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wallawallawingwang posted:Is anyone else oscillating between doing a modest rules cleanup and just using 4e as a base for something totally different? The game I posted upthread was originally meant to be a mashup of "what might be the classes in Diablo 3" with "make 3.5 simpler and more newbie friendly" since D2 and 3.5 is how I got into the hobby. Eventually 4e came along, and I was like "hey this works great" so I ended up taking my previous conceptions and building towards 4e, rather than from it, per se. One thing I didn't like was how 4e has so many numbers compound just to give you your basic stats (defenses, attack bonus, damage, etc.) so most stuff in my game runs off 1 modifier, sometimes 2. I also like the flatter math and Advantage™ from 5e, so I cribbed those and put my own spin on it. Rather than have the 4e-ism of power sources and "filling the grid", I divorced role from class; power sources are basically martial vs. magic and each one gives you some basic benefits that are comparable in power and utility. All that said, the game math boils down to attributes and "armaments"; the game is modular in that feats, power source, role, and the whole skill section of the game are optional. tl;dr It depends how much poo poo you want to strip out from 4e; if it's a lot, you might be better off starting from square 1, and using 4e as something to aspire to (in terms of balance and mathematical rigor).
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Jul 11, 2014 19:44
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Spincut posted:I'm interested in doing something for the contest, but I'm just curious on what you are going to be judging the entries on? Are you looking for something that modified 4e's mechanics the best, did the wildest thing to reskin 4e, or is just "the coolest thing?" Sorry for the late reply. I'm judging on the following factors: Creativity (Difference from original while still being 4e. I want to reward those with good ideas, but also make sure they are using the 4e system), Practicality (How well the mechanics work), Presentation (How easy the rules are to parse: clarity in rules are important), Balance (How strong the classes/character options are in relation to one another), and, possibly, Player Feedback (I'm trying to setup a group of non-bias individuals to run one encounter in each entry. This is a possible factor as attempts to set this up have not yet worked out)
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Jul 11, 2014 19:51
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I have a working draft of my first class: The Innate Mage. Still a lot to do even for the class. 10 levels for a simple to use class on a trifold. Basic class concept: You have a mage who has one trick they can use really well. The ones presented are an Illusionist, a Storm Controller, an Earth/Ice Controller (same rules), and a Burninating Pyromancer. Feats and Utility Powers rolled into one (why exactly do we need both?) with some Feats being passive. Most feats are class specific (I've thrown out Enhancement Bonusses and Expertise for a flat +1/level, and gone for Death To Ability Scores) but there are a few you can pick that are generic. And each new class provides its own multiclass feat. Yes, flight is in there as an ability - although it's more the Hover-target type of flight (yes, I want them to run when they need to. Or throw up walls). Comments?
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Jul 12, 2014 04:18
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Add a summoner type. For necromancers with zombies, master of elementals and golems, etc. And maybe generalize a bit more. Your pyro is an elemental blaster: choose a keyword at character creation (Fire, shock, thunder, frost, etc.) So then you divide the class and powerlist by what they do. Blaster- choose a keyword Controller -manifestation (storm, illusion, etc), elemental (keyword) And so on. Error 404 fucked around with this message at 17:14 on Jul 12, 2014 |
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Jul 12, 2014 17:12
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Error 404 posted:Add a summoner type. For necromancers with zombies, master of elementals and golems, etc. The Summoner's sufficiently different that it's going to be its own separate playbook (with the Summoner themselves having the weakest attacks) - Artificers, Necromancers, Elementalists, and Commanders and Summons as Champion, Swarm, Bodyguards, Endless (think the Shaman). They get up to their level in "Weak summons" (non-combatants with extremely limited initiative) with a feat to make it their level cubed for when you need those skeleton hordes. (And their multiclass feat gives the taker's level squared in weak summons). As for generalising, the first draft had each elemental type with an Sfx. I wasn;t happy with the result, but may go back to it and remove Storm to make space. In my experience the overwhelming majority of blasters would be pyromancers anyway. But it's something I'm oscillating on (with sticking the class to two sides not being negotiable although the font size is). And thanks for the feedback 
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Jul 12, 2014 17:56
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And now for a Trifold Fighter who can be anywhere from simpler than a Slayer to the full range of a well built Weaponmaster. And yes, CAGI is in there in all but name (I made it a daily because it has much more of a daily feel to me) and so is the Countercharge as an encounter power. And yes, the fighter is meant to have a ridiculous level of Presence.
