, one day perhaps, can become rich again.
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Oct 31, 2014 03:29
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rudatron posted:MIGF, I am going to set up a settlement in your backyard, steal your water and then sell it back to you. Simply 'bend the knee' and you too, one day perhaps, can become rich again. Ok. Go and try. There is a legal process through which results will be achieved.
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Oct 31, 2014 03:30
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My Imaginary GF posted:"Bending the knee" pre-independence: Those people weren't Israelis, specifically. Though taken at face value you seem to be making an argument that Palestinians should not bend the knee but instead violently resist to establish their own state, like the Israeli predecessors.
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Oct 31, 2014 03:32
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Bend the knee and accumulate capital until they rise as a nation was basically what Salam Fayyad, the former Prime Minister of the Palestinian Authority, was trying to do for years. Guess what - you can't really accumulate much capital under a regime that actively undermines your supply chain, sporadically interrupts your law enforcement through refusing to hand over tax money to pay them, persistently sabotages the ability of your people to get educated abroad, or to come back once they have, and constantly cracks down on your local training facilities. It's just not something to be done. It was possible to play this game when the territory had a somewhat standoffish colonial power trying to expend as few resource to keep control of the region, but trust me, if the British were planning to put their own people in there in droves, the Zionists and the Arabs would have had a snowball's chance in hell of averting a Native American endgame. Hell, let's look at two other ethnic groups who've tried this even further, by relinquishing even the idea of independent sovereignty: the Druze and Bedouins. What did they get from this? The former are suffering from the exact same systemic racism that all Palestinian Israelis suffer, except that they also have to waste 3 years of their lives serving for the IDF, and the latter are going to experience yet another cleansing from their old lands to make way for a fresh start for new smallholding Jews in the Negev. I ask MIGF again, like I have plenty of times in this thread, given how Israel punishes cooperation and rewards violence and struggle in strategic terms, while punishing violence and rewarding cooperation in the very short term, how is a two-state solution going to even come about? Why are you putting any onus on the Palestinians, considering that all of their factions have done the best they could within their constraints, only to get shat upon?
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Oct 31, 2014 03:32
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My Imaginary GF posted:"Bending the knee" pre-independence: That's not Israel nor the entities who fought for it's independence nor the land it was founded on nor the enemies they needed to defeat. British institutions left Palestine because of a concentrated violent campaign by both sides, and Israel kept their independence by defeating the Arab invasion. And Palestine is working within the international framework of nation states, seizing upon the collapse of Israeli international influence to earn recognition and support from other countries. Not that it will do them much good without sanctions on Israel. DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 03:37 on Oct 31, 2014 |
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Oct 31, 2014 03:32
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DarkCrawler posted:And Palestine is working within the international framework of nation states, seizing upon the collapse of Israeli international influence to earn recognition and support from other countries. Not that it will do them much good without sanctions on Israel. Also that, yeah. That also parallels repeated Zionist maneuvering to get as much international legitimacy as possible for whatever they were doing. If Zionists are a good model, Fatah is doing its best to emulate them, in my opinion.
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Oct 31, 2014 03:35
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My Imaginary GF posted:"Bending the knee" pre-independence: Yes you understand why what you're saying is bullshit now: bending the knee did jack poo poo, what stopped the Holocaust was foreign invasion of the nation trying to systematically exterminate them. Turns out nobody tried bribing the Germans into stopping because that would have been loving stupid. Absurd Alhazred posted:Bend the knee and accumulate capital until they rise as a nation was basically what Salam Fayyad, the former Prime Minister of the Palestinian Authority, was trying to do for years. Guess what - you can't really accumulate much capital under a regime that actively undermines your supply chain, sporadically interrupts your law enforcement through refusing to hand over tax money to pay them, persistently sabotages the ability of your people to get educated abroad, or to come back once they have, and constantly cracks down on your local training facilities. Also that factory this discussion started over wasn't some gold mine that would have made Palestine rich, turns out boostrapping and working minimum wage work won't make you rich in a first world nation, and it sure as poo poo doesn't work in an occupied poorer nation!
