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My Imaginary GF posted:The Palestinian Authority, to the extent that it is able. rudatron posted:Name the authority that is willing and able to protect Palestianian interests. Try again.
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Oct 31, 2014 03:54
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DrProsek posted:Try again. I think the only answer you'll accept is that no-one in power with authority to change policy on the issue cares.
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Oct 31, 2014 03:56
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My Imaginary GF posted:seize the opportunity for international legitimacy when the time presents itself best. So you don't necessarily have an issue with the Palestinian state being recognized? I'm trying to give you the benefit of the doubt here, do you think that the best way for Palestinians to establish their state is by putting pressure on Israel through the UN and using the rule of law/judiciary system to gain legitimacy?
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Oct 31, 2014 03:57
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My view of foreign policy is that it should not be something determined by lobbyists or worthless think-tanks who talk a big game about pragmatic realism and fold when you use logic that refutes their pre-ordained solution to every problem. Israel has little to offer us compared to cheaper and more pliable clients. We should cut them off immediately. If they pay us tribute they can get their UNSC protection again but only if they give up 51% of their MK seats for US appointment.
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Oct 31, 2014 04:00
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Panzeh posted:My view of foreign policy is that it should not be something determined by lobbyists or worthless think-tanks who talk a big game about pragmatic realism and fold when you use logic that refutes their pre-ordained solution to every problem. Israel has little to offer us compared to cheaper and more pliable clients. We should cut them off immediately. If they pay us tribute they can get their UNSC protection again but only if they give up 51% of their MK seats for US appointment. *cuts off Israel completely* *witnesses birth of ethnically homogenius eretz yisrael* HOW COULD THIS HAVE EVER HAPPENED?!
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Oct 31, 2014 04:02
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My Imaginary GF posted:*cuts off Israel completely* Dawg, if they could do that themselves, they would have already.
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Oct 31, 2014 04:03
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Panzeh posted:Dawg, if they could do that themselves, they would have already. They can. What do you think is holding them back?
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Oct 31, 2014 04:05
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My Imaginary GF posted:They can. What do you think is holding them back? You think the US money spigot would stop if they had done that? You AIPAC guys always find a way to keep it flowing no matter what Israel does. It isn't the US money they're worried about, it's the rest of the world.
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Oct 31, 2014 04:09
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My Imaginary GF posted:They can. What do you think is holding them back? ...the fact that if they would do it, the world would cut them off. Now, if you would apply this to all their wrong actions, why do you think they would go full insanity and self-destruction instead of giving up the apartheid and colonialism in exchange for their standard of living? What makes Israel different from any other first world country facing sanctions and international isolation? DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 04:12 on Oct 31, 2014 |
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Oct 31, 2014 04:10
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DarkCrawler posted:...the fact that if they would do it, the world would cut them off. Now if the world cuts them off, whats stopping them?
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Oct 31, 2014 04:12
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My Imaginary GF posted:Now if the world cuts them off, whats stopping them? Nothing, but I suppose the destruction of the state of Israel shortly thereafter would be a consolation prize. We could always do regime change in Israel and install a real client if it gets to be a problem.
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Oct 31, 2014 04:13
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My Imaginary GF posted:Now if the world cuts them off, whats stopping them? I think what he's getting at is that the bottom line and peoples wallets are more important to them than going full fascist
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Oct 31, 2014 04:14
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SBJ posted:I think what he's getting at is that the bottom line and peoples wallets are more important to them than going full fascist I think for certain individuals, thats true. For a majority of the lower classes? Panzeh posted:Nothing, but I suppose the destruction of the state of Israel shortly thereafter would be a consolation prize. Why would Israel be destroyed after? You'd finally have a one-state solution that regional actors are willing to work with. And if you truly believe regional actors give a poo poo about Palestinians, you're drinking the kool-aide. Like it or not, Israel is the only state in the region that cares what the final outcome is for Palestinians. My Imaginary GF fucked around with this message at 04:18 on Oct 31, 2014 |
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Oct 31, 2014 04:16
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My Imaginary GF posted:I think for certain individuals, thats true. For a majority of the lower classes? They don't matter. They don't get a say. Because they are poor. This is your logic from earlier remember?
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Oct 31, 2014 04:17
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My Imaginary GF posted:I think for certain individuals, thats true. For a majority of the lower classes? I think this is literally the first time you've considered the opinion of any country's lower classes.
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Oct 31, 2014 04:17
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My Imaginary GF posted:Now if the world cuts them off, whats stopping them? So you think Israelis love oppressing Palestinians more then having food on the table, being able to travel abroad, being able to pay for their kid's lives, having a job, not dying in a massive brutal conflict etc. Again, why are they this bloodthirsty in your opinion?
