D&D NEXT: Infinite Posts of the Abyss

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dwarf74: Sep 2, 2012; Buglord

Nancy_Noxious posted:

Is there any professional RPG designer who currently doesn't hate 4e?

Even Rob Heinsoo*, who's on record saying he had to fight against caster supremacy during 4e design, seems to have some regrets — his treatment of martial classes in 13th Age is clearly a step back in relation to their glory in 4e.

*I won't say Heinsoo hates 4e because his Commander class (i.e. 13th Age's Warlord) is a thing of beauty. But he's clearly been damaged by grog criticism of 4e — 13th Age is full of grog-appeasing compromises.

It's... frustrating — instead of going forward, d20 designers got grog-scared and ran away back to the year 2000.

I think that's more Tweet than Heinsoo.

# ¿ Jul 31, 2014 14:48

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# ¿ May 14, 2024 19:12

dwarf74: Sep 2, 2012; Buglord

It put fiat into the hands of all characters rather than concentrating it into full casters.

# ¿ Jul 31, 2014 19:56

dwarf74: Sep 2, 2012; Buglord

Monster design that was fast and actually worked.

Enjoyable DMing.

Characters you didn't need to plan from Level 1.

The ability to run a game without magic items, and it actually functions.

# ¿ Jul 31, 2014 20:05

dwarf74: Sep 2, 2012; Buglord

Peas and Rice posted:

If I had to guess, most of the gamers who enjoy 4E are those who grew up on or were introduced to PC RPGs before tabletop RPGs, and those of us who don't, were introduced to tabletop games first. But that's just a guess.

My group of 35-45 year olds loves 5th ed, for what it's worth.

Bzzzzt.

I'm 39 and have been playing since around 1982, with the Mentzer Basic set. I've played every edition since, and quite a lot of other rpgs besides.

# ¿ Jul 31, 2014 20:08

dwarf74: Sep 2, 2012; Buglord

Kai Tave posted:

It's entirely possible to play 4E as something more than an unending flow of combat encounters, I know this for a personal fact,

Yeah, the session I ran last night had no combat, but plenty of skill use, rituals, investigation, and planning.

There's not a ton of character defining stuff in D&D, period. I have as much or more non combat stuff on a 4e character than on a 1e character, yet nobody complains there's no roleplaying in 1e.

3e, otoh, falls into a weird pit where "roleplaying" = "taking non optimal fiddly bits." like, spending 3 skill ranks on Craft: Basket-weaving. Or fighting with a trident. Or statting up a half orc bard. Or taking Prone Shooter. It's like the game tries to give you mechanical implementations for role playing, so people forget they can roleplay without those fiddly bits.

It's one area where 5e seems to be on the right track, with its inspiration mechanics.

# ¿ Jul 31, 2014 21:25

dwarf74: Sep 2, 2012; Buglord

LFK posted:

I don't hate on the Essentials classes that much, I think 4e definitely had room to step outside AEDU and I like the retro-Power Attack idea.

But, really, if any class is going to get boiled down to "here's your thing, add more dice for bigger boom" it would be the Evoker.

Firebolt at-will. 3x/encounter either upgrade the damage or upgrade the burst. 3x/day SUPER upgrade the damage and burst. Call it the Pyromancer. Done.

I also like Essentials classes, but as a supplement, not a replacement. I think it's cool to have easier or differently structured classes.

Also, you're literally talking about the Elementalist.

# ¿ Aug 1, 2014 16:20

dwarf74: Sep 2, 2012; Buglord

homullus posted:

I am pretty excited about it, because I've been tempted to run something 4e for a while, but every time I think about how fun it would be to run Zeitgeist, I think about all the rest of the stuff in 4e.

I'm running it now. Inherent bonuses help a lot to cut through the bullshit. But there's also very fast leveling, so feats come up a lot, too.

Totally worth it, though. It's awesome.

# ¿ Aug 1, 2014 20:14

dwarf74: Sep 2, 2012; Buglord

ProfessorCirno posted:

Anyone who thinks this has an actual issue.