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Jul 13, 2014 01:54
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This is beautiful.
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Jul 13, 2014 03:12
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wallawallawingwang posted:Is anyone else oscillating between doing a modest rules cleanup and just using 4e as a base for something totally different? I'm doing something very different from most RPGs but I'm debating on how much of 4e mechanics to keep. Right now I'm pondering a completely alternate system of defenses from 4e, for example.
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Jul 13, 2014 04:34
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neonchameleon posted:And now for a Trifold Fighter who can be anywhere from simpler than a Slayer to the full range of a well built Weaponmaster. And yes, CAGI is in there in all but name (I made it a daily because it has much more of a daily feel to me) and so is the Countercharge as an encounter power. And yes, the fighter is meant to have a ridiculous level of Presence. I've left a couple comments on the document itself and hopefully I didn't break poo poo in the process, but I think it might be more convenient if I leave more extensive feedback this way. First of all this looks pretty rad and I think you should keep going with this. In terms of feedback, my immediate question I guess is whether there's really much of a benefit to having both a Mark and a Defender Aura as Approaches as they really both fulfill similar functions and provide similar benefits with only a slight difference in functionality. I'm a fan of 4E's Fighter but I have to admit that if I were trying to do a quicker, simpler, sleeker 4E that I might be tempted to just give the Fighter the Defender's Aura which is honestly a very functional bit of design that renders a Fighter quite sticky. Next, is there anything that differentiates the weapon choice besides damage die type? Because as it stands I'm not entirely sure what the point of choosing, say, unarmed combat is over a one handed weapon when one does d6 damage and the other does d10 with no other apparent difference. Maybe this is something you plan to address further on in the game, I'm not sure. Is there a reason that choosing the Action Point Upgrade locks you into choosing it for each successive Upgrade? And why does Old One-Two look like you can take it multiple times? I may be misinterpreting something, but there doesn't seem to be any reason to take it more than once.
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Jul 13, 2014 06:03
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Kai Tave posted:I've left a couple comments on the document itself and hopefully I didn't break poo poo in the process, but I think it might be more convenient if I leave more extensive feedback this way. Thanks for the comments And the proposed changes were only marked rejected (after comments) to get the page alignment back.Mark and Defender Aura: Not really other than legacy, especially with the Roots of the Mountain feat in there to cover the pushes that really annoy Knights. I was going to say that would block the "You're Next!" feat I really like - but that just takes a single line to fix. Weapon choice: there's what you are actually doing with the free hand. The reason to have nothing in your off hand is to enable the grappler/brawler powers and if you have two empty hands you can grab two monsters at the same time. Otherwise weapons are better. And now I come to think of it at present sword and fist is strictly better than TWF which I need to fix. Action point locks you in because I've never been happy with fights going down fast to Daily/Action Point/Daily. That just gets annoying. But come to think of it there shouldn't be a problem here as that would take three dailies (I've taken Action Points out of the main rules). And most classes are intended to have one "default" encounter power to enable people who actually want to repeat the same trick over and over. It's never going to be what I consider the best one (although I am trying to balance them) - far my favourite encounter power for the fighter is Countercharge. Likewise Own The Foe for dailies. I like complex tactics, but I'm trying to build the class on a sliding scale for those who don't. Anyway, next up: The Warlord. And there I get to play with the Popcorn Initiative system I'm using - Warlords get powers that allow you to either steal the initiative or pass it on as well as most of their classic bag of tricks.
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Jul 13, 2014 12:33
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You can always keep "Marked" as a general status effect similar to slowed or dazed if you want, it can have applications outside of the Fighter. I didn't realize that going unarmed would let you grapple two enemies at once. I guess that gives it a bit of circumstantial utility but I dunno if that makes it worth taking a d6 for damage as opposed to a d10 for going sword-and-fist. Maybe roll unarmed into "improvised and thrown" at a d8?