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Oct 31, 2014 04:17
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Panzeh posted:And then you go on about how Israel is a 'friend' of the US. Okay, buddy. Yeah, it's not just that his arguments are wrong, it's that they're not even logically consistent in their wrongness. Like this side conversation I'm having with him, he initiated the thread by talking about how we could achieve "true peace" by everybody submitting to the hegemonic powers and concentrating on trade, right? Then when I asked him for an example he said Israel, I point out that Israel has been fighting military actions more-or-less continuously since 1947 (arguably earlier), so he points out that Israel got in a position to do that by securing itself as a state by doing what he said (submission to the hegemonic powers and engaging the capital markets). Still wrong, but even worse it doesn't even follow its own reasoning. He started out saying this was the path to true peace, and that nobody would care about fighting after they started making money: quote:Step 4: Buy whatever crowns you want, who cares about crowns any more? We're all too busy making money to give a poo poo.
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Oct 31, 2014 04:19
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DarkCrawler posted:So you think Israelis love oppressing Palestinians more then having food on the table, being able to travel abroad, being able to pay for their kid's lives, having a job, not dying in a massive brutal conflict etc. If someone keeps hitting a man, and the man begins to starve because others quit selling him food, he's not going to ignore the man that kept hitting him. EvanSchenck posted:
*process has gone on from significantly longer than just 1880. 80, more like.
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Oct 31, 2014 04:20
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My Imaginary GF posted:
Every poo poo thing Israel does can be traced back to this mentality. "People did it to us in WW2 so it's ok if we do it to others now."
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Oct 31, 2014 04:25
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My Imaginary GF posted:If someone keeps hitting a man, and the man begins to starve because others quit selling him food, he's not going to ignore the man that kept hitting him. So you don't have an answer? Why would Israelis choose total ruin, potential civil war, and the end of their state if they can avoid that just by stopping Palestinian oppression? DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 04:29 on Oct 31, 2014 |
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Oct 31, 2014 04:26
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My Imaginary GF posted:If someone keeps hitting a man, and the man begins to starve because others quit selling him food, he's not going to ignore the man that kept hitting him. Throughout this discussion, I have noticed you seem more loyal to Israel than the US in foreign policy affairs.
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Oct 31, 2014 04:27
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I'm pretty sure that waiting for a couple thousand years (roughly) and then starting a new batch of violent colonial conflicts is not considered a solution.
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Oct 31, 2014 04:27
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DarkCrawler posted:So you don't have an answer? Why would Israelis choose total ruin, potential civil war, and the end of their state if they can avoid that just by stopping Palestinian oppression? Because that is what they believe they will face if they did what you desire. Duh. Corbeau posted:I'm pretty sure that waiting for a couple thousand years (roughly) and then starting a new batch of violent colonial conflicts is not considered a solution. If their cause is true, and about more than just Jews, it can survive the test of time. If it is not, it won't.
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Oct 31, 2014 04:28
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Corbeau posted:I'm pretty sure that waiting for a couple thousand years (roughly) and then starting a new batch of violent colonial conflicts is not considered a solution. Off-topic: how many thousands of years do I need to wait for you to resume your LP of Stalker?
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Oct 31, 2014 04:29
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My Imaginary GF posted:Because that is what they believe they will face if they did what you desire. Duh. But they don't believe that. Settlements are motivated by greed, not fear.
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Oct 31, 2014 04:30
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SBJ posted:Off-topic: how many thousands of years do I need to wait for you to resume your LP of Stalker? Probably around the time we see lasting peace in the middle east. Nice to know someone out there remembers that LP though.
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Oct 31, 2014 04:31
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DarkCrawler posted:But they don't believe that. Settlements are motivated by greed, not fear. Tell that to Absurd Alhazrad's dad and see what he says.
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Oct 31, 2014 04:31
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My Imaginary GF posted:If their cause is true, and about more than just Jews, it can survive the test of time. If it is not, it won't. No, waiting a couple thousand years in order to start more conflicts is not considered an acceptable solution under modern morality. Unlike a couple of thousand years ago.
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Oct 31, 2014 04:34
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My Imaginary GF posted:Tell that to Absurd Alhazrad's dad and see what he says. I think he would say that Israeli Jews have right to that land and its resources. I don't think anyone has tried to make the argument that shipping civilians to West Bank makes them more safe. In fact West Bank civilians are way less safe then the ones in Israel proper and most of them are there because of the economic benefits.
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Oct 31, 2014 04:35
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Corbeau posted:No, as in "that is not considered an acceptable solution under modern morality." Unlike a couple of thousand years ago. Modern Morality: A Noted Quality of Mid-East Politics DarkCrawler posted:I think he would say that Israeli Jews have right to that land and its resources. I don't think anyone has tried to make the argument that shipping civilians to West Bank makes them more safe. In fact West Bank civilians are way less safe then the ones onIsrael proper. Why don't we let Absurd Alhazrad ask and see what Israeli dadchat opinion is?