"I can't be a GM unless the game EXPLICITLY STATES that I'm more important then the players!"

"I can't make GM decisions unless the game FORCES me to!"

Like it's one of those two, and neither one is good.

What the game needs, you see is some sort of MASTER who runs the DUNGEONS.

# ¿ Aug 2, 2014 16:53

dwarf74: Sep 2, 2012; Buglord

Gort posted:

Anyone put all the spells onto cards yet? That would seem to be the obvious way to make slogging through the PHB to find your spells a bit less horrible. When someone has the spell prepped, chuck them the card. Use smarties of different colours to show how many slots you have left and eat them as you cast spells. (or use tokens or some poo poo if you're boring)

Gale Force 9 is ready to sell these cards to you.

# ¿ Aug 4, 2014 21:53

dwarf74: Sep 2, 2012; Buglord

Going back a ways, I think 5e looks... Okay.

However, to be frank, I'd much rather run or play 4e or RC D&D. The only editions that 5e is any kind of substitute for are 3.x and 2e, since that's where most of the design influence comes from. (Especially 3e, imo.)

I think you'd have to be crazy to recommend Pathfinder to just about anyone right now, let alone a newbie. 5e is much better as an on-ramp at this moment, and already a better and more cohesive game.

# ¿ Aug 5, 2014 17:25

dwarf74: Sep 2, 2012; Buglord

Yeah, anyone who says that "good adventures" were a strength of early 4e is simply wrong. It's no surprise to me that a bunch of people gave up on it after Keep on the Shadowfell. It's sad, but it's no surprise.

# ¿ Aug 5, 2014 23:04

dwarf74: Sep 2, 2012; Buglord

FMguru posted:

I thought some of the later, fancier 4E modules were supposed to be good (Tomb of Horrors, Gardmore Abbey, Neverwinter, etc.)

It got better. Not much of worth before 2011 though, which is too drat late.

And Neverwinter was a setting; 4e has stellar sandbox settings.

# ¿ Aug 5, 2014 23:40

dwarf74: Sep 2, 2012; Buglord

Jack the Lad posted:

The Battle Master's level 15 feature, Relentless, has been heavily nerfed.

Before: If you start a turn with 0 Superiority Dice, regain 2.

Now: If you have 0 Superiority Dice when you roll initiative, regain 1.

Holy poo poo. Between this and Indomitable, someone thought fighters were op.

# ¿ Aug 6, 2014 12:53

dwarf74: Sep 2, 2012; Buglord

ProfessorCirno posted:

I know people here were all abloobloo don't play PF, but I stand by it being better then 5e. Path of War from what I've heard is even better then ToB.

The actual answer is don't play either mind you.

No, no way in which a slightly modded, heavily bloated version of 3.5 which never attempted to solve any of the deep issues with the system, is better than 5e. PF has all the same problems at 5e, just moreso, and a whole lot more of them.

Like the save disparity in 5e. It's a real concern. But it's peanuts compared to the save disparity in PF. Fighters? Yeah, kinda looking bad in 5e. In PF? They're terrible all around.

No comparison, really.

Though you're right on the last point.

# ¿ Aug 6, 2014 14:11

dwarf74: Sep 2, 2012; Buglord

ProfessorCirno posted:

You're kinda missing the problem.

"I wanna play a cool warrior dude with options."

3.x has an answer to that. 5e doesn't. I mean my solution in 3.x is "don't play these classes." Your 5e solution is "don't play these concepts."

You're overselling how bad 5e looks, and underselling how bad 3.x actually is. Especially for the DM, holy poo poo.

# ¿ Aug 6, 2014 18:39

dwarf74: Sep 2, 2012; Buglord

Boing posted:

I've been playing the basic Starter set and good lord am I bored. This is the first edition of D&D I've actually played (though I'm really familiar with 3rd ed from NWN and stuff) and the thing that strikes me is that nothing about the system is at all fun.

I'm playing the Criminal halfling rogue and my contribution in combat is to say "I stab the bugbear in the back. Did I hit? Okay I killed it. I missed? Ok nothing happens." and it's exactly the same every turn. The fighter is the same. The wizard and the cleric have a couple of things to do but it doesn't seem much better. The roleplay is fine, but the roleplay would be just as fine (or better) under any other system or literally no system at all.

