Rulebook Heavily posted:People are already doing this and you know what they loving get? Twitter harassment and threatening emails and bombardments from personal fanbases from shitlords like the ones that are now getting money for appearing in the biggest RPG product of the year. The acknowledgment earned is that there's two paragraphs of wonky text in the book and then a dude who actively stalks trans people online and tells them to commit suicide is lurking in the credits. Avery Mcdaldno gets harassed Jesus Christ.
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Jul 4, 2014 04:24
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Swagger Dagger posted:Literally nobody that just plays RPGs every now and then know who Zak S or RPG Pundit are. This has been said but you can't fall back on the "they're just two small voices in the crowd and totally ignorable" defense when they're being given a shoutout on page one of the one single biggest tabletop RPG on the market that has historically more or less been the voice that defines the entire hobby. I might take advice on emailing WotC, because that really isn't acceptable no matter how you cut it.
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Jul 4, 2014 04:36
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I'm really curious what they actually contributed. Didn't their names end up in the playtest a long time ago? e: vvv Like I think the problem is this is D&D we're talking about, not some obscure OSR thing that has their names on it. zachol fucked around with this message at 04:44 on Jul 4, 2014 |
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Jul 4, 2014 04:42
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Reene posted:This has been said but you can't fall back on the "they're just two small voices in the crowd and totally ignorable" defense when they're being given a shoutout on page one of the one single biggest tabletop RPG on the market that has historically more or less been the voice that defines the entire hobby. I said it doesn't excuse that, I just don't think anyone needs to quit the hobby and stop supporting the people who are doing good things over it. Not buying Next and writing about a session of The Quiet Year does good. Edit: I don't really know where I'm going with this other than I think that it's a "win" for jerks if this makes good people throw up their hands and leave. long-ass nips Diane fucked around with this message at 04:45 on Jul 4, 2014 |
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Jul 4, 2014 04:43
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Reene posted:This has been said but you can't fall back on the "they're just two small voices in the crowd and totally ignorable" defense when they're being given a shoutout on page one of the one single biggest tabletop RPG on the market that has historically more or less been the voice that defines the entire hobby. Do you know a good e-mail address? Because I am dubious about the PR e-mail listed on their contact page and the alternatives appear to be a website-based form-fillable that is intended for "game support." They don't seem to have an appropriate company feedback venue. EDIT: Jesus getting onto their forums is a chore. That Old Tree fucked around with this message at 04:53 on Jul 4, 2014 |
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Jul 4, 2014 04:47
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Like okay I am not laying this at grassy gnoll's feet (hence "just a little") but let me lay it out, as an indie kinda person: The responsibility for the hobby, the responsibility for making it better, needs to come from up top too. It can start with grassroots stuff, but if poo poo rains down from above then that's that, everything is covered in poo poo and most of the effort lies in shovelling poo poo. The effort, honest to goodness strong movement, comes largely from above. And unlike indie authors, who tend to catch flak because they are so close to their audience (or because some shitlord arranges a hit list of acceptable targets - Zak S has certainly done that), the big RPG authors who aren't in the trenches have the social pull to push for something better, to nudge in the right direction, if they can be convinced it's a worthy cause. And hey, that's happening! And indie voices were involved! But we aren't just the hobby indie authors build. We're also the hobby the games build, the big ones. And we hear, over and over and over again, on the indie level, "just make better games and improve the hobby". Well, sorry if I get angry at hearing that phrase, because it feels like telling me "just shovel the poo poo some more". e: (So yeah sup grassy gnoll, sorry you were today's straw on the back)
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Jul 4, 2014 04:50
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Galaga Galaxian posted:I'd never heard of either until today. Then again I mostly stick to here or occasionally google search RPG.net for specific games that've caught my interest. I actually decided I did not like him when she linked a video all swoony like LOOK HOW SMART HE IS that was basically him being a complete rear end in a top hat in arguing with an old man at a conference about painting techniques. awesome_.
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Jul 4, 2014 04:51
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Yeah, this hobby has a serious problem with assholes with platforms making GBS threads things up, which creates larger problems when it reinforces toxic attitudes that are dangerously and sometimes lethally pervasive in society.
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Jul 4, 2014 05:00
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Libertad! posted:For those who want to vote with their wallets, should we cook up a list of suggested game designers/publishers? Chuubo's Marvelous Wish-Granting Engine has done everything in Jenna's power to be inclusive to pretty much everybody.