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Oct 31, 2014 03:37
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Absurd Alhazred posted:I ask MIGF again, like I have plenty of times in this thread, given how Israel punishes cooperation and rewards violence and struggle in strategic terms, while punishing violence and rewarding cooperation in the very short term, how is a two-state solution going to even come about? Why are you putting any onus on the Palestinians, considering that all of their factions have done the best they could within their constraints, only to get shat upon? Human development with an ultimate project aim of state development in a region where a state is most likely to be achieved. The onus is upon Palestinians because they are the lessor factors in thr Israel/Palestine issues. Everyone gets shat upon everywhere; create somewhere you won't get shat upon, and seize the opportunity for international legitimacy when the time presents itself best.
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Oct 31, 2014 03:38
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My Imaginary GF posted:Israelis bent the knee for generations before that to reach that point in 1947. Relatively speaking, as a developed state, Israelis achieved that peace rather another genocide at the hands of Arab invading armies precisely because they already had those international relations and access to capital markets. Again, you don't know the history. Israel in 1947 was not a developed country with deep international connections, that's pure nonsense. It's economy was growing rapidly but was still almost entirely agricultural, and much of the impressive rate of growth is accounted for by immigration and resulting capital inflows (e.g. the money immigrants brought with them and donations for their support from international Zionist organizations). Industrial production was minimal, and the bulk of the arms they used to resist the Arab armies were supplied by communist Czechoslovakia. It's true to some extent that the Zionist community had attempted to come to an arrangement with the regional power, to the point of essentially offering their services as colonial militia to the UK during the '36-'39 Arab Revolt in Palestine. However this attempt failed because it was rejected by the British, who responded to the unrest by instead conciliating the Arabs at the expense of the Jews (i.e. the '39 White Paper restricting further Jewish immigration to Palestine). And how did the Jews convince the British to partition Palestine? With a military insurgency. Weird, huh? quote:You know another nation in the region which has bent the knee and is on the cusp of independent sovereignity, and have faced worse problems than Palestinians? This is nonsense. The Iraqi Kurds got where they are with a military insurgency. Saddam Hussein would never have allowed them to build anything had he the means to stop them. Furthermore Saddam did have the means to stop them, and Kurdistan would have been crushed by him if not for the military intervention of the USA in the first Gulf War and the subsequent No-Fly Zone enforcement. If you're suggesting that all the Palestinians need is for the US military to destroy the IDF and then enforce a No-Fly Zone over Palestinian airspace to give them the protection they need to build a state, then I guess I'd be willing to go for that.
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Oct 31, 2014 03:42
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My Imaginary GF posted:Human development with an ultimate project aim of state development in a region where a state is most likely to be achieved. The onus is upon Palestinians because they are the lessor factors in thr Israel/Palestine issues. Everyone gets shat upon everywhere; create somewhere you won't get shat upon, and seize the opportunity for international legitimacy when the time presents itself best. With expanding settlements, time is not working to the benefit of a two-state solution. On the other hand, now that Israel is repeatedly making GBS threads itself in front of company, Palestine is doing quite well internationally. Let me turn this on you: what is it exactly that Palestinians are risking by doing all of this UN work?
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Oct 31, 2014 03:43
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My Imaginary GF posted:Those drat jews and their control over the Palestinian Monetary Authority has been holding back Palestinian development, I tells ya! Their control over trade, borders, taxation and resources does, though, or do you deny that?
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Oct 31, 2014 03:43
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My Imaginary GF posted:Ok. Go and try. There is a legal process through which results will be achieved.
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Oct 31, 2014 03:45
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rudatron posted:Name the authority that is willing and able to protect Palestianian interests. The Palestinian Authority, to the extent that it is able.
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Oct 31, 2014 03:48
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My Imaginary GF posted:FYI, I assume everyone in foreign policy is a self-interested rear end in a top hat willing to screw you over the moment you view them as a repeat player and they view you as a single-time player. The policies I support stem from that assumption. And then you go on about how Israel is a 'friend' of the US. Okay, buddy.
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Oct 31, 2014 03:54
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