Israel Palestine Megathread: Chickenshitgate

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Israel Palestine Megathread: Chickenshitgate

MonsieurChoc: Oct 12, 2013; Every species can smell its own extinction.

Nationalism is a cancer upon this world. It has caused death and destruction all around the world, and never helped anyone.

# ¿ Jul 10, 2014 21:10

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ¿ Jun 1, 2024 21:19

MonsieurChoc: Oct 12, 2013; Every species can smell its own extinction.

Bob le Moche posted:

What about the ruling classes it helped them a lot

I am a filthy lefty-commie, so gently caress the ruling class.

# ¿ Jul 10, 2014 21:13

MonsieurChoc: Oct 12, 2013; Every species can smell its own extinction.

TheImmigrant posted:

Nationalism hasn't done the Palestinians any favors, that for sure.

Well, yeah. Israeli nationalism has been kicking Palestinians in the face for decades now, with no end in sight.

# ¿ Jul 10, 2014 21:24

MonsieurChoc: Oct 12, 2013; Every species can smell its own extinction.

TheImmigrant posted:

Israel has authorized ground operations in Gaza. I predict civilian deaths, each of which will be worth more than 100 dead Syrians. If you want your death to count, you need to be killed by Jews or Europeans or Americans.

What the poo poo!? Do you even read what you write before posting? A shitton of innocent people are going to die and you just want to score cheap political points? What kind of sociopath are you.

# ¿ Jul 10, 2014 22:06

MonsieurChoc: Oct 12, 2013; Every species can smell its own extinction.

Volkerball posted:

Is there any sources other than humvees and tanks on the border? Twitter is awfully quiet for there to be an impending invasion of Gaza.

I just saw the Israeli reprensatative to the UN on tv, saying they were going to crush Hamas once and for all.

# ¿ Jul 10, 2014 22:10

MonsieurChoc: Oct 12, 2013; Every species can smell its own extinction.

Hellbeard posted:

Oh.
Now I get it.
You intended it to be ironic.
I can't be expected to guess as much in a discussion such as this; for me the majority of opinions here are bizarro-dimension absurdities.

Most people's opinion can be boiled down to "Israel is being really lovely to Palestinians". Would you describe that as a bizarro-dimensional absurdity?

# ¿ Jul 10, 2014 23:26

MonsieurChoc: Oct 12, 2013; Every species can smell its own extinction.

Hellbeard posted:

Well, just look one post below yours where Israelis deserve to be killed. One page back the statement was made that there are no Zionist civilians, they are all targets. Read back in the thread where shooting missiles into Israel is hand waved away as either too ineffective, a morally justified action or inescapable human reaction. That's strange to me.

I've been trying to understand how a person can reach a point where they can assert that civilian casualties are the ultimate bad thing, but it's fine to shoot at civilians. You can't tell me everyone is being ironic here.

Rockets, deadly rockets, indiscriminate full blown military artillery ammunition is raining down on our cities. People here are saying "well, that's not as bad as the ammunition Israel has" and comparing body counts and talking about "proportionality". Proportionality isn't "you kill one of my guys, I kill one of your guys" or I'm allowed to use deadly force only if you succeed in killing some of my people. It's completely off-the-wall-bonkers, in my opinion.

If I read, as my compatriots are being bombarded, that not enough of them are dying to justify fighting back as a result of what's a natural "venting" of anger, the ability to detect irony is lost.

You can look back and see a chart where a certain "ceasefire" has been maintained and only 50 or so mortars and rockets were being shot at civilians every month. Obviously an acceptable amount for any reasonable person and to use military force against the offenders, as they prepare the means for an attack on your own territory, is aggression and bloodlust. That doesn't seem bizarre to you?

How about comparing the death toll from fireworks to artillery bombardment of cities(of course, without compensating for population size)? Isn't it strange that a person can say to themselves that it's OK to try and kill random people as long as you don't succeed enough?

That's what I mean by bizarro-dimension. "Israel being lovely to Palestinians" may be somewhere in there, but it's not what these arguments boil down to for me.