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Jul 4, 2014 05:04
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It's pretty easy to get angry when literally everywhere I've gone to talk about this the overwhelming response has been a nonstop demand for proof and rationalizing away any and all proof actually given, and then going "Well maybe I'm just too logical, besides is it REALLY that hurtful that they're on the credits page?"
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Jul 4, 2014 05:06
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"I'm too logical." - no rational person ever
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Jul 4, 2014 05:11
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I think what a lot of people are missing is exactly why they're on the credits page. I can pretty much guarantee it's not because they gave valuable feedback. WotC bought their silence, and they bought it cheap. They flew these two wastes of oxygen out to the fabulous city of RENTON WASHINGTON for a couple of days of sitting in a conference room and shaking some hands. Then they put their names in the book and now they have two less shitheads that are going to poison the well on 5e, because now no matter what WotC does with DnD these guys names are on it and they can't bitch about it. They bought a little bit of positive publicity, and silenced a lot of negative publicity for the cost of some plane tickets and ink. Let me re-iterate that, these two chucklefucks are so worthless and desperate for any form of validation that putting their name in a book was all it took to buy their silence.
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Jul 4, 2014 05:16
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Most people are just going to take a list of contributors that includes actual professionals at face value, is the thing.ProfessorCirno posted:It's pretty easy to get angry when literally everywhere I've gone to talk about this the overwhelming response has been a nonstop demand for proof and rationalizing away any and all proof actually given, and then going "Well maybe I'm just too logical, besides is it REALLY that hurtful that they're on the credits page?" By the way: The first thing I saw on Facebook today was you arguing with Piestrio of all people about this. Lost causes, dude!
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Jul 4, 2014 05:25
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Ettin posted:By the way: The first thing I saw on Facebook today was you arguing with Piestrio of all people about this. Lost causes, dude! How should I know it's Piestrio  . Also, I'm giving up. Korea Tabletop Games page, you are a lost cause.
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Jul 4, 2014 05:27
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Bucnasti posted:I think what a lot of people are missing is exactly why they're on the credits page. I can pretty much guarantee it's not because they gave valuable feedback. I doubt that they paid for airfare for them.
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Jul 4, 2014 05:29
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Ettin posted:Most people are just going to take a list of contributors that includes actual professionals at face value, is the thing. Yeah this is the thing that needs to be made abundantly clear. Nobody who's flipping through the book that they just picked up is going to know who these guys are. So they have no reason to believe that the people listed in it are not credible profesionals.
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Jul 4, 2014 05:30
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Rulebook Heavily posted:People are already doing this and you know what they loving get? Twitter harassment and threatening emails and bombardments from personal fanbases from shitlords like the ones that are now getting money for appearing in the biggest RPG product of the year. The acknowledgment earned is that there's two paragraphs of wonky text in the book and then a dude who actively stalks trans people online and tells them to commit suicide is lurking in the credits. Whoa, when did this happen? Sorry, I mostly just lurk here but I don't really follow everything that's going on.
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Jul 4, 2014 05:32
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grassy gnoll posted:Be the change you want to be, motherfuckers. Run some games that address the issues you care about, publish your own games or supplements on the indie markets, get at least one new person a year to play our dumb games of pretend, 'cause that's what it takes to make this hobby not suck. Ignoring the problem does not magically make it go away. If anything, it makes it worse.
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Jul 4, 2014 05:35
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Blue Star posted:Whoa, when did this happen? This blog has a much more thorough take on organized harassment in the hobby than I could give you. It focuses on a specific event, but don't be fooled by pseudonyms; our man Z S was involved. If you mean the credits thing specifically, RPGPundit and Zak S are in the credits of D&D 5e as consultants. Consider that in light of the above link.
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Jul 4, 2014 05:42
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Rulebook Heavily posted:This blog has a much more thorough take on organized harassment in the hobby than I could give you. It focuses on a specific event, but don't be fooled by pseudonyms; our man Z S was involved. They were fairly transparently chosen because they have fanbases, though, and unless you can really threaten a major loss of sales (considering that if they pay attention to SA they probably wrote us off as a lost cause long ago) there's not much you can do beyond expressing your distaste.
