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I assume there's an element of "you're just like the Moral Majority or Warriors in Christ." People who name their group for being moral or for being militantly in favor of something nice almost always turn out to be huge hypocritical assholes. Except almost no one described as a Social Justice Warrior actually calls themselves that unironically, so it doesn't really work.
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Jul 19, 2014 00:52
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oh no, the tumblrites
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Jul 19, 2014 00:56
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SunAndSpring posted:There's a couple bad groups on Tumblr and Reddit, especially poo poo Reddit Says, that make what social justice is supposed to be (supporting those who are marginalized and their rights) into just another way of trolling people. So, people in opposition to it all can just point to one of these blogs and say, "See? This is what social justice is!" and discredit it. At what point does supporting marginalized groups become trolling, I guess? How inconvenient does it need to be to you to qualify, I guess? We are probably drifting a bit from the nominal wheelhouse of TG at this point, but from what I recall I am not remembering many social movements going anywhere or getting anything done by not becoming at least somewhat inconvenient. People in opposition are going to hate them anyway, regardless of how polite they are. It is just 2014 and there are different methods of communication available. People looking for excuses to dismiss them are going to find those excuses, no matter how much a credit to their kind you would consider their behavior. Of course there are going to be fringe elements which are a hindrance; reasonable people give these the credit they deserve. Someone who considers Fred Phelps' church to be an all encompassing example of Christianity is showing their own biases there. Someone who sees a bomber as indicative of all Muslims is, again, mostly just telling us about themselves. Winson_Paine fucked around with this message at 01:01 on Jul 19, 2014 |
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Jul 19, 2014 00:57
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Evil Sagan posted:The prevalence of "bad" social justice groups is greatly exaggerated to justify the dismissal of legitimate issues. If anyone is using triggered Superwholockians as a reason to ignore you or insult your position, they're either idiots or purposefully taking a dishonest approach to shut you down. Once again I find myself indebted to Sagan for summing up what I meant using far fewer words.
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Jul 19, 2014 01:02
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In my experience SJW is just code for "cares about something I don't" and for the life of me I cannot understand why anyone would listen to something that uses it as a pejorative.
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Jul 19, 2014 01:17
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I'm, no sarcasm, no irony, no nothing, just all-out sincere, cheered up to see people that haven't been embittered by long years in the trenches of Livejournal.
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Jul 19, 2014 01:20
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Effectronica posted:I'm, no sarcasm, no irony, no nothing, just all-out sincere, cheered up to see people that haven't been embittered by long years in the trenches of Livejournal.
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Jul 19, 2014 01:23
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FactsAreUseless posted:Of course we're not bitter. Look at my avatar. Look at how positive I am. God drat is that positive.
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Jul 19, 2014 01:29
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One time I was called a Social Justice Warrior despite not aligning with the stereotypical Tumblrite traits ("Kill Whitey!" "TRIGGER WARNING hetero sex," etc). So while I think that bad and ill-informed SJ folk exist, and can be annoying when you run into them, I think that a lot of times people throw it as an insult when someone appears concerned about sexism in geek media or transgender rights in general.
Libertad! fucked around with this message at 01:37 on Jul 19, 2014 |
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Jul 19, 2014 01:30
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Reminder that I'm the Alpha Bizarrely Labeled because I am individually "the RPGnet Crowd" according to GMS.
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Jul 19, 2014 01:37
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Plague of Hats posted:Reminder that I'm the Alpha Bizarrely Labeled because I am individually "the RPGnet Crowd" according to GMS. I suppose the irony of that insult is that I never see you post on rpgnet.
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Jul 19, 2014 01:38
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I'd like to share something kinda awesome. My conversations with Mearls yesterday and today have revealed that he's actually turning this around to be something awesome. He's said that he going to try to arrange a roundtable discussion with marginalized parts of the D&D community, with the purpose of discussing ways to be more open to them (he specifically mentioned art). What's impressed me is that he has been clear that this is going to be a visible, promoted thing - he recognizes that the transparency of such discussions is important. Take that for what you will, but it has me feeling good on this Friday.