Look, it is lovely that rockets are being shot at Israel, but these rockets are being shot for a reason. Note that I am not saying that I condone these rocket attacks. This is very important. Anyone attacking another human being is terrible. However, it is important to understand why these things are happening. And the reason is that Israel is committing atrocities on Palestinians daily. So they fight back. When they tried non-violent ways of fighting back, they got brutally put down. So they try to fight back with whatever weapons they got. Is it terrible that they attack civilians? Yes. But being even worse on them is not going to solve anything. It's only going to make things worse. The only way to solve this conflict is for Israel to stop being terrible.

# ¿ Jul 11, 2014 00:20

MonsieurChoc: Oct 12, 2013; Every species can smell its own extinction.

The thing is, Israel has all the power. The only reason the conflict is still ongoing is because Israel refuse to negotiates. Even when Palestinian negotiators offered everything Israel had ever asked, including Jerusalem, Israel refused. And they continue to treat the people living in Gaza and the West Bank in ways that I can only refer to as criminal. Water and food is heavily controlled and often not enough, aid money is diverted and almost never completely given, buildings are randomly bulldozed for no reasons, all traffic is controlled at checkpoints, leading to things like food rotting before reaching a city or women dying of childbirth because they couldn't reach the hospital on the other side of the checkpoint, etc.

Tell me, Hellbeard, if you lived in those conditions, what would you do?

# ¿ Jul 11, 2014 00:38

MonsieurChoc: Oct 12, 2013; Every species can smell its own extinction.

Hellbeard posted:

Let's all focus on my misreading of the chart and ignore the incursion via tunnel into the sovereign territory of Israel as a way to justify shooting missiles on civilians.

Because the settlement aren't an incursion into the sovereign territory of Palestine? Come on, that's a terrible argument.

it also ignores the whole thing about Palestinians lacking food and water and those tunnels serving to smuggle those in as well.

# ¿ Jul 11, 2014 00:40

MonsieurChoc: Oct 12, 2013; Every species can smell its own extinction.

Hellbeard posted:

At the time there were no settlements on the Gaza strip and settlements are not a tunnel for military use.
The food smuggling tunnels are going out the other side into Egypt.

What the gently caress are you talking about? The whole thing started because of goddamn settlers!

# ¿ Jul 11, 2014 00:45

MonsieurChoc: Oct 12, 2013; Every species can smell its own extinction.

Hellbeard posted:

Yeah, I'd like to see your reaction when an artillery barrage rains down on your city as you're cowering in the gutter. I bet you'd be all like "that was a funny inconvenience and I'd like my government to have a ceasefire diplomatic discussion with the people who are shooting at me".

I'm pre-empting your conclusion that if attempting to kill people is not successful they don't have the moral right to defend themselves. What's the question for, otherwise?

You really need to start seeing Palestinians as human beings. Then maybe you'd understand.

# ¿ Jul 11, 2014 01:53

MonsieurChoc: Oct 12, 2013; Every species can smell its own extinction.

You ask about motive. Well, what about yours? You're shooting their civilians to create terror, you're stealing their lands, cutting off their water supplies, bulldozing their houses, cutting down their trees, blocking off all travel using checkpoints, etc.

You keep talking as if Israel was simply defending itself from an attack, yet everything points to Israel being the aggressor. Worse, the oppressor.

# ¿ Jul 11, 2014 02:13

MonsieurChoc: Oct 12, 2013; Every species can smell its own extinction.

Even if Hellbeard's argument was right (it isn't) and that the rocket attacks justified Israel's attack on Palestine, it in no way justifies the terrible living conditions that Israel forces on the Palestinians.

# ¿ Jul 11, 2014 02:17

MonsieurChoc: Oct 12, 2013; Every species can smell its own extinction.

Looking at it, Sderot was founded during Operation Barak, wherein the Palestinian village of Najd was taken from it's rightful inhabitants, who were forcibly exiled into Gaza.

