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ZypherIM posted:While I'm not a fan of wizard supremacy, one big balancing factor that I see almost everyone ignore is to actually put in the material costs and hold the players to them. A perfect example is the Holy Aura someone was complaining about earlier. Yea, the spell is pretty crazy good, it also is level 8 and requires "a tiny reliquary worth at least 1000gp containing a sacred relic". How many tiny reliquaries is the guy hauling around, and how is he getting all the sacred relics? Heres a fun little side note for you. How much stuff does a party have when they reach the point where they can cast a level 8 spell. A fucktonne if the starter kit is anything to go buy. 1000gp doesn't look like much to just let you trivialize a fight. Yeah a 300ft loud knocking sound could be difficult. On the other hand you can just make yourself invisible too right after so it now instead of a downside you can also use the spell as a giant decoy giving it even more potential.
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Jul 4, 2014 10:13
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A Catastrophe posted:Also you can cast silence. The real question is more, how many people hear that knock and then realise that a wizard made it and pretend they didn't hear it.
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Jul 4, 2014 11:59
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A Catastrophe posted:I can imagine the conversation now: They identified there was a rogue because the argument lasted 4 times longer than normal.
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Jul 4, 2014 13:47
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MonsterEnvy posted:I don't think you actually know how this works. That or you just glanced and never did any research. Um.....are you making a troll post or are you serious, I can't tell anymore. He was not describing fighting a player. This was the game, the cleric comfortably sat there and ate the liches spells, and carried every encountered. I literally have no idea what you mean by glanced and never did any research. This is the game he played in.
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Jul 11, 2014 06:44
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MonsterEnvy posted:Do you mean giving monsters class levels in that case it's to make enemies harder. I just said they were not balanced that way not that it can't work. Dont worry the party cleric will be able to roll over it so the rogue should be good to play with himself in the corner so it all balances out you see.
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Jul 11, 2014 07:06
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ritorix posted:Your party had 2 clerics, and one died. Poor July Healbot. You will be missed for your sweet sweet turn undead. Wait turn undead became terrible so I guess we lost nothing.
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Jul 11, 2014 07:10
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MonsterEnvy posted:Well a level 4 Wizard called the Evil Mage in 5e has been marked as CR 1. I don't know his stats exactly but he is not quite the same as a PC of the same level. Honestly we have to wait for actual monsters to come out before we can really tell how this works. Literally the most dangerous thing in the game at the moment is packs of low level wizards spamming magic missiles.
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Jul 11, 2014 07:19
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ritorix posted:That's more words than the whole pbp game. I don't know if thats a fair comparison though, murder in baldur's gate is the worst thing ever.
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Jul 11, 2014 09:14
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MonsterEnvy posted:To be fair the Cleric there was pure luck. But Clerics are a good class though nowhere near as powerful as they used to be. The cleric is still top dog when it comes to the important field of 'doing the martial's job better than them'. Exhibit A) Krag Hack
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Jul 16, 2014 00:55
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Raenir K. Artemi posted:It was gone into way more earlier in the thread, but basically the biggest problem is that monster hp scales waaaaaaay too quickly, making fights turn into long boring slogs unless you just let a caster do 1 save or die. Also the way fights are designed you often up against large packs of monsters that take a while to slog through or the caster uses an aoe.
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Jul 16, 2014 05:09
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Gort posted:While I do agree with pretty much all of the rest of your post, this is based on numbers where the fighter gets no magic items, correct? I think that's a flawed assumption. If this is anything like previous games the fighter will end up with a +5 sword that's on fire for 2d6 extra damage a hit (at the very least, this is just an item I know is in the game) as well as strength-boosting items. Problem is that the game has been stated to be magic item optional. GMs are often going to bypass giving the fighter his required +number weapons.
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Jul 19, 2014 11:00
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Jack the Lad posted:With a +2 magic weapon at level 8, it takes 5 rounds for a Fighter to kill the dragon - approximately twice as long as it takes a Necromancer Wizard's skeleton minions, even if the Wizard is just sitting in a lounge chair drinking a martini. This is still the most D&D thing you can have to be fair.
