TG July Chat Thread: Now with 20% less uncanny valley

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Traditional Games > TG July Chat Thread: Now with 20% less uncanny valley

neongrey: Feb 28, 2007; Plaguing your posts with incidental music.

Man, so I really didn't like the 'sex' paragraphs in the new D&D-- some choices of language I was not happy with at all (like hermaphroditic, or the dwarf misgendering joke, or 'man trapped in a female body').

So when RPZip was talking about jargon and page space and all of that on IRC I was like 'gently caress it, I can do it in the same amount of words'. It's not perfect, but hey~

(I also put it up on my g+ here)

quote:

Original:

Sex

You can play a male or female character without gaining any special benefits or hinderances. Think about how your character does or does not conform to the broader culture's expectations of sex, gender, and sexual behavior. For example, a male drow cleric defies the traditional gender divisions of drow society, which could be a reason for your character to leave that society and come to the surface.

You don't need to be confined to binary notions of sex and gender. The elf god Corellon Larethian is often seen as androgynous or hermaphroditic, for example, and some elves in the multiverse are made in Corellon's image. You could also play a female character who presents herself as a man, a man who feels trapped in a female body, or a bearded female dwarf who hates being mistaken for a male. Likewise, your character's sexual orientation is for you to decide.

Total: 150 words
------
1st draft:

Gender Roles

You can play a character of any gender without any mechanical effect, but you can consider how that might affect your roleplay. You might think about how your character's gender and personality relate to their culture's expectations of them. Do people think it's unusual that your fighter is a woman? Did your drow cleric leave for the surface because his temple wouldn't accept him?

Neither do you need to conform to binary notions of gender. Elves and dwarves are often perceived as androgynous in two very different ways, for example. You could also play a character who feels no gender applies to them, or a woman who was born with a male body. Don't forget the prevalence of magic lets you explore these possibilities in ways you couldn't in real life, no matter what your own gender is. Your character's identity is entirely up to you!

Total: 148 words

# ¿ Jul 4, 2014 02:11

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# ¿ May 17, 2024 01:40

neongrey: Feb 28, 2007; Plaguing your posts with incidental music.

We'll see-- I feel like right after release of a product is probably the worst time to send a thing like that though, if you don't want it to be drowned in a sea of "But why didn't you do what I wanted?"

# ¿ Jul 4, 2014 02:27

neongrey: Feb 28, 2007; Plaguing your posts with incidental music.

I'm not talking about the two consultants, I'm talking about the sex paragraph in chargen. Which is innocent of their wrongdoings. Ignorant. But innocent.

# ¿ Jul 4, 2014 02:43

neongrey: Feb 28, 2007; Plaguing your posts with incidental music.

Ettin posted:

Most people are just going to take a list of contributors that includes actual professionals at face value, is the thing.

Yeah this is the thing that needs to be made abundantly clear. Nobody who's flipping through the book that they just picked up is going to know who these guys are. So they have no reason to believe that the people listed in it are not credible profesionals.

# ¿ Jul 4, 2014 05:30

neongrey: Feb 28, 2007; Plaguing your posts with incidental music.

Yeah, I dunno. I'm not buying because they're in there. And I'll tell people about them when they bring the edition up. But in the end, they are just credited as consultants, so I'm not really gonna think less of someone if they decide that it's not big enough a reason to hold off buying. But that's just where I draw my lines.

# ¿ Jul 4, 2014 10:10

neongrey: Feb 28, 2007; Plaguing your posts with incidental music.

Bucnasti posted:

I never said to ignore them, I said to treat this situation as what it is, a trivial bit of PR to shut up two insignificant voices.

Just because nothing they've said has affected you personally doesn't mean they've had an insignificant effect on others. And it might be a bit of PR but it's a bit of PR that places their names in front of many, many people who would never have heard of them before.

# ¿ Jul 4, 2014 10:53

neongrey: Feb 28, 2007; Plaguing your posts with incidental music.

Yeah. Yeah, that's some seriously hosed up poo poo there. Pundit I could give a drat about-- he's toxic as hell and I don't like him being in there but the other has actively shown he will go to horrible, real-life-affecting extents over this poo poo.

And I don't really care if someone decides that him being a consultant on the work isn't enough to stop them from buying it. But I care that people know that this man is a loving stalker. Preferably before they buy so they can take that into account or not. But if they don't find out until after. That's fine, too.

# ¿ Jul 4, 2014 11:13

neongrey: Feb 28, 2007; Plaguing your posts with incidental music.

Making drat sure that people know that man is a motherfucking stalker is not validation.

# ¿ Jul 4, 2014 11:41

neongrey: Feb 28, 2007; Plaguing your posts with incidental music.

Ratpick posted:

Yeah, when I first saw that section I was just really giddy and excited and immediately went on to reblog it on fuckyeahdnd without even stopping to think of some of how poorly worded it was in places. I personally think that it was a cool thing of the D&D people to do, but I'm now also of the opinion that it was really badly worded and problematic. I really liked your take on that paragraph, as it achieves what the original paragraph set out to do with zero of the offensive wording, and since this paragraph is a pretty big talking point at the moment I was wondering if you'd be okay if I linked to your version of the paragraph on fuckyeahdnd?

By all means; I put it on g+ so there would be an easy link for people to pass around if they want it. My version isn't perfect, I think, but I think it shows well how it could be even better within the same allotted space.