So yeah.

# ¿ Jul 11, 2014 02:27

MonsieurChoc: Oct 12, 2013; Every species can smell its own extinction.

Kaal posted:

Right because Jews are robots and they're not allowed to react to being bombed and sent to the hospital. Meanwhile Palestinians have massive street parades celebrating rocket attacks and shouting death to Zionists, but that's ok because they're allowed to have a human response to a crisis.

That assumes Palestinians have the money to organize street parades. They don't, because Israel keeps all the aid money that is being sent to Palestine.

# ¿ Jul 11, 2014 02:29

MonsieurChoc: Oct 12, 2013; Every species can smell its own extinction.

Hellbeard posted:

What options are there? Should we accept being bombarded simply because the enemy is so cowardly as to imbed itself in civilian areas with the intent of causing harm to it's own constituents?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMO-_qEpgg0

I don't want vengeance, I don't want harm to befall any Palestinian, I want them to have good and normal lives, to be prosperous and secure. But how else can a country react when it is under attack? Roll over and die?

No, you should negotiate in good faith and stop running Palestine like the loving Warsaw ghetto, goddamit! Is this so loving hard to understand!?

# ¿ Jul 11, 2014 02:36

MonsieurChoc: Oct 12, 2013; Every species can smell its own extinction.

Kaal posted:

Pretty sure that the Israelis didn't bomb their own factory. The people who live there are reacting totally normally. I mean it seems to me that there's a concerted effort in this thread to avoid thinking of Israelis as being human. I know that I have a rep here of being a total Zionist Hasbara Israeli, but the reality is just that I don't see the conflict as being particularly different from so many others going on. Both sides feel frightened and vengeful, for good reason. If there is any value in this sort of discussion, it has to be found in recognizing the legitimacy of each party's experience in the conflict. This thread is at its best when it does that, and is at its worst when it treats the conflict like a football game with an underdog to root for and opposing fans to shout at.

None of that changes the fact that it's the Israeli government keeping the conflict going. It could have ended the whole thing a long long time ago, but instead human beings keep dying every year.

But no, let's not think about how the ruling class is to blame, let's instead point a finger to the ones who suffer the most from the whole thing.

# ¿ Jul 11, 2014 02:46

MonsieurChoc: Oct 12, 2013; Every species can smell its own extinction.

BattleMaster posted:

I think Hellbeard wants there to be rocket attacks. As we saw earlier with his response to the ceasefire graph, when given the choice between 2 projectiles fired at Israel in a month and no Israeli response, or a harsh Israeli response and hundreds of rockets in a month, he picks hundreds of rockets. You can't have your 15 minutes of hate each day unless there's an enemy I guess.

Hellbeard and Kaal have also been dodging the fact that living conditions in Palestine are terrible and it's all Israel's fault. Not a single peep about it. Almost like they don't want to think about it.

# ¿ Jul 11, 2014 02:49

MonsieurChoc: Oct 12, 2013; Every species can smell its own extinction.

Kaal posted:

Then they need to try again with even greater effort - and a willingness to walk away from the table with a lot less than they'd like. Because the alternative is a disastrous forever war they'll never win.

During the Bush years, the Palestinians offered everything Israel wanted and basically caved in on everything, including Jerusalem. Israel refused.

# ¿ Jul 11, 2014 02:59

MonsieurChoc: Oct 12, 2013; Every species can smell its own extinction.

Kaal posted:

Oh I agree that it isn't a tolerable existence, but that still isn't going to make them Israeli citizens. History is pretty clear about life not being fair. Which is again why Palestinians need to seek out a peace process, and it's also why there's little support amongst the Palestinian population for further violence.

That doesn't explain why Israel keep refusing Palestinian offer,s including those that are everything Israel was asking for.

# ¿ Jul 11, 2014 03:26

MonsieurChoc: Oct 12, 2013; Every species can smell its own extinction.