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Oct 31, 2014 04:35
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My Imaginary GF posted:Modern Morality: A Noted Quality of Mid-East Politics What should happen is different from what will. I honestly don't see any peaceful and moral solution to this conflict. Expelling or exterminating the Palestinians is not morally acceptable though.
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Oct 31, 2014 04:36
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My Imaginary GF posted:Tell that to Absurd Alhazrad's dad and see what he says. If we're bringing in parents (an escalating cliché in Hebrew, by the way), the only thing that caused my Dad to be jocked into realpolitik was seeing the Israeli death toll after the ground invasion in Gaza. So I would say if cutting off US auto-rearmament means Israelis have to pay in Israeli soldiers to keep all parts of the occupation up, they are going to listen to reason very quickly. If we're being all realpolitik and not considering that one of those soldiers could be my brother who's going to be drafted in a couple of years. Also, yeah, Dad actually does buy the "settlements make us safe" bullshit. But so loving what? Take away the status quo option and everybody needs to start reconsidering. Stop coddling Israel, these people are loving adults, force them to act the part.
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Oct 31, 2014 04:37
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Corbeau posted:What should happen is different from what will. I honestly don't see any peaceful and moral solution to this conflict. Nor do I. I do, however, see an outcome that America can live with, and an outcome that America cannot abide. I should hope it obvious where I stand on what outcomes America would be willing to live with. Absurd Alhazred posted:If we're bringing in parents (an escalating cliché in Hebrew, by the way), the only thing that caused my Dad to be jocked into realpolitik was seeing the Israeli death toll after the ground invasion in Gaza. So I would say if cutting off US auto-rearmament means Israelis have to pay in Israeli soldiers to keep all parts of the occupation up, they are going to listen to reason very quickly. If we're being all realpolitik and not considering that one of those soldiers could be my brother who's going to be drafted in a couple of years. And if a solution that brings eternal peace to eretz yisrael could be found while minimizing ground casualties for Israelis? Say, settlements making the rest of Israel safe?
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Oct 31, 2014 04:38
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My Imaginary GF posted:Nor do I. I do, however, see an outcome that America can live with, and an outcome that America cannot abide. I thought America doesn't give a poo poo about I/P anymore because none of its important regional partners do. Try to keep your insider information straight, Rahm.  My Imaginary GF posted:And if a solution that brings eternal peace to eretz yisrael could be found while minimizing ground casualties for Israelis? Knock it out of the park, Rahm. Note that all the "solutions" you've offered in the past are easily debunked with an easy reading of recent and non-so-recent history of the region, though, so I'm not holding by breath.
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Oct 31, 2014 04:39
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My Imaginary GF posted:Why don't we let Absurd Alhazrad ask and see what Israeli dadchat opinion is? Why is that relevant? Most settlers are motivated by economic benefits, those who aren't are motivated by manifest destiny ideology, neither has poo poo to do with safety and security.
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Oct 31, 2014 04:39
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DarkCrawler posted:Why is that relevant? Most settlers are motivated by economic benefits, those who aren't are motivated by manifest destiny ideology, neither has poo poo to do with safety and security. Zionism: Noted Ideology Motivated by Financial Considerations Gee, where have I heard that before?
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Oct 31, 2014 04:41
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My Imaginary GF posted:Zionism: Noted Ideology Motivated by Financial Considerations Zionism is dead. It's been done. What we have now is Manifest Destiny and Moving Where It's Cheaper.
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Oct 31, 2014 04:42
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I'm pretty sure a combination of economic and ideological motivations are firmly behind every colonial power in the history of forever.
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Oct 31, 2014 04:42
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Absurd Alhazred posted:I thought America doesn't give a poo poo about I/P anymore because none of its important regional partners do. Try to keep your insider information straight, Rahm. Also for some reason MIGF has decided the extermination of the Palestinian people is cool, America can live with that. Economic sanctions on Israel? AMERICA CANNOT ABIDE BY THIS!!?! Yo MIGF, a good realpolitiker would have asked by now the big questions like "Can we just genocided all Arabs and create homelands for Jews, Roma, Kurds, and anyone else who needs room", you suck at your gimmick.
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Oct 31, 2014 04:42
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Absurd Alhazred posted:I thought America doesn't give a poo poo about I/P anymore because none of its important regional partners do. Try to keep your insider information straight, Rahm. Ok, how about this for a solution: Employ an ethnic or religious minority to settle in disputed territory; make it known that they must accept casualties because those guys want to kill them. However, you don't care if those guys were to all disappear. In fact, nobody really cares if they do. Btw, here are some guns, radios, and we're willing to provide heavy weapons systems on an as-needed basis so long as you undergo our training to use them. Does that plan reduce casualties for Israelis proper? DrProsek posted:
Would it surprise you to learn that this, in more or less words, is the mainstream--and moderate--position in American politics?
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Oct 31, 2014 04:44
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