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Jul 19, 2014 01:39
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Plague of Hats posted:I assume there's an element of "you're just like the Moral Majority or Warriors in Christ." People who name their group for being moral or for being militantly in favor of something nice almost always turn out to be huge hypocritical assholes. Except almost no one described as a Social Justice Warrior actually calls themselves that unironically, so it doesn't really work. Yeah, it's like Gau making that joke about the MH17 crash in the same breath as he referred to his persecution by Zak S. Alien Rope Burn posted:What is so bad about social justice and moral outrage, anyway? Nothing's wrong with social justice, social justice is great! Conflating it with moral outrage is a mistake. Moral outrage is all about being everyone's guilty conscience and acting holier-than-thou like Tollymain was earlier in the thread. "You're basically evil if you disagree with me but don't worry, in my endless magnanimity I forgive you". Moral outrage doesn't give you a way to redeem yourself and make reparations because moral crusaders want to lord their moral superiority over everyone at all times. Moral crusades are led by people who can only feel as if they belong by excluding others. It's a matter of exploiting real social problems so you can feel better about yourself and it's poo poo. Social justice is something like Maltose getting Sage to apologise to the people whose feelings he hurt. Sure Maltose was a bit abrasive and lovely at times, but in the scheme of things that's not important. Social justice is only achieved by making the right people uncomfortable. He gave Sage a way to make it up to those people and let up once Sage apologised, and that's fantastic! It's achieved something beyond making a moral crusader feel better about themselves.
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Jul 19, 2014 01:39
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Libertad! posted:One time I was called a Social Justice Warrior despite not aligning with the stereotypical Tumblrite traits ("Kill Whitey!" "TRIGGER WARNING hetero sex," etc). So while I think that bad and ill-informed SJ folk exist, and can be annoying when you run into them, I think that a lot of times people throw it as an insult when someone appears concerned about sexism in geek media or transgender rights in general. It's almost like when privileged white people dismiss people of color as "thugs," "gangsters," or "welfare queens" despite the fact that they're successful and well-educated contributing members of society. But these two things are probably unrelated, so never mind.
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Jul 19, 2014 01:41
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Gau posted:I'd like to share something kinda awesome. There's an LGBT forum I hang out on called Intangibility.org, and they'd be very interested in hearing about this. Is this going to be an online thing? Because if so you should post a link to it once you get the URL.
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Jul 19, 2014 01:42
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Bigup DJ posted:acting holier-than-thou like Tollymain i'm not sure where people get this idea that i think i'm better than them
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Jul 19, 2014 01:42
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Gau posted:I'd like to share something kinda awesome. Two ways to take this: 1) He's sincere and is honest in his intent. He truly wishes to make amends. 2) He realizes people are pissed and not buying NEXT because of it and is hoping this will boost sales. I am an optimist so I hope for the former, but, the fact he even did it in the first place, makes me think the later.
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Jul 19, 2014 01:42
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Bigup DJ posted:Yeah, it's like Gau making that joke about the MH17 crash in the same breath as he referred to his persecution by Zak S. Or like making a post denouncing a time when someone did something lovely, got called on it, and then apologized while also, in the same breath, congratulating someone who did something lovely, got called on it, and then apologized.
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Jul 19, 2014 01:43
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Tollymain posted:i'm not sure where people get this idea that i think i'm better than them That last red text title
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Jul 19, 2014 01:44
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Tollymain posted:i'm not sure where people get this idea that i think i'm better than them From your actions, basically. Moral crusaders do what they do because they're terrified of the idea that they're worse than other people.
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Jul 19, 2014 01:45
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being angry =/= self-righteousness being bought a redtext title by alouicious =/= much of anything other than alouicious disliking me
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Jul 19, 2014 01:48
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Bigup DJ posted:From your actions, basically. Moral crusaders do what they do because they're terrified of the idea that they're worse than other people. No, that's moral cowards.
