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Jastiger posted:The main point being made there, I think, is that those Northern assholes are assholes because they are being more South-like in their politics. If the South didnt' have such a stranglehold on our political process through powersharing of the states, people like Paul Ryan and Bachmann couldn't exist. I've been to the Straw poll in Iowa and I can tell you that it looks very out of place because of all the rhetoric concerning religion, minorities, and "big government". It clashes with the culture of the region, but is successful because of all the media circus that follows. Jesus Christ. Maybe the straw poll in Iowa doesn't look just like the South but the rest of rural America because that's what it is? Conservatism and racism has never been, or even mostly been, a Southern phenomenon, and saying that American politics rests on a range between more Southern and more Northern, and the Northerner acting racist or assholes is expressing his inner "South-like"-ness is so hilariously stupid. Jastiger have you ever been to the South for an extended period of time?
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Jul 9, 2014 16:58
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Popular Thug Drink posted:The reason nobody takes you seriously ITT is that you seem to think south is a synonym for bad. Well, that and your propensity for rectal freestyling. You've never heard the phrase "things started going south" in reference to things turning into poo poo?
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Jul 9, 2014 17:17
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Wade Wilson posted:You've never heard the phrase "things started going south" in reference to things turning into poo poo? I have, but I didn't think the idiom would be the basis for someone's actual analysis of national politics.
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Jul 9, 2014 17:22
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History lesson: "things going south" is from slavery days when "uppity" slaves in the northern/border states (Maryland, Delaware, Kentucky, etc) would be sold "down the river" to the traditionally harsher plantations and weather. Hint: using the South as a synonym for everything bad accomplishes nothing. Yes, we've had lovely parts of our history. Southern progressives accept and acknowledge this. Continuing to hold this over our heads is akin to holding the Holocaust and WW2 over modern Germany's head. The Germans all know exactly what happened. There's not a German who doesn't know about the Holocaust, and there isn't a single Southerner who doesn't know about our history with slavery. What does beating us over the head with it time and time again accomplish? You're preaching to the choir on that account. People only do it so they can feel better about their own lovely situation almost like...poor whites...supporting slavery...in the South.....oh.
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Jul 9, 2014 17:27
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^^ I have been posting that in response to every post of his in this thread. He's not going to get it, there's some disconnect there. ^^Popular Thug Drink posted:I have, but I didn't think the idiom would be the basis for someone's actual analysis of national politics. Are you looking for halfbaked opinions based on misunderstandings and feigned liberalism? Well let me introduce you to forums poster Jastiger...
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Jul 9, 2014 17:32
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HonorableTB posted:...and there isn't a single Southerner who doesn't know about our history with slavery... To be fair, many southerners are proud of that history. Many aren't though.  Again, this really just comes off as a bunch of white posters competing for the not-racist award while avidly avoiding discussing anything of actual value. eVVVV: I think we could get rid of this line of discussion if everyone just ignored this guy. MLKQUOTEMACHINE fucked around with this message at 17:40 on Jul 9, 2014 |
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Jul 9, 2014 17:37
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HonorableTB posted:History lesson: "things going south" is from slavery days when "uppity" slaves in the northern/border states (Maryland, Delaware, Kentucky, etc) would be sold "down the river" to the traditionally harsher plantations and weather. I think this is wrong as far as analogies go. Germans see someone spouting Nazi propaganda and they beat their rear end down with social pressure. In the South it isn't like that. Its "Pride not Hate" and all that when considering the Confederacy. Now, Southern progressives are absolutely not doing that, but obviously, the place isn't run by Southern progressives. Sheng-ji Yang posted:Jesus Christ. Maybe the straw poll in Iowa doesn't look just like the South but the rest of rural America because that's what it is? Conservatism and racism has never been, or even mostly been, a Southern phenomenon, and saying that American politics rests on a range between more Southern and more Northern, and the Northerner acting racist or assholes is expressing his inner "South-like"-ness is so hilariously stupid. Wrong, the straw poll is an event to see what kind of popularity certain candidates may have. It could be anything from a serious political forum to a rally to a multi party debate. Instead its Jesus, Guns, and Anti-Federalism. It doesn't HAVE to be that, but it is! Why is that? Because of the tribal mentality of the people that attend such an event. Its why the event is mostly a circus instead of a serious political discussion. Naked Lincoln posted:This doesn't make a lot of sense. Religion, race, and the rhetoric of small government have always been important parts of American politics, not just Southern. Look at the racial, anti-immigrant politics of the West during Reconstruction (when no one could argue that the South dominated the political process). Look at the resistance to integration in the Midwest following the Civil Rights Act (again, arguably a period when the South was not at the forefront of the national political process). The New Right of the sixties that helped reinvigorate American conservatism was a national movement and some if their big leaders were from New England and Arizona (Bill Buckley and Barry Goldwater). This is a good point.I was speaking really towards the last 60 years of political actions in the US. Cultural norms accepting minorities wasn't really a "thing" until I'd argue after World War I when the country had to come together to fight some common enemy. A Santorum or Bachmann could always exist, but I don't think they would have the national stage TODAY if it wasn't for the Southern Strategy of the Republicans in the 60s. Most people, North and South dismiss them as crazy, but they still get air time because there is that small and vocal minority that can and does vote for those folks, thus keeping the conversation further to the Right with anti-vax discussions instead of decreasing helath care costs.