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Jul 19, 2014 11:12
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Arivia posted:Oh my god that's an incredibly stupid and bad change. The Cult of the Dragon has never had anything to do with the Church of Tiamat, it's all Sammaster's crazed prophecies. That was the entire point of why they were dangerous. I guess Kobold Press couldn't even be bothered to read ONE 3rd Edition book, let alone anything good. The entire plot line opened up with a call back to that one video game you all played about Dungeons and Dragons in order to bring back Bhaal. I dont know what your standard should be for the rest of it.
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Jul 21, 2014 04:24
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MonsterEnvy posted:I don't even bother bringing up his tweets. One of my big issues on the complaints was just because somthings stats are based on how the creature should feel does not mean the math does not work for it. Though I just want Augaust 8th to come. Basic will be updated then and people will have the PHB. This way people can complain about the final product instead of using outdated stuff to make their complaints. Here's the problems I think your not really comprehending. You can have fun with a system that is bad. I play and enjoy pathfinder, a system that is an overcomplicated mess with infinite flaws. I've played in several games of 5e now, I've enjoyed myself but not as a result of the system. The math is very swingy and requires you to spend far too much effort optimizing yourself for any solid payoff. The difference between an optimized and unoptimized player are still fairly big. The system provides very little in the way of roleplaying mechanics beyond some good stuff like the backgrounds, is too complicated for a quick and simple character creation if you want to keep up. On top of all of that the way combat in the game is designed, classes like the wizard and anything that can drop AoE attacks on enemies dominate fights. This leads to other classes to become increasingly less relevant. Additionally ever class now has different methods of regaining their resources so the party either argues about what type of breaks they take and when or they often take full rests which gimp players who repeatedly use short rests (if your resting an hour your generally better off resting a full hour). The roleplaying mechanics often operate at a detriment of other areas so you are crippling yourself if you want to partake in something interesting (unless your a wizard). To top this off none of the DM rules we have seen so far provide any useful guide to running this stuff well. Combat Rating does not provide a clear and easy system for the GM to generate encounters that can be relied upon to provide interesting fights that do not shift the balance between TPKs and a interesting fight for the players to overcome (unless the DM personally figures out each and every monster to understand what, how, why and when they are going to be limiting themselves). The GM has to actively fudge the game to get this to work right. Due to the way CR is designed the game seems structured under the assumption the players fight packs of lower CR monsters (hence why the game is dependent on aoes to clear the field) as equal level CR is incredibly an brutal rocket tag design or comes associated with plenty of gently caress you abilities that simply retract from the players fun. It is impossible to identify what monsters are gently caress you or rocket tag until you break down the monster itself relative to how well your party has optimized and how relevant that optimization is. For example, a CR2 Ogre is a completely trivial encounter to some level 1 parties and will TPK a level 1 party with zero effort depending on the party makeup. This is a huge amount of effort for a GM to go to for virtually zero payoff. Oh yea and some classes are dead weight while others can literally do anything they imagine. The point is that the game is supposed to provide a structure and framework to make everything about it easier. Instead it does none of that. All the work still needs to be done with nothing to assist in the process. Half the rules don't function as intended and as you may notice from mearl's twitter your actively told to just wing it. If nothing in the rules actually help you run the game. Why are you bothering to buy the game and use the rules if you have to do all the work anyway? EDIT: This is not the same thing as putting the control in the GM's hands. The GM always has control over everything regardless of how the game or system works. A system that is absolutely perfect and flawless can be houseruled. A system that has literally nothing in it thats functional can be houseruled. When the GM has to houserule basic and fundamental aspects of the system you are running into the problem of the system itself not being useful to actually solve any problem. If you are forced to houserule basic aspects of the game then you are far better off using an extremely rules-light system which saves you the time to learn rules which are broken and going to be changed anyway. I could go on. If this doesnt give you at least some understanding of why people think this game is dumb I dont know what else to say. kingcom fucked around with this message at 05:27 on Jul 22, 2014 |
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Jul 22, 2014 02:37