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Jul 4, 2014 05:59
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Effectronica posted:They were fairly transparently chosen because they have fanbases, though, and unless you can really threaten a major loss of sales (considering that if they pay attention to SA they probably wrote us off as a lost cause long ago) there's not much you can do beyond expressing your distaste. Why yes, that's what I can do. I can inform people. Now you can too. Fly freeeee
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Jul 4, 2014 06:06
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Bucnasti posted:I think what a lot of people are missing is exactly why they're on the credits page. I can pretty much guarantee it's not because they gave valuable feedback. Does someone have more on this? I think I completely missed something. What is WotC buying their silence about?
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Jul 4, 2014 06:15
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zachol posted:Does someone have more on this? I think I completely missed something. What is WotC buying their silence about? They are both people known for spewing vitriol who also have large fanbases. That vitriol could have potentially been aimed at Next, but hiring them as 'consultants' effectively eliminates this as a concern. Of course, it's only a concern if you are interested in the patron-ship of the fans of these two people. DalaranJ fucked around with this message at 06:23 on Jul 4, 2014 |
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Jul 4, 2014 06:20
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zachol posted:Does someone have more on this? I think I completely missed something. What is WotC buying their silence about? About D&D Next not being the second coming of their personal Interpretation Gygax's great vision. Or so I would guess.
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Jul 4, 2014 06:25
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Blue Star posted:Whoa, when did this happen? I once got into an argument with Zak on his blog. He e-detectived me, down to my real name and physical address, and then made snide "jokes" about how mentally ill I am and asked if I'd considered suicide. This is not just a couple of bloggers getting repped, this is the Republican National Committee thanking the Westboro Baptist Church and Answers in Genesis for their important contributions.
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Jul 4, 2014 08:29
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Swagger Dagger posted:Literally nobody that just plays RPGs every now and then know who Zak S or RPG Pundit are. Or you post about social justice issues on the Internet and they've literally tried to get their fans to harass you into losing your livelihood and committing suicide. Bucnasti posted:I think what a lot of people are missing is exactly why they're on the credits page. I can pretty much guarantee it's not because they gave valuable feedback. I think you're missing the fact that the overwhelming majority of people who read that section will see it as "cool, Zak S and RPGPundit have been legitimised by the biggest RPG publisher in the industry, that means they're important examples to emulate now." Lemon-Lime fucked around with this message at 09:11 on Jul 4, 2014 |
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Jul 4, 2014 09:08
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It's sad that 5e did something like that. I wanted a clean fight over nerd poo poo. But this issue does have to be recognized. It would be great if they'd done the gender thing, made the art more inclusive, generally just been positive. Instead, this renders their other efforts hollow, contrived. They've actually brought in a couple of terrible people who would perhaps otherwise be an unfair characterization of the fans they're courting. Yeah, there are toxic elements in the community, but they didn't have to pander to that. But now, it's undeniable, that IS who they're courting. They thanked them in the credits right next to Ken Hite and Robin Laws! A Catastrophe fucked around with this message at 09:28 on Jul 4, 2014 |
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Jul 4, 2014 09:24
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Lemon Curdistan posted:I think you're missing the fact that the overwhelming majority of people who read that section will see it as "cool, Zak S and RPGPundit have been legitimised by the biggest RPG publisher in the industry, that means they're important examples to emulate now." I think you're missing the point that the overwhelming majority of people who buy the product won't read the credits, and that the overwhelming majority of the small number of people who do read the credits won't give a rats rear end about who either of these people are. These guys are insignificant shitheads that make a lot of noise in a small room. They are pathetic fucks that are not worthy of my hatred, only my pity and scorn. They thrive on conflict because it validates their insane fantasies about imaginary enemies attacking them and their way of life, which makes them feel that their tiny lives are somehow important. Stop giving them that and they will slink away to the dark corner where they belong. If you want to do something about them follow Grassy Gnolls advice and roll d20s erryday. Make the room bigger so their voices don't carry. The best revenge is
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Jul 4, 2014 09:39
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The advice is good but I don't think we need to ignore that those are bullshit people perpetuating an oppressive environment in the hobby/industry and that D&D associating with them is also bullshit. Please buy good games from good developers and let your friends know that D&D is bullshit.
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Jul 4, 2014 09:41
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Yeah, I dunno. I'm not buying because they're in there. And I'll tell people about them when they bring the edition up. But in the end, they are just credited as consultants, so I'm not really gonna think less of someone if they decide that it's not big enough a reason to hold off buying. But that's just where I draw my lines.