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Jul 9, 2014 17:39
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nutranurse posted:Again, this really just comes off as a bunch of white posters competing for the not-racist award while avidly avoiding discussing anything of actual value. I can see why it would feel that way. But I don't feel that the Southern posters are trying to whitewash their past (no pun intended?) so much as look to the future and see what can be done. The oneupsmanship is idiotic, and needs to stop. The whole drat country is racist as hell, let's work on how to fix it and progress. you know. Like Progressives. The regional dickwaving is silly and unproductive, which is why is annoys people. The irony being that it annoys people into diving right down into it and getting in a fight about regionalism.
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Jul 9, 2014 17:40
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Jastiger posted:I think this is wrong as far as analogies go. Germans see someone spouting Nazi propaganda and they beat their rear end down with social pressure. In the South it isn't like that. Its "Pride not Hate" and all that when considering the Confederacy. Now, Southern progressives are absolutely not doing that, but obviously, the place isn't run by Southern progressives. How do you know this? Because you saw it on the internet? You've clearly never been to the south and I doubt you've ever had a conversation with a southerner. What compels you to keep posting transparent nonsense like this? It makes the most sense that you get some weird gratification out of feeling morally superior. Jastiger posted:Cultural norms accepting minorities wasn't really a "thing" until I'd argue after World War I when the country had to come together to fight some common enemy. The question remains if this is softball trolling or if you really are this ignorant about American history and politics. I'm leaning towards the latter. One of the worst decades for racial relations in the US was the 1920s. Predicting that you're going to backpedal 'After WWI' to 'Generally the recent past, you know'. nutranurse posted:Again, this really just comes off as a bunch of white posters competing for the not-racist award while avidly avoiding discussing anything of actual value. There's really nothing to discuss anyway, the south has more intense versions of the social problems that plague the rest of the country. Really the most interesting thing ITT is to see the depths of cluelessness Jastiger can reach. boner confessor fucked around with this message at 17:46 on Jul 9, 2014 |
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Jul 9, 2014 17:42
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I hesitate to even bring up preventing someone from posting here but it really looks like Jastiger's only contributions to this thread are to troll people and intentionally be obtuse. I would recommend putting him on ignore so we can get on with actual discussion.
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Jul 9, 2014 17:46
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Popular Thug Drink posted:How do you know this? Because you saw it on the internet? It let's him feel good without doing anything. Remember when someone suggested that if he felt so strongly about it, that he should do something and he got offended? "I don't have to do any work for civil rights because civil rights are a southern problem" is the most hilariously transparent way to excuse sitting on your rear end that I have ever seen.
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Jul 9, 2014 17:46
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I always figured "going south" referenced the cardinal direction south as in "down" instead of being associated to a certain region of the U.S. for whatever reason. "South" can also be used to reference hell I believe.
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Jul 9, 2014 17:56
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Popular Thug Drink posted:How do you know this? Because you saw it on the internet? I have been to the South and I have had discussions with Southerners or folks that sympathize with the "Heritage not Hate" stuff. As far as on the internet part, what do you mean? The German laws prohibiting Nazism and the negative social pressure applied there? I'm not making this stuff up. There are laws criminalizing denying the holocaust and"inciting hatred against segments of the population". Its codified that you can't be like the past terrors. We don't see that in the South. Again, progressives aren't in that group, but its something that happens. quote:The question remains if this is softball trolling or if you really are this ignorant about American history and politics. I'm leaning towards the latter. I did mean WWII, I apologize I missed an I there. Mormon Star Wars posted:It let's him feel good without doing anything. Remember when someone suggested that if he felt so strongly about it, that he should do something and he got offended? I was genuinely interested what a Northern Liberal can do to change laws, norms, and politics in the South? I was saying that progressives IN THE SOUTH need to get out and VOTE, especially since Conservatives are actively attempting to undermine their ability to do so. Just like I advocate for policies in my state, I encourage Southerners to do the same. Really, the only reason the South has that kind of political atmosphere is because of the gerrymandering and vote inhibition. People vote, the place will change politically.