ReidRansom posted:

Like South Africa, Israel may someday find itself bereft of friends, and I'd like to remind them that just as they were brought into this world by a handful of western powers, they can easily (really super easily) be removed from it again by the same.

I don't think it's going to be that easy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samson_Option

# ¿ Jul 11, 2014 03:39

MonsieurChoc: Oct 12, 2013; Every species can smell its own extinction.

Enjoy posted:

This would be the No State Solution

Unfortunately, I believe the Israeli is crazy enough to do it.

Edit: Government! the Israeli government!

# ¿ Jul 11, 2014 03:49

MonsieurChoc: Oct 12, 2013; Every species can smell its own extinction.

TheImmigrant posted:

Israel's complete, forceful ethnic cleansing of Jews from Gaza qualifies as genocide under this definition.

And yet you continue to defend Israel's actions. I mean, look at what you wrote there. Think about it.

edit: gently caress, I thought I didn't realize it said Jews instead of Palestinians. Wow, you are a horrible person TheImmigrant. People are dying, being killed like dogs, and all you can think about is finding a way to make it look good on an internet forum.

This is what loving gets to me, and makes me so loving mad I can barely write coherent sentences. Israel commits daily atrocities, and then uses random incidents as justification for a full-on no-holds-bared massacre of civilian populations, and then these loving assholes come in and defend the monsters. I wonder, if WWII had had internet forums, would we also have fuckers like TheImmigrant and Kaal come in and defend Krystalnacht and the Death Camps in the same manner? They'd probably use the same loving rhetoric.

gently caress the IDF.
gently caress the Israeli Government.
gently caress anyone who defends their monstrous actions.

MonsieurChoc fucked around with this message at 18:25 on Jul 11, 2014

# ¿ Jul 11, 2014 18:18

MonsieurChoc: Oct 12, 2013; Every species can smell its own extinction.

TheImmigrant posted:

A strong leader achieves what is possible, rather than wasting his people's lives trying to accomplish the impossible.

Israel is a fait accompli. It's easy for you armchair revolutionary poseurs to suggest an impossible ethnic cleansing (driving Israelis into the sea is unambiguous ethnic cleansing/genocide), but you are at the end of the day a poseur.

Says actual genocide apologist TheImmigrant.

# ¿ Jul 11, 2014 18:37

MonsieurChoc: Oct 12, 2013; Every species can smell its own extinction.

The fact that you find nothing wrong with these orders calling for the massacre of the enemy in the name of God tells me more about you than everything else you posted in this thread. Tell me, Hellbeard, during your time in the IDF, how many civilians have you brutally murdered? How many children? And did you enjoy it?

# ¿ Jul 12, 2014 04:59

MonsieurChoc: Oct 12, 2013; Every species can smell its own extinction.

OwlBot 2000 posted:

That seems a bit harsh. I'm sure most IDF don't see combat, let alone commit was crimes.

You're right, of course. But seeing this rear end in a top hat dismissing a military officer calling for holy war against the lesser races as nothing really riles me up.

# ¿ Jul 12, 2014 05:03

MonsieurChoc: Oct 12, 2013; Every species can smell its own extinction.

Hellbeard posted:

You know, the whole point of armies is to, sort of, kill the enemy?

If you think they should receive a rousing letter that goes counter to that sentiment that's a little koo-koo.
The enemy in this case is not any Palestinian they meet but any terrorist/paramilitary they encounter.

That's not what the letter says. It pretty uncomfortably singles out all Gazans.

# ¿ Jul 12, 2014 05:13

MonsieurChoc: Oct 12, 2013; Every species can smell its own extinction.

So we now have both Kaal and Hellbeard as apologists of actual genocide. Woo.

# ¿ Jul 12, 2014 05:35

MonsieurChoc: Oct 12, 2013; Every species can smell its own extinction.

The IDF is perpetrating atrocities and war crimes at this very moment. While the obligatory military service (an outdated and barbaric practice which smacks of 19th-century imperialism) makes blanket statement slightly problematic, this doesn't change the fact that the IDF as an organization is currently slaughtering innocent civilians in the name of God.