(e: You can also use this link to my personal website, which includes some refinements, thoughts, and why I wrote it the way I did)

neongrey fucked around with this message at 03:40 on Jul 5, 2014

# ¿ Jul 5, 2014 01:24

neongrey: Feb 28, 2007; Plaguing your posts with incidental music.

Spincut posted:

I was asked to write about the "inclusivity paragraphs" in D&D and I'd like to point out the RPGPundit and Zak S. mentions in the credits. Is there somewhere definitively that I can point people to or quote that just gives a sum-up of "these people are crazy?"

We can say that these people are awful and toxic since there are people here who have had to put up with their bullshit, but it'd really be helpful to give others something to latch onto that says these people are terrible.

Someone seems to be taking the time to compile quotes with sources here.

It's probably worth emphasizing too that the consultants had absolutely nothing to do with the paragraphs though; there seems to be a persistent thread of confusion there. Those paragraphs do come out of a place of genuine good intention, just... insensitive wording.

# ¿ Jul 7, 2014 21:46

neongrey: Feb 28, 2007; Plaguing your posts with incidental music.

Oh yeah, I'm not saying you're making that connection or even that you're going to suggest it exists... just that because the paragraphs and consultants come up at the same time a lot, it's worth making extra clear that there's no connection, I think.

e: The consultants are a lot worse for being specifically abusive rather than individual moments of transphobia/homophobia/racism/sexism/etc though. You'll never catch mr s using a slur in public, say, but you will catch a lot of argument steeped in misogyny.

# ¿ Jul 7, 2014 21:57

neongrey: Feb 28, 2007; Plaguing your posts with incidental music.

Booooooo, get off the stage.

# ¿ Jul 7, 2014 23:49

neongrey: Feb 28, 2007; Plaguing your posts with incidental music.

Nobody's calling for boycotts, is the thing, and I'm not entirely sure where that's coming from-- I've seen that claim in a few places. There's people publically saying that they themselves are not buying it. There's people publically saying why they're not buying it. But no one is saying, no, you shouldn't buy this, these two consultants are bad.

I'd rather if people didn't-- for reasons I've gone into elsewhere and don't really care to repeat here-- but poo poo, if someone decides to buy it even knowing who those guys are? gently caress. At least they know.

# ¿ Jul 8, 2014 07:18

neongrey: Feb 28, 2007; Plaguing your posts with incidental music.

Gau posted:

This is absolutely, positively untrue. Sage LaTorra is, over the last two days, having an extended Facebook conversation with me as he tries to determine the truth about Zak Smith. From what I've determined, he was skeptical about the accusations but has gone through an eye-opening experience as he has seen Zak's behavior and people have come forward with their stories. He is incredibly concerned. He has gone out of his way to network and find people and get their stories to understand the truth. That's the opposite of ignorant and dismissive.

By the way, thanks for sending him my way RulebookHeavily.

If he's actually coming around that's great but not just an hour or so ago I saw him doing some sad hand-wringing on twitter about how hard it is to truth-is-in-the-middle-guys.

# ¿ Jul 16, 2014 01:58

neongrey: Feb 28, 2007; Plaguing your posts with incidental music.

Yeah like I am all for keeping your cool as much as you can, but using the fact that many people who have been harried and harassed act harassed as a reason to not treat them as credible is ridiculous.

# ¿ Jul 16, 2014 21:04

neongrey: Feb 28, 2007; Plaguing your posts with incidental music.

Halloween Jack posted:

No, the word filter is great. It confuses dumb people who think the forum actually uses filters and that grognards.txt controls the Super Secret SA Paywall for Get Rid of Pesky Moose and Squirrel.

So far as I know, it still filters "rape" to "surprise sex" and that's loving gross, man. And it's not just dumb people who think grogs.txt somehow runs the forums as a whole who see that.

# ¿ Jul 17, 2014 17:16

neongrey: Feb 28, 2007; Plaguing your posts with incidental music.

I think if you are at the point where you are distinguishing trilbies from fedoras, no, you are the demons.

# ¿ Jul 18, 2014 20:52

neongrey: Feb 28, 2007; Plaguing your posts with incidental music.

See if you're too just or moral then some cis hetero white dudes might feel left out.

# ¿ Jul 19, 2014 00:33

neongrey: Feb 28, 2007; Plaguing your posts with incidental music.

SunAndSpring posted:

There's a couple bad groups on Tumblr and Reddit, especially poo poo Reddit Says, that make what social justice is supposed to be (supporting those who are marginalized and their rights) into just another way of trolling people. So, people in opposition to it all can just point to one of these blogs and say, "See? This is what social justice is!" and discredit it.

So basically it's become a buzzword, sort of like "check your privilege", and has lost a lot of meaning because of it.

I rest my case.

# ¿ Jul 19, 2014 00:48

neongrey: Feb 28, 2007; Plaguing your posts with incidental music.

You're the one who trotted them out in the first place.

# ¿ Jul 19, 2014 03:12

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# ¿ May 17, 2024 01:40

neongrey: Feb 28, 2007; Plaguing your posts with incidental music.

Tatum Girlparts posted:

So hey any good RPGs that capture that whole 'Arabian nights' thing? I know like, AD&D had a not-Arabia thing and there's Fire and something from the people who did Legend of the Five Rings, but is there anything more?

I would also love to know about more options in this area.

# ¿ Jul 19, 2014 03:35

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