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Jul 9, 2014 17:57
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Fighting voter suppression in Alabama is going to be one of the most important things you can do, you've got a long time to find a group that you can volunteer for / find out what neighbors need help getting ready to vote. Even if people's votes won't have a big effect on the election, in Alabama we get to vote on every county's business whether we live there or not, so you have a chance to push progressive measures through the entire state.quote:I was genuinely interested what a Northern Liberal can do to change laws, norms, and politics in the South? "Do you expect me to fly down there" is not showing genuine interest in what you can do to help.
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Jul 9, 2014 17:57
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I went to Disneyworld once with my folks, this qualifies me to say that southerners are proud of slavery and only vote republican. I know this to be true, in my heart. This is why I am interested in discussing ways that I can help lift the veil of ignorance from the south by heckling strawmen over the internet. Thanks and god bless.
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Jul 9, 2014 17:59
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Jastiger posted:
We are, I promise. You've even been given evidence to the fact that we do multiple times. One of the main ways you can help, since you're too lazy and/or disingenuous to actually do anything is to just stop throwing (already disproven) strawmen about, as it gives ammunition to the HERITAGE NOT HATE idiocy that you and I mutually dislike. Every smug Northern rear end in a top hat who comes in talking down to people because of the region they're from actually exacerbates the divide. If the only people who even pay lip service to respecting you are the ones preaching racism and small government, people are going to start (or continue in some cases) just taking those as part of their culture. It's a problem of perception leading to reality, rather than perception of reality. You have literally no idea how to talk to people outside of screaming at them that they're idiots for where they were born. And you continue to make statements that have been disproven time and time again. I'm on board with the guy who said to just ignore you, because you're adding nothing at all to the discussion. You're the more verbose version of that guy the mod told to shut the gently caress up.
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Jul 9, 2014 18:07
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Look guys, I'm not saying the South is all bad. Just that you can break down American politics and culture on a scale between Southern and Northern, with of course everything Southern being terrible believed only by assholes. I know this because I drove a couple miles into Virginia once and I saw a Confederate flag on a bumper sticker, also I was traumatized by the film "Deliverance" when I was but a child.
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Jul 9, 2014 18:10
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nucleicmaxid posted:We are, I promise. You've even been given evidence to the fact that we do multiple times.
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Jul 9, 2014 18:17
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Babylon Astronaut posted:Just to expand on this, according to Pew research, the greatest increases in voter turn-out during the 2008 election were in: Mississippi +8%, Georgia +7.5%, North Carolina +6.1% and Louisiana 6.0%. Show up and vote happened. Needs to be more local level stuff too. But yes this is good news! nucleicmaxid posted:We are, I promise. You've even been given evidence to the fact that we do multiple times. One of the main ways you can help, since you're too lazy and/or disingenuous to actually do anything is to just stop throwing (already disproven) strawmen about, as it gives ammunition to the HERITAGE NOT HATE idiocy that you and I mutually dislike. Every smug Northern rear end in a top hat who comes in talking down to people because of the region they're from actually exacerbates the divide. If the only people who even pay lip service to respecting you are the ones preaching racism and small government, people are going to start (or continue in some cases) just taking those as part of their culture. It's a problem of perception leading to reality, rather than perception of reality. So then, like I said, what should I do? My goal is to move the window to the left where we can have discussions about climate change, tax policy, and immigration without it being drug to the Right concerning birth control, 10 commandment monuments, and the evils of government spending. So as a Northerner who does not live in the South, but has a vested interest in political change there, what should I do?
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Jul 9, 2014 18:19
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Jastiger posted:So as a Northerner who does not live in the South, but has a vested interest in political change there, what should I do? Work on removing those attitudes from the north.
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Jul 9, 2014 18:23
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America is quite simple really. South = Bad and North = Good. I should write a dissertation on this.
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Jul 9, 2014 18:28
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Jastiger posted:Needs to be more local level stuff too. But yes this is good news! I'd start by putting more effort into social justice than sneering about how the many of the most ethnically and economically diverse parts of the country are fuckin mongloids who are inherently big dumb bigots who can't change unless the literal socialist revolution sweeps America. Like, I guess my non-lovely answer is 'literally do anything' because you're not actually DOING poo poo right now.