# ¿ Jul 12, 2014 05:45

MonsieurChoc: Oct 12, 2013; Every species can smell its own extinction.

Xander77 posted:

If in response to "he literally has a penis", then sure.

...

I'm also (kinda) in the IDF, and a new avatar is probably needed to alert people to this fact.

Unlike Hellbeard, you have made some pretty informative spots, and you don't seem to want to drown Gaza in blood.

# ¿ Jul 12, 2014 06:01

MonsieurChoc: Oct 12, 2013; Every species can smell its own extinction.

TheImmigrant posted:

This is hardly controversial. Netanyahu and the fractured Palestinian leadership are both real obstacles to this though.

There is no genocide here, and therefore nothing to discuss further regarding this negative suggestion. I was fishing for affirmative suggestions.

Again, this is not an affirmative suggestion. Why don't we agree to agree that both sides should stop fighting, and congratulate each other for having raised awareness of this issue.

It is not a per se violation of international law to kill civilians while targeting military or quasi-military actors. In the same way, it would not necessarily be a war crime to kill civilians in Omaha while bombing a center for remote-control drone pilots. I do think Israel is negligent and reckless with regard to Palestinians, although disagree that attacks on active militants in Gaza are war crimes simply because Gaza is densely populated.

I'm confused here about whether Gaza is sovereign. Admittedly, I don't see anti-Israel handles (and I say 'anti-Israel' intentionally, as hatred of Israel seems stronger than empathy for Palestinians for many) as individuals, as their rhetoric is so conformist, but I don't think it's settled that Gaza is actually sovereign. The relevant indicium of sovereignty here is control of the territory. If HAMAS, as governing entity, is in control of Gaza, it implicitly endorses rocket attacks from Gaza on Israeli civilians, which are a casus belli. If HAMAS, as governing entity, does not control the territory of Gaza, Gaza does not have sovereignty.

At any rate, assuming for the sake of argument that Gaza is sovereign, and that rocket attacks on civilians in Sderot or Ashkelon are defensive, How do these attacks advance the cause of Palestinian nationalism? This question is for Algeria, or anyone else who cares to answer.

Ad hominem aside, this is actually a good post. In isolation, I'm sick of the whole thing too. The intractability of the conflict is the main reason why I've never made aliya. I play soccer with a couple of Palestinians here in the States, and have no desire to 'understand' why Israelis and Palestinians hate each other, especially when we get along just fine in the States. I wade into the debate on D&D because I'm alternately appalled and bemused by the rhetoric of the anti-Israel lemmings. Then again, as SedanChain states in what I'm sure is an unintentional admission of his motivation, "uncool people like [my]self" don't know how to be cool with regards to this conflict. Woe betide me, one with uncool principles and positions. Perhaps if I begin to wear a German army jacket and a keffiyeh, I can make up for my uncoolness. Because, like, you know, positions on international issues are all about being cool.

Known genocide apologist TheImmigrant, seen here once again defending genocide and ethnic cleansing.

# ¿ Jul 12, 2014 17:46

MonsieurChoc: Oct 12, 2013; Every species can smell its own extinction.

TheImmigrant posted:

You are not very smart.

That may be so, but I at least don't try to defend the systematic oppression of a group with the end goal being either their extermination or expulsion.

Here's a question, and if you refuse to answer I will take it as a 'no':
Is there any justification for the continuous terrible living conditions in Gaza and the West Bank caused by Israel?

# ¿ Jul 12, 2014 18:11

MonsieurChoc: Oct 12, 2013; Every species can smell its own extinction.

TheImmigrant posted:

Yes, although not a justification that satisfies me. Israel is nowhere near proactive enough, but it does have a duty to protect its citizens. In war, the losing party's citizens often suffer terrible living conditions, and this is not categorically unjustified.

Now, answer this question: How do attacks on Israeli citizens advance the cause of Palestinian nationalism?