Why would someone play this game?

This is seriously exactly what 4e is good for, and you should try to find a group for it.

# ¿ Aug 7, 2014 14:53

dwarf74: Sep 2, 2012; Buglord

Boing posted:

I've never tried 4E but I've liked most of the things I've heard about it. The thing that puts me off is apparently it takes a very, very long time to do combat? Which doesn't seem very attractive for a combat-driven system. What contributes to the length? Is it a significant setback?

It takes less time at mid levels than 3e combat, ime.

As long as everyone is paying attention - and you should, for your out of turn actions - it runs smoothly.

# ¿ Aug 7, 2014 16:07

dwarf74: Sep 2, 2012; Buglord

treeboy posted:

i've not played 3e, only 3.5, but this is very much not my experience over the last couple years of playing a 3.5 campaign. 4e combat would sometimes take entire sessions and still not be completed. We've had one combat in 18 months in 3.5 that lasted that long and it was a big boss fight culminating that section of the game. I love 4e, but combat can, and often does, get very very slow for very real reasons beyond people just not paying attention (which is also a huge issue the system does little to address)

Yeah, I've not had any session long encounters in quite some time, and they were all "final showdown" set pieces.

I dunno what to tell you.

# ¿ Aug 7, 2014 16:24

dwarf74: Sep 2, 2012; Buglord

ProfessorProf posted:

Yeah, the difference between Advantage and +3.325 is that Advantage can't allow you to do anything you couldn't have done already.

What it adds is reliability without pumping numbers.

3e and 4e have precisely one way to prevent experts from failing easy checks - getting the bonus so high that failure falls off the RNG. With Advantage, you can do similar without mathematically eliminating less skilled characters from participating in challenges.

It's a much cleaner and better way to represent reliability, imo, and one of the only parts I really like.

# ¿ Aug 7, 2014 20:59

dwarf74: Sep 2, 2012; Buglord

Gort posted:

It's still rubbish that half-casters don't get unique spells, they just get a sub-set of wizard spells.

Both of the half caster subclasses look terrible. Not like the non casting ones are awesome, but the half casters are dull, with little to recommend them over multiclassing.

# ¿ Aug 7, 2014 21:02

dwarf74: Sep 2, 2012; Buglord

Jack the Lad posted:

To be fair that crit is 22d6+5 for an average of 82 damage.

But you can do that ALL DAY!

:v:

# ¿ Aug 7, 2014 21:15

dwarf74: Sep 2, 2012; Buglord

Gort posted:

Would it break anything for advantage plus advantage to equal "roll 3d20, pick highest", and advantage plus advantage plus disadvantage equalling "roll 2d20, pick highest"?

Other than tracking that clusterfuck on top of static mods? Doesn't seem like it.

# ¿ Aug 7, 2014 23:20

dwarf74: Sep 2, 2012; Buglord

S.J. posted:

Well I'm at work and we've got the PHB here.

The artwork is nice.

How's the rules?

# ¿ Aug 8, 2014 02:33

dwarf74: Sep 2, 2012; Buglord

Hey guys, great news!!

I bet you missed 36d20 rats, didn't you? I bet you were kinda relieved and kinda disappointed it wasn't a thing to mock 5e for anymore. I know my feelings were mixed.

Well, it's back. For kobolds. :eng99:

Now, it's 36d20 kobolds.

http://dnd.wizards.com/products/tabletop-games/rpg-products/hoard-dragon-queen

# ¿ Aug 9, 2014 04:58

dwarf74: Sep 2, 2012; Buglord

Oh also!

Check the Mage.

Look at his spell list.

Now, quick! Which of these spells are reactions or bonus actions?

# ¿ Aug 9, 2014 05:05

dwarf74: Sep 2, 2012; Buglord

eth0.n posted:

I do love how they made a big deal about how bad minor actions were, and they didn't want to include them.