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Jul 19, 2014 01:49
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Gau posted:I'd like to share something kinda awesome. The thing about Mearls, all talk about the quality of Next as a game aside and whether somebody threw which edition under the bus or whatever, aside from any of that stuff, is that he's a guy put in charge of the flagship game of the hobby by a company that's more than a guy and a computer in a garage and he decided, of his own volition, that a dude like the Pundit was worth reaching out to and crediting with special thanks. It's hard for me to take anything Mearls says about walking back the toxicity of the hobby at face value because like I said earlier, the Pundit isn't some devious master of subterfuge here. He's a guy who posts longwinded screeds about how people who pretend to be elves in a nonapproved fashion are a cancer killing the hobby. There's no way that anyone could accidentally reach out to someone like that without knowing exactly the sort of person they're dealing with, which means that Mearls knew what an rear end in a top hat the Pundit was, knew what sorts of people were fans of someone like the Pundit, and deliberately made a statement that said it's totally cool if you're a huge miserable rear end in a top hat, the biggest game on the block will happily invite you to be a consultant and give you a shout-out. So frankly I'm not viewing this as anything more than another shallow attempt at pandering on par with the "open playtest" because if Mearls gave the slightest poo poo about toxicity or marginalization in the hobby then he had three years to find plenty of better people out there to consult on his vanity project than a couple of complete fuckheads, but he decided that validating them was more important than literally anyone else out there.
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Jul 19, 2014 01:51
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If it's true that Mearls is willing to dismiss input from those too heavily "associated" with SA, it's hard to feel too optimistic about the effort, even if it all smells like roses otherwise. EDIT: Also what Kai Tave said.Libertad! posted:I suppose the irony of that insult is that I never see you post on rpgnet. Well, I post on RPGnet more than he does nowadays! 
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Jul 19, 2014 01:53
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Tollymain posted:being angry =/= self-righteousness Callouts go to FYAD, or take it to PMs. Or Twitter. Not here. I have given this thread a long loving leash in a lot of respects but if it comes down to people jaccusing each other over red texts particularly when there appears to be no reason for it can take their personal drama generation elsewhere.
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Jul 19, 2014 02:10
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BattleCON pbp is fun and more people should try it
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Jul 19, 2014 02:17
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Winson_Paine posted:Callouts go to FYAD, or take it to PMs. Or Twitter. Not here. I have given this thread a long loving leash in a lot of respects but if it comes down to people jaccusing each other over red texts particularly when there appears to be no reason for it can take their personal drama generation elsewhere.
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Jul 19, 2014 02:19
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Kai Tave posted:So frankly I'm not viewing this as anything more than another shallow attempt at pandering on par with the "open playtest" because if Mearls gave the slightest poo poo about toxicity or marginalization in the hobby then he had three years to find plenty of better people out there to consult on his vanity project than a couple of complete fuckheads, but he decided that validating them was more important than literally anyone else out there. Sure, I'm still skeptical. It's not like they're going to put out Rainbow Kingdom: A Guide for Queer Gaming anytime soon. But even if he posts an L&L about D&D being inclusive and for everyone it's at least establishing that while Tarnowski and Zak worked on the project, he's not condoning their philosophies. I'll take a small victory, if we can get one.
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Jul 19, 2014 02:33
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Plague of Hats posted:If it's true that Mearls is willing to dismiss input from those too heavily "associated" with SA, it's hard to feel too optimistic about the effort, even if it all smells like roses otherwise. EDIT: Also what Kai Tave said. Am I an SA or RPGnet poster? I don't even know anymore.
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Jul 19, 2014 02:36
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Mormon Star Wars posted:Am I an SA or RPGnet poster? I don't even know anymore. You'll see the purple creeping into the site background soon enough!