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Jul 13, 2014 17:35
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I doubt that two fisted fighters are worth it - but yes, d8 would probably be better. I also want to tweak it somehow so you can smash improvised weapons for extra damage - but I think that should be in the core improvised weapon rules. As for Marked having applications outside the fighter, I believe even Monster Vault uses it. Although character creation is very different it's intended to be compatible at the table (barring skill tweaks). Also I know I said the Warlord would be next - but I'm slightly drunk. The Archivist Wizard. If I'm redesigning why not meet a request for a certain type of character? It's not finished - I need to add more iconic spells. And I'm not sure whether it is a really good idea or a really bad one.
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Jul 14, 2014 01:06
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neonchameleon posted:I doubt that two fisted fighters are worth it - but yes, d8 would probably be better. I also want to tweak it somehow so you can smash improvised weapons for extra damage - but I think that should be in the core improvised weapon rules. As for Marked having applications outside the fighter, I believe even Monster Vault uses it. Although character creation is very different it's intended to be compatible at the table (barring skill tweaks). It's not set to public viewing.
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Jul 14, 2014 01:15
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Covok posted:It's not set to public viewing. Doh! Fixed.
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Jul 14, 2014 01:27
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neonchameleon posted:I doubt that two fisted fighters are worth it - but yes, d8 would probably be better. I also want to tweak it somehow so you can smash improvised weapons for extra damage - but I think that should be in the core improvised weapon rules. As for Marked having applications outside the fighter, I believe even Monster Vault uses it. Although character creation is very different it's intended to be compatible at the table (barring skill tweaks). Lots of monsters use Marks but even in core 4E various characters outside of Defenders have powers/exploits/whatever that let them mark enemies. In a lot of cases it isn't really worth it since few of them have the ability to enforce marks in a threatening manner but that's something you could address either by making "Marked" a more versatile status effect or simply giving it to classes that can make good use of it. For improvised weapons you could always crib from 4E Dark Sun's weapon breakage rules which were pretty fun...if you roll a 1 with an improvised weapon you can either accept the automatic miss or you can choose to reroll but if you roll 5 or less on the second roll then the weapon breaks. You can adjust the threshold of the second roll to taste. On the subject of weapon and damage...something you could consider, I don't know how you're planning on handling weapons, is giving different classes different values of damage with various weapon types instead of saying "all two-handed weapons do X." So for example, Fighters do d12 with two-handers but maybe Paladins only do a d10, Fighters do d8 with unarmed damage but Monks do d10 or d12, etc.
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Jul 14, 2014 05:37
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Kai Tave posted:On the subject of weapon and damage...something you could consider, I don't know how you're planning on handling weapons, is giving different classes different values of damage with various weapon types instead of saying "all two-handed weapons do X." So for example, Fighters do d12 with two-handers but maybe Paladins only do a d10, Fighters do d8 with unarmed damage but Monks do d10 or d12, etc. Figure out your expected DPR, map it to the appropriate dice, and just reskin everything.
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Jul 14, 2014 07:40
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Obviously the simplest and most expedient method of differentiating damage between classes is the Dungeon World approach where damage is solely a function of class rather than weapon, where the Fighter does d10 damage whether he's using a greatsword or a teacup and the Wizard only does d4 no matter what unless he's using magic to cheat his way into something bigger. That said, I think there's some value to be had in a slightly higher crunch game in being able to choose between, say, a high-damage Fighter that specializes in beating face or a Fighter who gives up a bit of raw damage in exchange for, say, greater control abilities on the weapon proficiency end of things. Not to a huge range, but the choice between a d10 and a d12 (for example) is really just a difference of 1 point of damage on average. Neonchameleon's Fighter already makes that choice through power selection though so there may not be as much value in having an extra layer of that when it comes to choosing weapons. At that point you could simply stick with class-based damage and give different weapon types/styles variable bonuses beyond that (unarmed gives you a bonus to grappling and pinning, improvised lets you smash up your weapons for extra punch, sword-and-shield gives you a defense bonus, polearms give you reach, two-handers have a built-in cleave or something, etc.).