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Look buddy, pal, chum. You seem to fail to understand how context works in a lot of these games. Let me explain.MonsterEnvy posted:Along with the concentration check there is also. Casters have much less spells. Spells are not as powerful as they once were. Only one concentraion spell can be used at a time. From what we know of the feat all it lets you do is increase your odds of making the check it does not get rid of it. The Fighter is strong, durable and easily out paces the Wizard when the Wizard is not using it's very limited spell set and because a Wizard has a very limited spell set they are capable of doing anything but not everything and from what we can see the only thing they do better then someone else is aoe damage. You say these spells are limited but really, they aren't. By level 5 the wizard has 9 spells a day and can recover 3 levels of spell slots per hour rest (if your group bothers with these). While your cantrips might not do quite as much as the fighter they have solid chances to hit, are ranged, do very nice effects and have far better bonuses to hit that a fighter will. They dont NEED to burn all their spells on a fight. They can simply pop one aoe or two to clear an encounter or against something like an ogre they can just ray of frost it and kite it forever. A wizard is not going through fights where they are dropping more than 9 spells per day particularly with how quick combat tends to go in this game. 1 or 2 rounds per fight at most. MonsterEnvy posted:Knock is last case scenario that should only be used if their is no other choice as it uses up a valuable spell slot and alerts everything within 300 ft to you. I don't know what you are getting at with the hand spells. Heres the best part about that. Alerting everyone in 300 feet of you means basically nothing. Translating that into a not-terrible measurement system thats about 90m. Essentially your alerting everyone in the building to your presence so stealth is out the window. Guess what, stealth was ALWAYS out the window. There is no group stealth system to protect the party so that idiot fighter in full plate is not going to be able to sneak past. So your options are: send one person in alone, at which point the big door explosion is actually an amazing distraction for that one character. Have the wizard cast invisibility on everyone. At which point who cares about the door. OR three, try to stealth and have half the party inevitably fail this and start the fight which will be loud enough to alert everyone in the building anyway. The Knock spell just speeds all this up. Yeah you can probably use it as a last resort to save yourself a spell slot but really, the consequence isnt really something to take note of. MonsterEnvy posted:People are worried about a pair of letters with out seeing stuff in action. Even if the design is how this monster should be. (Which is the way it should be made in my opinion.) does not mean it does not work in the game. From actually playing and testing out the limited stuff we have of the game CR and the XP value work here. No they are not. The CR swings so massively depending on the party composition, the monster has entirely swinging values based on what defence is targeted (guess what class is allowed to pick which defence they target  ). The CR gives very little indication as to how powerful it is. For example a CR1 wizard is infinitely more dangerous than that ogre unless your party has no casters. MonsterEnvy posted:Casters and Non casters are fairly close in this edition. A caster will only ever out pace the rest of the party when they are blowing all of their spells at once in a single encounter. Which can be bad is something else comes along. Looking at the CR tells me roughly how challenging a creature should be from the starter set. LOL
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Jul 22, 2014 03:13
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Guys, guys come on. Its over.
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Jul 22, 2014 03:27
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Gort posted:The art looks good so far. I didn't much like the poser-esque stuff in the 4e PHB and thought it was often a step backwards from 3rd ed artwork. The art in this edition is pretty good.
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Jul 22, 2014 03:45
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MonsterEnvy posted:One quick breaking of my goal to not post here until August 8th. (Not to argue however) To be really sure of what to call it we should probably wait for the NEXT release.
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Jul 22, 2014 07:13
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Kai Tave posted:D&D Next: the XBone of elfgames. They called the 5th one the 1st one.
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Jul 22, 2014 07:36
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Cassa posted:Not even a listing by spell level first. "But what happens later when warlocks and Druids get wizard spells?" They get 40 pages of alphabetical spells to look through too, I guess. Yea its once a day. Problem is, how often do you think your party is going to be thinking we've got time to take two hours of breaks today but we're not going to take 8 hours because reasons. Given how everyone gets resources back through completely different means, your likely to just pick the one that gets everyone back unless theres a time limit. Theres not a lot of time limits you can put where you've only got two hours but not eight.