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Jul 19, 2014 02:37
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Hashtag Yoloswag posted:The Something Awful Traditional Games community may not be for you. Now where did I say I hated helping out marginalized groups because some dudes take it too far and become jerks about it? e: Winson_Paine posted:At what point does supporting marginalized groups become trolling, I guess? How inconvenient does it need to be to you to qualify, I guess? Well, sometimes people do the same bad poo poo the racist, sexist, etc. people do: doxxing, harassing people, saying slurs against that group, and so on. It sends a bad message and lets the bad people play the victim. I'm sorry that I worded that post badly. I just don't like it when people sink to the level of the bad guys to fight them. I know these people aren't the entirety of the social justice community, but they do make everyone in it look worse for wear and become fuel in the fire for jerks to discredit the movement. SunAndSpring fucked around with this message at 02:55 on Jul 19, 2014 |
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Jul 19, 2014 02:37
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Gau posted:Sure, I'm still skeptical. It's not like they're going to put out Rainbow Kingdom: A Guide for Queer Gaming anytime soon. But even if he posts an L&L about D&D being inclusive and for everyone it's at least establishing that while Tarnowski and Zak worked on the project, he's not condoning their philosophies. He is though, that's the thing. He is and he did by inviting them to consult and crediting them alongside people like Ken Hite and Robin Laws. Mike Mearls made a statement that Tarnowski and Zak S are A-OK in the Good Book of D&D. I'm not sure how else you can read his decision to quite deliberately reach out to those guys specifically and invite them to be consultants on the latest edition of the biggest, most recognizable game this hobby has to offer. He didn't do it by accident, he wasn't drawing names out of a hat. Mearls can't have it both ways here, you can't invite a couple of bigoted, gatekeeping, harassing assholes to work on your pet project and then just wave away the association. If he doesn't condone their philosophies then there's a way he could walk that back which is to nix their names from the book and publicly apologize for associating total shitbirds with D&D while disingenuously trying to talk a good game about inclusivity. But I know he's not going to do that, so.
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Jul 19, 2014 02:45
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Kai Tave posted:he wasn't drawing names out of a hat. From what I know about Mike Mearls I wouldn't put it past him.
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Jul 19, 2014 02:57
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SunAndSpring posted:Now where did I say I hated helping out marginalized groups because some dudes take it too far and become jerks about it? Don't worry, you don't have to say it.
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Jul 19, 2014 02:57
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Hashtag Yoloswag posted:Don't worry, you don't have to say it. I don't know why you think passive-aggressiveness is a good thing to practice, on the internet or anywhere.
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Jul 19, 2014 03:00
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SunAndSpring posted:Now where did I say I hated helping out marginalized groups because some dudes take it too far and become jerks about it? The problem is, as said, those people are a fuckin tiny bit, and anyone who thinks those legitimately represent anything are real dumb and probably already have some strong biases. Like yea those retarded rear end people who do stuff like reblog about how using #travel on African pictures is basically colonialism are real dumb, but if you think in any way that one idiot represents anything but a hilariously broken individual you probably already have some views about what you're looking at.
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Jul 19, 2014 03:02
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Tatum Girlparts posted:The problem is, as said, those people are a fuckin tiny bit, and anyone who thinks those legitimately represent anything are real dumb and probably already have some strong biases. Like yea those retarded rear end people who do stuff like reblog about how using #travel on African pictures is basically colonialism are real dumb, but if you think in any way that one idiot represents anything but a hilariously broken individual you probably already have some views about what you're looking at. This is right. People who are willing to consider a small circle of shitheads representative of an entire group inevitably have their minds made up about that group beforehand. Hashtag Yoloswag posted:Don't worry, you don't have to say it. gently caress off. This is more "There is no way out and you are irredeemable" moral crusader bullshit.
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Jul 19, 2014 03:06
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Tatum Girlparts posted:The problem is, as said, those people are a fuckin tiny bit, and anyone who thinks those legitimately represent anything are real dumb and probably already have some strong biases. Like yea those retarded rear end people who do stuff like reblog about how using #travel on African pictures is basically colonialism are real dumb, but if you think in any way that one idiot represents anything but a hilariously broken individual you probably already have some views about what you're looking at. Well I know that these people are a tiny fraction of the actual body. It just frustrates me a lot that these crazy people are always trotted out by other crazy people as a way to make themselves seem sane by comparison. I just recently found a word for it on RationalWiki, nutpicking, and it pretty much sums up this crap.
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Jul 19, 2014 03:07
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You're the one who trotted them out in the first place.
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Jul 19, 2014 03:12
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neongrey posted:You're the one who trotted them out in the first place. Well OK, let me put this in local parlance: I regularly trot out allusions to old sci-fi, the Pali Canon, etc. in my daily life, and fly off the handle when people misinterpret them or are plain ignorant of them.
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Jul 19, 2014 03:15
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