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Jul 14, 2014 08:09
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So, as I usually do in these contests, I'm growing to hate my original concept. Sure, it sounded neat to me at first, but it's sort of become a complicated way to make multiclass characters. So, scratching that. Now I'm working on something else I probably won't finish either. Going to make a sci-fi, 4e powered ragtag starship crew game. Going to keep some of my ideas about gear-based powers, but now they will be more specific to the classes. So while two classes may have access to a Pistol type weapon, the specific powers it grants will be different. Why am I so bad at sticking with one idea?
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Jul 14, 2014 18:29
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lord_daeloth posted:Why am I so bad at sticking with one idea? Because the creative process isn't necessarily linear. The fact that you explored an idea to the point where you began to have problems with it is more than a lot of people will do. If you learned something from that approach, you gained something. Now write more because that sounds interesting! I'm going to have to try some of these out with my group. We never really gave 4E a good shake, so this might give me a chance to try it out.
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Jul 14, 2014 20:59
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Trifold Warlord.
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Jul 15, 2014 03:10
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Black Tuesday, October 29, 1929, seven stellar objects collide with the United States. Panic grips the world as the greatest economy on the planet grinds to a halt. Now, after two years, dark rumors plague the work camps and rail yards. The collision awakened something dark in the forgotten corners and deep places of the Earth. As one of millions of displaced workers, you must fight to survive crushing poverty, a broken society, and the sinister machinations of the awakened. It is S.T.A.L.K.E.R. meets Weird Tales in a radioactive dust bowl. My basic and proposed rule changes can be found here.
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Jul 15, 2014 20:57
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And now for a Rogue
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Jul 16, 2014 00:50
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These trifold classes are really awesome.
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Jul 16, 2014 15:13
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Fenarisk posted:These trifold classes are really awesome. Thanks I'm about half way through the next one - the Holy Warrior who combines the Paladin, Strength Cleric, and Blackguard, complete with a vocation they can change twice/tier for a fall-and-redemption arc controlled by the player.
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Jul 16, 2014 15:22
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So as a short update: Went with the six stats as pseudo-classes. Having numbers for everything and making all distributions equally valid is just not going to work. So instead of rolling for numbers the character picks one of Strength, Intelligence or Charisma and one of Dexterity, Constitution or Wisdom. The first three are considered to be active abilities and the second three passive. Powers can have 1-6 different stat-based effects. Characters using the power get the additional effects based on their stats. Sort of an abstract example would be: Shield Bash 1 [W] damage Str: Push target one square away from you Cha: Ally adjacent to you or target can shift one square Dex: May use this just before an adjacent enemy attacks an ally. Wis: May use this instead of making a basic attack when an ability would let you make an extra basic attack. So a Str+Dex character might knock an enemy back just before it attacks their ally. A Cha+Wis character might use the opening a warlord-type ally provides to help another ally to retreat. An Int+Con character really shouldn't bother with this ability, but it's more obvious than 4e.
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Jul 16, 2014 17:14
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The Holy Warrior and a Table of Contents (not that I think I'll do it all this month - but I've enough functional classes already). I'm not as happy with the Holy Warrior as I am my other classes - mostly because the Cleric archetype is weird and D&D specific and I'm breaking from that as well. So I'd love feedback; I think it's clear what I'm trying to do (and there is another more castery cleric to come).
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Jul 17, 2014 01:10
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Is the Holy Warrior public? Google says I need to ask you permission to access it.
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Jul 17, 2014 01:26
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Nancy_Noxious posted:Is the Holy Warrior public? Google says I need to ask you permission to access it. ... I'd forgotten that when I created a copy of the previous template it didn't copy permissions. It is now.
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Jul 17, 2014 01:48
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Error 404 posted:This. Teaser:  WORK ON THIS MONSTROSITY CONTINUESBe very afraid.
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Jul 17, 2014 10:00
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P.d0t posted:Teaser: Hey yo P.d0t I'm really happy for you and I'mma let you finish but-  Click this fools! So yeah, Comments, critiques, hatemail, and  all welcome. Anything specifically about the MATHS should be directed at P, and please yell at me for the terrible prose...I mean seriously, it's awful. 