Holy poo poo you actually answered a question. The answer paints you as a terrible human being, but you answered it so go you. So, according to you, what the Israeli government has done, and is continuing to do, to the Palestinians is justified because they lost a war? Holy poo poo. Do you realize how horrible that opinion is? And why?

Anyway, to answer your question: Attacks on Israeli citizens advance the cause by reminding Israel that the Palestinians exist. The average Israeli can't just shut their eyes and forget them, as they want to do. It forces them to remember that they are living on stolen land, and that the people they stole the land from are still alive, and they are still suffering from what Israel has done to them. It doesn't advance their cause in getting a country, and attacking civilians is not something I condone, but there are some advantages to be gained form these attacks. Also, peaceful protests have been treated the same way as full-on terrorist attacks by Israel, so Palestinians have nothing to lose.

# ¿ Jul 12, 2014 18:34

MonsieurChoc: Oct 12, 2013; Every species can smell its own extinction.

rscott posted:

How do you live with the cognitive dissonance required to proclaim rocket attacks that are so minor that most Israelis don't even think about them are war crimes but indiscriminately bombing hospitals, refuge camps, schools and homes as justifiable actions?

By being racist.

# ¿ Jul 12, 2014 19:38

MonsieurChoc: Oct 12, 2013; Every species can smell its own extinction.

Back in... I wanna say 2006, but it could be 2005 or 2007 or something like that, I was studying Human Sciences at Ahuntsic College. There was a thing where there would be special conferences centered on Human Sciences for a week. We had to go see at least two. I went to see a conference on the state of Tibet (which was extremely shocking and disturbing, but is off-topic) and one on Gaza.

Back then, I didn't really have an opinion on the Israel-Palestine conflict. I knew two groups were killing each other and it was sad, but I didn't really know what was going there or the history or anything else. This conference opened my eyes. It was held by a journalist who worked for Radio-Canada at the time (can't remember her name, and Google isn't helping) and she's spent a long time in Gaza. She brought back pictures, videos, testimonies, statistics, etc. And she spoke out about how she couldn't broadcast any of it because "people didn't want to see that".

The Israeli government, by the way it treats the people living in Gaza, and to a slightly lesser degree in the West Bank, is showing itself to be no better than the likes of Apartheid-era South Africa or any other crazy dictators. Anyone trying to justify these actions shows him- or herself to be a monster without human empathy.

# ¿ Jul 12, 2014 20:43

MonsieurChoc: Oct 12, 2013; Every species can smell its own extinction.

Randomly found this video while looking for info online. I just started watching so I'm not sure how true or bullshit it is.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=etXAm-OylQQ

# ¿ Jul 12, 2014 21:09

MonsieurChoc: Oct 12, 2013; Every species can smell its own extinction.

Isn't there a lot of Bedouin in the Negev that aren't recognized by the Israeli government.

# ¿ Jul 13, 2014 00:35

MonsieurChoc: Oct 12, 2013; Every species can smell its own extinction.

Look, I think we can all agree the creation of Israel was a terrible idea and in an ideal world the Israeli would go back to their real country (Germany, Russia, etc.) instead of staying on lands they stole at gunpoint during living memory. But in the real world we live in such a thing is impossible. We're at, what, the third generation of Israelis? Yeah, the ship has sailed. Instead focus should be given on forcing Israel to stop it's ongoing genocide of the Palestinian population and giving them some manner of a country.

# ¿ Jul 13, 2014 17:55

MonsieurChoc: Oct 12, 2013; Every species can smell its own extinction.

Umiapik posted:

Haha, I was just watching that. I wish we'd see more of those sort of extended debates on the news: that format really allows for the usual bullshit talking points to be properly confronted and refuted.

What show were you guys watching? Sounds interesting.

# ¿ Jul 14, 2014 09:28

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ¿ Jun 1, 2024 21:19

MonsieurChoc: Oct 12, 2013; Every species can smell its own extinction.

Welp.

# ¿ Jul 15, 2014 06:41

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Israel Palestine Megathread: Chickenshitgate

«‹›5 »