Then they introduce bonus actions, which are functionally exactly identical to minor actions, just more obfuscated and cumbersome.

Doubly obfuscated, because gently caress if they even tell you anywhere in the monster stat block

# ¿ Aug 9, 2014 05:15

dwarf74: Sep 2, 2012; Buglord

MonsterEnvy posted:

They do just not with spells. Just learn what the spells do, write them down or buy the spell cards when they come out. If you can't be bothered with that or even the looking the spells up then don't use the monster.

No, I'd rather have that stuff spelled out for me so I don't need to waste neurons memorizing spells.

And I'll do you one better and not play the game! :dance:

# ¿ Aug 9, 2014 05:45

dwarf74: Sep 2, 2012; Buglord

treeboy posted:

allow me before people jump in an tell you to kill yourself or something equally sensible

Plusses
1) quick combat, with some simplified rules (esp. drawing/sheathing weapons) which allow for more flexibility in actions
2) advantage/disadvantage is a very elegant simple replacement for 99% of conditional +1/2/3/4 bonuses from previous editions
3) AC/DC is much less vertical doing away with the +1 treadmill of 4e and even earlier. AC 20 will *always* be hard to hit, 10 will always be easy
4) aspects of char gen like backgrounds help separate class/race from character/RP
5) archetypes help give various flavors to broader classes (Melee vs. Archer vs. Warlord-ish fighters for example)
6) feats are more like additional class features than +1 to dumb stat specialization
7) starting stats are lower, but the game throws a lot of them at you during leveling. Feats are alternatives to ability score increases.

Minuses
1) at the moment it looks like caster/martial divide is *closer* to 3.x than it was in 4e as far as power scale, but still *nowhere* near as bad as 3.x
2) casters get a lot of flavor and options, martial generally feel a bit 'plain jane'
3) "Natural language" rules are more ambiguous than 4e's concise technical style
4) Encounter/Monster design is still pretty unclear. Seems more in line with 3.x's CR system than 4e's well planned budget/role system. Potential issues in balancing combat
5) maintains D&D's issue of having really powerful combat feats vying for attention with flavorful RP feats with little combat benefit. mitigated by many feats now offering +1 to an ability score in addition to their effects.

edit: slight edits and additions

I think this is a pretty fair breakdown, but for me the biggest minus is going back to spell lists. In monster stat blocks, referenced for character & monster abilities, etc.

I just don't want to deal with that.

With that said, I think the thread gets way too negative at times. It's a better game than 3.x or PF, I'd play it if offered, and I'm trying to keep an open mind for the DMG. I just don't know why I'd play it instead of 4e or RC right now.

# ¿ Aug 9, 2014 20:38

dwarf74: Sep 2, 2012; Buglord

LuiCypher posted:

Wait wait wait... Where have I been that I have not heard about about 4E Dark Sun?!

Sounds like I need to get my priorities straight.

As a fan of Dark Sun since the 2e days, who can get kinda groggy about it... It was amazing. I ran a 2 year long campaign in it, and I think it's mechanically the best implementation of the setting. They rolled back the timeline, distilled the essentials down to one great book (two with the monsters), and the 4e system is a better fit than 2e was, imo.

The only downside is that a 4e DM is largely on their own for conversions, but fortunately that's easy in 4e.

# ¿ Aug 10, 2014 00:16

dwarf74: Sep 2, 2012; Buglord

Tiny Chalupa posted:

Also...WTF is up with the release schedule? Players book August. DM guide not until November I was hearing?!??! I mean I guess we can use the adventure book to figure out encounters and tweak from there but I really hope that isn't the release plan :/

Releasing 3 books at the same time requires a lot more work than staggering the release schedule. They just don't have the staff for it.

# ¿ Aug 10, 2014 20:13

dwarf74: Sep 2, 2012; Buglord

seebs posted:

This right here, this is why the game has gone to hell.

D&D books are what you read while eating lunch. You are doing it literally exactly backwards.

I have a 2 year old and a 4 year old.

Lunch is when I do 99% of all my rpg prep time.