Error 404 fucked around with this message at 10:13 on Jul 17, 2014 |
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Jul 17, 2014 10:09
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I was looking at conditions to try to create a rough tier rating for them, and to see if there are any gaps that need filling. It made me realize there are a few common effects that could be formalized into a condition, like being unable threaten spaces and/or being unable to make OAs. It also seems like there are very few conditions that flat out add an attack roll penalty (just Blinded I think), but a lot of conditions inflict CA which works as a sort of a nested defense penalty. Seeing Dying, Unconscious, Helpless and Surprised separate from their normal contexts makes me wonder if you could set them to be consequences for attacks independent of the circumstances you normally encounter them in. For instance, Finger of Death could inflict a special Dying (save ends) effect instead of doing HP damage. How do these ratings look? Am I missing anything obvious? Tier 6: Dominated, Dying, Unconscious Tier 5: Surprised, Stunned, Helpless Tier 4: Petrified, Dazed, Blinded, Removed from Play Tier 3: Restrained, Weakened, Prone Tier 2: Immobilized Tier 1: Slowed, Marked (regular, not marked w/defender punishment), grabbed Tier 0: Deafened Does anyone know offhand if CA stacks with the -5 to defenses from unconscious? Anyone have any burning condition chat? Is it worth setting up a parallel set of helpful conditions, like Hasted, or Inspired?
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Jul 18, 2014 00:20
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I'm just wondering how everyone's entry is going. We are starting to near the end of the month so the pressure is on, so to speak. Two weeks from yesterday, the contest will be over. Hope to see everyone's entry.
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Jul 18, 2014 04:24
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Slowly but surely we are coming along.
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Jul 18, 2014 04:27
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Error 404 posted:Hey yo P.d0t I'm really happy for you and I'mma let you finish but- I like the idea. I thought it was going to be caveman themed from the image. Though I'm a little surprised by going to deer instead of sheep or goats.
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Jul 18, 2014 06:17
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neonchameleon posted:The Holy Warrior and a Table of Contents (not that I think I'll do it all this month - but I've enough functional classes already). I wasn't happy with it. So I rewrote it to make it further from a fighter type and much more its own thing. Holy Warriors are now implacable fanatics who get stronger as the situation gets worse. The Holy Warrior (improved version)
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Jul 18, 2014 11:46
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Speleothing posted:Though I'm a little surprised by going to deer instead of sheep or goats. WELP. That will probably change, I guess I was raised on Venison more than Mutton, which is apparently not a common thing! and I've never even had goat (except goat cheese).
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Jul 18, 2014 15:17
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wallawallawingwang posted:How do these ratings look? Am I missing anything obvious? Why is Surprised and Stunned rated as a higher tier than Petrified, Dazed, Blinded, Removed from Play? Helpless, yes, I can see that being worse than Petrified etc, but Surprised and Stunned? Why is Blinded equal to Removed from Play? I'd stick it alongside Restrained. Flanked should be rated somewhere on here.
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Jul 18, 2014 15:45
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wallawallawingwang posted:How do these ratings look? Am I missing anything obvious? wallawallawingwang posted:Does anyone know offhand if CA stacks with the -5 to defenses from unconscious? Iunnrais posted:Why is Surprised and Stunned rated as a higher tier than Petrified, Dazed, Blinded, Removed from Play? Helpless, yes, I can see that being worse than Petrified etc, but Surprised and Stunned? Petrified at least gives you DR and Removed From Play likewise makes you not susceptible to damage.Alright fine I'll break this down. E; Done edits. P.d0t fucked around with this message at 19:40 on Jul 18, 2014 |
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Jul 18, 2014 19:00
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Covok posted:I'm just wondering how everyone's entry is going. We are starting to near the end of the month so the pressure is on, so to speak. Two weeks from yesterday, the contest will be over. Hope to see everyone's entry. It's not NEAR the end of the month you rear end in a top hat, I just had a moment of panic before I looked at the date. I have my classes and skill-based conflict system mostly finished. I need to work on the Specialty system, figure out how I'm going to do "equipment" (magic items) and that's most of my game. So I guess you could say I'm roughly halfway done? The foundations are there. Oh, I need to rewrite the RC rules because there are some minor changes, but that will take me like, an evening.
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Jul 18, 2014 19:17
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Gau posted:It's not NEAR the end of the month you rear end in a top hat, I just had a moment of panic before I looked at the date. I said two weeks. You know, like, latter half. No need to get all flustered. You still got time.
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Jul 18, 2014 19:19
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