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Jul 9, 2014 18:31
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Jastiger posted:So as a Northerner who does not live in the South, but has a vested interest in political change there, what should I do? It's a rural-urban thing everywhere, including where you are. And on that basis, for this issue, 'the South' is not a useful unit of analysis. I live in one of the US's most left wing areas and I get tons of putatively South-compatible drek from people from outside the metro areas. So, like this guy said: Popular Thug Drink posted:Work on removing those attitudes from the north.
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Jul 9, 2014 18:34
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Tatum Girlparts posted:I'd start by putting more effort into social justice than sneering about how the many of the most ethnically and economically diverse parts of the country are fuckin mongloids who are inherently big dumb bigots who can't change unless the literal socialist revolution sweeps America. Actually my argument was that the only way to change the historic power concentrator would have to be some kind of revolution be it economic or military to take those levers of power away from those who have it. The very people southern progressives are fighting against are the very people perpetuating the negative policies we are arguing against here. So no its not that everyone is dumb, it's that the people who have the power are steering the Southern political car to the right because no one else can get a hand on the wheel.
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Jul 9, 2014 18:38
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Jastiger, bless your heart, I am legitimately surprised you were not raped by a hillbilly on your trip "down south" while he yelled at you to squeal like a pig. These things happen and you need to watch out on your next drive down to buy fireworks.
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Jul 9, 2014 18:39
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I'd like to take this opportunity to say, gently caress the Upper Peninsula.
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Jul 9, 2014 18:45
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Jastiger posted:I think this is wrong as far as analogies go. Germans see someone spouting Nazi propaganda and they beat their rear end down with social pressure. In the South it isn't like that. Its "Pride not Hate" and all that when considering the Confederacy. Now, Southern progressives are absolutely not doing that, but obviously, the place isn't run by Southern progressives. Actually, as a southerner whose family is here because of my french alsatian grandfather's service in the german military during WW2, the situation is pretty similar. No, there's not laws banning neo-confederate ideology. That's a cultural difference. Americans love the first amendment. But in fact, yes, those "Heritage Not Hate" folks get pretty riled up when confederate symbology gets used by white nationalists or other open shitheads. They get especialy pissed by people who aren't even southern using them. Are they propagating institutional racism and a false national mythology? Largely yes, but they still are self-aware enough that they loving hate open neo-confederate racism and hatred. Much the same is true in Germany, and Europe at large. No, you can't openly be a neonazi, but there is a sizeable and growing group of far-right nationalists just like in many other parts of Europe (and this is doubly true in places like the former DDR, Austria and Switzerland that weren't hit hard with denazification.) There's the Front National in France, and plenty of groups like them. There's a hell of a lot of people that still lionize Germany and the Wehrmacht when discussing history, and perpetuate the idea that Nazi Germany was a noble and glorious nation tragically misled by a few fanatics. Russians are commonly dehumanized when people who believe in this worldview speak about the war, and Germany is made out to be a persecuted victim whose lust for righteous restitution was co-opted. These nationalists and clean-Wehrmacht believers will violently shout down anyone who actually proclaims themself a nazi but they're perpetuating horrible nazi thought all the same. Just look at media. The noble southerner fighting loyally for hearth and home who nevertheless opposes racism and slavery. The noble german fighting loyally for hearth and home who nevertheless opposes nazism and Hitler. It's hard to find fictional work about either conflict without meeting these two stock characters. Hell, you can probably also find in each work a northerner/american/brit who monologues about how admirable and courageous their foes are and regrets that their leaders follow such a horrendous ideology. vintagepurple fucked around with this message at 18:59 on Jul 9, 2014 |
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Jul 9, 2014 18:53
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Jastiger posted:Actually my argument was that the only way to change the historic power concentrator would have to be some kind of revolution be it economic or military to take those levers of power away from those who have it. The very people southern progressives are fighting against are the very people perpetuating the negative policies we are arguing against here. So no its not that everyone is dumb, it's that the people who have the power are steering the Southern political car to the right because no one else can get a hand on the wheel. The fact that you lumped all our 'people in power' into this is legitimately insulting not just to those of us who have worked for more progressive candidates but to those candidates' work. There are hands on the wheel, who are you to act like they don't exist?
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Jul 9, 2014 19:09
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Sheng-ji Yang posted:Jastiger, bless your heart Now now, there's no need for that kinda language here.