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Jul 23, 2014 01:11
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dwarf74 posted:So let's talk about the hour long short rests. The overwhelming problem still comes down to 'If we have the option to get some of the party's resources back or all of the party's resources back, we choose all of them.' The imaginary restriction of a timelimit you need to follow doesn't really come into account when your still blowing an hour for the short rest anyway.
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Jul 23, 2014 04:00
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DalaranJ posted:Ritorix opened my mind so I can see the matrix. And by the matrix I mean Next design philosophy. Right and this inevitably leads into this super DM vs Player conflict where the players are carrying around steel door frames and heavy equipment to seal themselves in and save up a bunch of explosive rune spells on the door every time they need to rest or the players are wrapping the wizard up in bandages and clogging his ears full of wax and covering his bag with a sack all to make sure nothing interrupts his full rest. This is a thing that happens in other games.
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Jul 23, 2014 07:02
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ProfessorCirno posted:Hour long rests are there to have "short rest mechanics" for 4e players, while effectively neutering because gently caress 4e players. People were physically incapable of accepting the notion that people could quickly bandage their wounds and take a breather in 5 minutes.
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Jul 23, 2014 07:23
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FRINGE posted:Thats what it seems like to me. An hour sounds perfectly alright for narrative purposes of bandaging/cleaning/sharpening etc. Five minutes doesnt make sense at all. Bad DMs will still be bad DMs. Why would you not just full rest then if your going to be safe for an hour?
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Jul 23, 2014 09:10
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FRINGE posted:Its also a very minor thing, which was my main point. It really seems like that specific one would fall into the "who cares" bucket. Problem is its not a minor point as has been pointed out. Some classes depend upon having multiple short rests per day to get and use their abilities. Nobody is going to do that when your giving up a huge amount of time to begin with. Everyone is just going to take the full day rest meaning the control to keep the wizard from dominating things is completely irrelevant. Again you either don't rest or full rest. Classes that regain resources of a short rest get screwed. FRINGE posted:Aside from saving time (if youre in a game that uses time for anything that matters), one (old) thing going back to 1e/2e is if doing the old "random encounters" thing, and dont really want to 'really' camp then you take care of your necessary poo poo and get moving. You will either have 0 or 1 rolls-worth of a chance of something bothering you instead of a bunch. Time sensitive scenarios are generally going to mean you won't be stopping for an hour and push on, hurting the classes that depend on short rests. Random encounters encourage really lovely things to happen. It means as a player I want to have a single fight. Rest, trigger a random encounter and rest. Never advancing beyond a single fight at a time to make sure I have plenty of resources left to deal with another random encounter. Nothing will progress and everyone will be fluffing around. Your still getting xp so its not like its even a bad thing to do. That 1 hour time matters as again, some classes depend on getting that short rest to refuel their very limited powers.
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Jul 23, 2014 09:55
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ShineDog posted:So yeah, I have a question. You have pretty much the correct interpretation of what HP actually are. 3.x had the same logic. 5e too. People themselves seem to believe that hp = meat chunks blowing off of people because they have come to the conclusion that D&D is some kind of medieval historical fantasy simulator despite nothing in the mechanics remotely supporting this idea. It primarily comes about as a result of forcing martial characters to be dependent on spell casting characters to function. This is supposed to be a two way street of the spell caster relying on the martial except the spell casting classes often are granted abilities which allow them to replace martial characters in most situations or allow them to support their own resource systems with limited restrictions.
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Jul 23, 2014 13:37
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Kai Tave posted:This stuff is, by the way, why people like the RPGPundit get their hair in a twist over games like FATE, because a lot of "storygames" are designed around the players directly interacting with the narrative on an authorial/metagame level. Games that straight-up acknowledge that they are in fact games and that encourage players to think along lines other than "what would my character do?" piss a bunch of people off for this reason. See I get the opposite problem where games like D&D require me to do so much number crunching theres not point where I try to get into character that involves the system. If I do I'm likely to gently caress myself over because of all the poo poo I need to be paying attention to.