# ¿ Aug 11, 2014 00:01

dwarf74: Sep 2, 2012; Buglord

Effectronica posted:

Pathfinder is not an example of modern game design. Why would a marginal set of adjustments to a design from more than a decade ago be considered modern?

Are you talking about 5e or Pathfinder? Or both?

# ¿ Aug 11, 2014 02:31

dwarf74: Sep 2, 2012; Buglord

Zombies' Downfall posted:

why do some people prefer 3.5 to Pathfinder?

I don't like either, but with certain tweaks - like, ironically, banning PHB classes - 3.5 ends up a better balanced game.

Also, there's cool poo poo like Bo9S. And despite being around for more time, it's less bloated than pf.

# ¿ Aug 11, 2014 04:03

dwarf74: Sep 2, 2012; Buglord

ProfessorCirno posted:

In 4e it's easier to homebrew monsters because 4e monsters honestly have relatively simplistic math and few connected moving parts. This doesn't apply if your imagination has been damaged and you can't homebrew with pure creativity and instead need a full class an attribute system to slog through, of course.

poo poo, I can't tell you how many times I've said, "this dragonborn bro should be a wizard" so I pick a cool wizard spell, brew up some monster math, and keep the special effects.

I never want to give up the ease of DMing 4e. That's 5e's major obstacle for winning me over.

Well, that and "martial characters with options and the ability to direct the flow of the game as much as wizards."

# ¿ Aug 11, 2014 16:28

dwarf74: Sep 2, 2012; Buglord

seebs posted:

Okay, assume he has the 108 skeletons available to use to animate. At that point, great, he's got a huge supply of skeletons... now what? He's got no higher level spells (because he blew them on animating his army), and skeletons are not super powerful, and they are light on things like maneuverability. Do they have decent to-hit numbers?

You don't need a fighter now, so get Jim to play another kind of wizard now that Brosef the Mighty is obsolete.

# ¿ Aug 11, 2014 23:23

dwarf74: Sep 2, 2012; Buglord

thespaceinvader posted:

gently caress me, after the goodness of 4e, this just looks like seriously, if there's ONE THING that everyone agreed was good it was 4e monster blocks, they're so USABLE. This is just a mess.

And yeah, on the whole skeleton army thing: gently caress a game that has an action economy, and lets some people loving ignore it. Another of those lessons from 4e they chose to just outright ignore.

Good news!

An army of 100 shortbow-wielding skeletons led by a 20th-level necromancer can kill the Tarrasque in 9 rounds, assuming they can get enough Magic Weapon spells cast. And the tarrasque can kill 3 buff skeletons every round!

# ¿ Aug 12, 2014 02:52

dwarf74: Sep 2, 2012; Buglord

seebs posted:

Pretty much this. So, for instance, if you decide to just charge off after something way bigger than you, you're likely to get smacked, because that's what would happen, etc.

And in that context, the answer to "how many skeletons are there" depends on where you are and what makes sense given the world's established traits.

Note also, I don't see anything saying you can point at someplace that you think there are probably bones underground, I think you actually have to point to bones.

Honestly, though, how hard is it to find an ancient battlefield? Or a kobold cave?

Adventurers are killing poo poo all the time. I'm not buying "dead bodies" to be in short supply.

# ¿ Aug 12, 2014 19:04

dwarf74: Sep 2, 2012; Buglord

seebs posted:

How long do I have to go looking?

How hard is it to find them, today, between now and when we want to fight the dragon? Maybe pretty hard. How hard is it to find them if I can take a month to go hunting? Pretty easy.

I don't have any idea because this is the dumbest possible way to balance a broken spell.

# ¿ Aug 12, 2014 20:17

dwarf74: Sep 2, 2012; Buglord

Jack the Lad posted:

I legitimately hate 5e's design.

But don't worry guys, only, like, actual wizards will cast spells.

# ¿ Aug 12, 2014 20:38

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# ¿ May 14, 2024 19:12

dwarf74: Sep 2, 2012; Buglord

So has anyone tweeted about skelly hordes at Mearls and let him tell you it's up to the DM to fix their lovely rules yet?

# ¿ Aug 13, 2014 03:46

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