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Jul 9, 2014 19:18
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Banana Tapestry posted:Now now, there's no need for that kinda language here. Jokes only Southerners get.txt
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Jul 9, 2014 19:24
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nucleicmaxid posted:Jokes only Southerners get.txt I know it used to be a way of being all "Oh yeah? gently caress you, then." but I'm not sure if that still holds true.
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Jul 9, 2014 19:31
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Tatum Girlparts posted:The fact that you lumped all our 'people in power' into this is legitimately insulting not just to those of us who have worked for more progressive candidates but to those candidates' work. There are hands on the wheel, who are you to act like they don't exist? Well....I mean that is what started the whole conversation. The Southern red states take in more money than they receive in taxes, much of the opposition to the affordable care act and other such healthcare initiatives come form the Southern red states, they trail in many categories such as infant mortality, abortions, people on public assistance, etc., education isn't funded as well as in other states, we see religious testing in culture more in those states... I'm not saying they don't exist, I'm saying they obviously don't have the pull that is necessary to get the South on a better path to success. And when I say "People in Power" to be a bit pragmatic here, I'm not talking about the folks recently elected to office in the past few years with a D next to their name. The "People in Power" are the Waltons, the Kochs, the wealthy white "old money" that directs campaigns for senators and drives chambers of commerce to meld cultural policies into business ones. I wish it weren't the case, but with capital being the way it is and the love for capitalism in the South, that isn't changing any time soon unless as we mentioned, more people get out and vote at the local level and turn the box upside down.
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Jul 9, 2014 19:36
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Jastiger posted:Well....I mean that is what started the whole conversation. The Southern red states take in more money than they receive in taxes, Again, basically every rural state ("rural" being defined as "below the national average of urbanization" ) and a few urban states take in more money than they receive in taxes.  Noted freeloaders: Washington, Nevada, Vermont, Maryland. computer parts fucked around with this message at 19:41 on Jul 9, 2014 |
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Jul 9, 2014 19:38
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Calling Nevada, Arizona and Utah urban states is kind of hilarious. I mean Arizona is the closest to "urban". But outside of Vegas and Reno, Nevada is a loving wasteland.
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Jul 9, 2014 19:47
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crabcakes66 posted:Calling Nevada, Arizona and Utah urban states is kind of hilarious. I mean Arizona is the closest to "urban". But outside of Vegas and Reno, Nevada is a loving wasteland. The fact that no one lives outside of Reno and Vegas is why Nevada is considered urban. That's the definition of urbanization.
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Jul 9, 2014 19:49
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crabcakes66 posted:Calling Nevada, Arizona and Utah urban states is kind of hilarious. I mean Arizona is the closest to "urban". But outside of Vegas and Reno, Nevada is a loving wasteland. There's a difference between an empty wasteland and a rural population. I'm not saying that there are literally no people in the empty areas, but 'wasteland' doesn't apply to, say, small towns in Georgia. At least not in this context.
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Jul 9, 2014 19:50
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Wade Wilson posted:I know it used to be a way of being all "Oh yeah? gently caress you, then." but I'm not sure if that still holds true. Yeah I grew up in Mississippi and Alabama and have never heard that phrase used in a negative way. It was just what people said to others if something bad happened to them and they wanted them to know that they were sorry for them.
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Jul 9, 2014 19:52
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crabcakes66 posted:Calling Nevada, Arizona and Utah urban states is kind of hilarious. I mean Arizona is the closest to "urban". But outside of Vegas and Reno, Nevada is a loving wasteland. Urban means the population is focused in urban centers, you literally are saying it's hilarious to call them urban because they're urban. Wade Wilson posted:I know it used to be a way of being all "Oh yeah? gently caress you, then." but I'm not sure if that still holds true. Give or take yea, it varies between 'well go gently caress yourself I guess' and 'oh it's cute you're so stupid' depending on who says it and how.
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Jul 9, 2014 19:53
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computer parts posted:The fact that no one lives outside of Reno and Vegas is why Nevada is considered urban. That's the definition of urbanization. Right but it's a dumb way to categorize things as you can bet those urban centers are positive in revenue that get dragged down by having no one else in the rest of a huge state.
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Jul 9, 2014 19:55
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crabcakes66 posted:Right but it's a dumb way to categorize things as you can bet those urban centers are positive in revenue that get dragged down by having no one else in the rest of a huge state. Do you legit not understand urban/rural or what?
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Jul 9, 2014 20:08
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