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Jul 27, 2014 05:19
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QuantumNinja posted:This whole session just eats my hope. Thats what they feed on so makes sense.
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Jul 31, 2014 09:10
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ritorix posted:-The 'alternate' human is legal for play, meaning you can start with a feat. A pretty big deal when feats like War Caster and Heavy Armor Master are technically available from level 1. Krag Hack full plate wizard damage reduction to all the things disadvantage to all the things is a go.
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Aug 1, 2014 13:09
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treeboy posted:i always liked the Baldur's Gate magic missile and it's never been replaced by any other.
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Aug 1, 2014 14:41
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Daetrin posted:That is pretty strange. The review is about...well, the actual book. Not the content in the book. I don't think I've ever seen a book review of any sort do that. "The paper binding didn't fall apart in my hands and it really is show some quality gluing. The must have used a 2588 model printing unit that can comfortably fire off several hundred books without needing to double check its alignment. 5/5 stars." All I can imagine is this guy reviewing the book: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yAOhBBEQwE8
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Aug 6, 2014 00:52
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A Catastrophe posted:Certainly the fact that it's a single player CPRG is noteworthy, but it's still a game which is meant to emulate this style of play and where, for instance, a player might want their PC to be their main token in the combats, as opposed to a thug class that doesn't take much tending. I'm fairly certain they've said at one point or another the fighter can be just a passive guy if you want them to just be a tankor you can pick all the active abilities which lowers damage/health but lets you drop effects on things.
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Aug 6, 2014 01:02
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A Catastrophe posted:Most of the people ITT would have been happy with a new approach as long as it was still a good game- they were fans of 4e after all, right? Yea I was actually really looking forward to a minimalist type of game designed to be very easy to get into and play but unfortunately 5e is already cumbersome enough and theres a huge enough disparity between people who optimize and don't optimize that this isn't really a possibility.
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Aug 6, 2014 01:14
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Ferrinus posted:Clearly, superiority dice themselves have just been buffed so significantly that it'd be plain overpowered if you could get back more than one a turn! Yeah plus he can get them back all day. So really he has infinite superiority dice. Thats pretty broken IMO. Can you imagine if a wizard could have his spells back all day? I mean he can control the nature of the universe and he cant do that.
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Aug 7, 2014 02:22
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Chaltab posted:Wait... when you roll initiative--? So you only get them at the start of an encounter and are SOL for the rest of the fight? I didn't pick up on this until you pointed it out. That is hilariously terrible.
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Aug 7, 2014 05:15
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ProfessorCirno posted:So as I've said before, 5e is a game for people who need to play D&D. As someone who doesn't need to play D&D, if this isn't a good game, I'm not interested in it. So I never played D&D until university, how prolific is this mindset. I never really encountered it having not played it as a teen. ProfessorCirno posted:Oh I openly admit I was a huge grog for awhile. Like I'm just glad some of the more foul poo poo I said at the start of 4e is connected to a different name. SKR parachute account spotted.
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Aug 7, 2014 09:56
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AlphaDog posted:Will it be the same squares? Well if your arguing you wont have to actually play the game. You need to think of the positives.
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Aug 9, 2014 05:15
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MonsterEnvy posted:I know your making fun of me, but I do want to actually know what you mean. Did you ever know that your my heeeeeeeero! Your everything I wish I could beeeeeeee!
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Aug 9, 2014 06:07
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MonsterEnvy posted:Or use a Die roller like I do. Not that many people own more then a few d20 anyway. Kobolds are not an issue and have a cool little power. MonsterEnvy posted:Or use a Die roller like I do. Not that many people own more then a few d20 anyway. MonsterEnvy posted:Or use a Die roller like I do. MonsterEnvy posted:use a Die roller kingcom fucked around with this message at 06:42 on Aug 9, 2014 |
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Aug 9, 2014 06:39
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MonsterEnvy posted:Have you analysed and broken them down. No I did not think so. Hmmm I don't think you had time to wait for an answer here. Almost as if you have walked into all this with a completely predetermined outcome and an inability to accept opinions contrary to yours.
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Aug 9, 2014 09:57
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