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Jul 4, 2014 10:10
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Evil Sagan posted:The advice is good but I don't think we need to ignore that those are bullshit people perpetuating an oppressive environment in the hobby/industry and that D&D associating with them is also bullshit. Please buy good games from good developers and let your friends know that D&D is bullshit. I'm not ignoring that they're lovely people, and I don't think anyone else should either. What I am doing is refusing to give them the validation they seek by being angry about this. These are literally crazy people, they spend their time defending themselves from imaginary enemies on the internet. Being angry about them having their fake names in a book reinforces their belief in their own importance. When you treat this situation as what it is, a simple PR move to preemptively shut a couple of shitbirds up, it denies them validation. When you treat them as the insignificant turds that they are others will do the same. As for DnD being bullshit, I don't know and I really don't care, I've got lots of good games to play already. If you like DnD5 buy it, if you don't like DnD5 then don't buy it. If you're just looking for something to be angry about, chose something other than two guys who are just going to feed off your anger.
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Jul 4, 2014 10:21
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It's a well known fact that if you ignore harassers for seven days and seven nights they turn into mist and blow away in the morning breeze.
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Jul 4, 2014 10:23
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Bucnasti posted:These guys are insignificant shitheads that make a lot of noise in a small room. They are pathetic fucks that are not worthy of my hatred, only my pity and scorn. They thrive on conflict because it validates their insane fantasies about imaginary enemies attacking them and their way of life, which makes them feel that their tiny lives are somehow important. Stop giving them that and they will slink away to the dark corner where they belong. Spoken as someone who has not been on the receiving end of a campaign of toxicity; who has not had their real name and address posted so these people's fan base have a real, physical target to stalk and harass; has never had their sexuality, gender, mental health, or whatever outed; has never had people actively try to not just force them out of their chosen industry but to harass them with the stated goal of driving them to suicide. "Just ignore them" or "don't get angry" or "just rise above" is total loving bullshit.
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Jul 4, 2014 10:49
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DigitalRaven posted:"Just ignore them" or "don't get angry" or "just rise above" is total loving bullshit. I never said to ignore them, I said to treat this situation as what it is, a trivial bit of PR to shut up two insignificant voices.
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Jul 4, 2014 10:51
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Well ignoring racism, bigotry, and sexism has worked really well for the civil rights movement so far.
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Jul 4, 2014 10:52
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Bucnasti posted:I never said to ignore them, I said to treat this situation as what it is, a trivial bit of PR to shut up two insignificant voices. Just because nothing they've said has affected you personally doesn't mean they've had an insignificant effect on others. And it might be a bit of PR but it's a bit of PR that places their names in front of many, many people who would never have heard of them before.
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Jul 4, 2014 10:53
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neongrey posted:Just because nothing they've said has affected you personally doesn't mean they've had an insignificant effect on others. And it might be a bit of PR but it's a bit of PR that places their names in front of many, many people who would never have heard of them before. More importantly, it lends huge amounts of credibility to them and their fanbase. I didn't want to get into this, but it's pretty much the epitome of privilege to say "well, despite the fact that these guys have potentially made you fear for your life, they're insignificant overall. I don't know why people are so upset!"
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Jul 4, 2014 10:56
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There are a lot of good reasons to ignore lovely people and you probably should, but "they'll totally go away" doesn't always work, especially when it's not being done collectively by a community. I permabanned people early in my modding career (like eighteen months ago) who are still brutally fisting a tear-stained RPGnet body pillow every other week. I don't engage because who gives a poo poo, not because I expect them to stop dry-humping their bamboo hate waifu.
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Jul 4, 2014 11:12
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Yeah. Yeah, that's some seriously hosed up poo poo there. Pundit I could give a drat about-- he's toxic as hell and I don't like him being in there but the other has actively shown he will go to horrible, real-life-affecting extents over this poo poo. And I don't really care if someone decides that him being a consultant on the work isn't enough to stop them from buying it. But I care that people know that this man is a loving stalker. Preferably before they buy so they can take that into account or not. But if they don't find out until after. That's fine, too.
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Jul 4, 2014 11:13
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Gau posted:More importantly, it lends huge amounts of credibility to them and their fanbase. Fine, knock yourselves out, have fun with your boycott or whatever you plan to do, please give my regard to Barbara Streisand when you're all done.
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Jul 4, 2014 11:14
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