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crabcakes66 posted:Right but it's a dumb way to categorize things as you can bet those urban centers are positive in revenue that get dragged down by having no one else in the rest of a huge state. No actually the opposite will happen. Since everyone lives in centralized areas you can lower costs (because you don't need as many roads, medical stuff, etc).
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Jul 9, 2014 20:08
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Tatum Girlparts posted:Urban means the population is focused in urban centers, you literally are saying it's hilarious to call them urban because they're urban. Yeah. It's all on tone and context but it's rarely a nice thing unless its something said by a close friend after a legitimate bad happenstance. At least in my experience.
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Jul 9, 2014 20:14
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computer parts posted:No actually the opposite will happen. Since everyone lives in centralized areas you can lower costs (because you don't need as many roads, medical stuff, etc). Basically what I am trying to say is that negative revenue Urban states should get a pass. As the areas where people actually live are really revenue positive. eidt: And you can't expect much revenue from empty land. crabcakes66 fucked around with this message at 20:20 on Jul 9, 2014 |
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Jul 9, 2014 20:17
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Jastiger posted:So then, like I said, what should I do? My goal is to move the window to the left where we can have discussions about climate change, tax policy, and immigration without it being drug to the Right concerning birth control, 10 commandment monuments, and the evils of government spending. So as a Northerner who does not live in the South, but has a vested interest in political change there, what should I do?
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Jul 9, 2014 20:28
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Babylon Astronaut posted:Donate 10% of your income to the Southern Poverty Law Center. If your employer is part of a unified campaign you can even have it deducted automatically from your paycheck. This, the SPLC is a great source of information about current hate groups operating across the country.
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Jul 9, 2014 20:41
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Babylon Astronaut posted:Donate 10% of your income to the Southern Poverty Law Center. If your employer is part of a unified campaign you can even have it deducted automatically from your paycheck. A good idea. I have had close relations with them when I was with the Human Rights Group before.
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Jul 9, 2014 20:42
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Has it not been explained enough times that conservative poo poo is just a rural/small town thing, and not a southern thing per se? Look I hate sweet tea and country music as much as anybody, but that's not really why the south is bad. Rural Wisconsin is also a shithole, as is rural Pennsylvania and rural New England
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Jul 9, 2014 20:48
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icantfindaname posted:Has it not been explained enough times that conservative poo poo is just a rural/small town thing, and not a southern thing per se? Look I hate sweet tea and country music as much as anybody, but that's not really why the south is bad. Rural Wisconsin is also a shithole, as is rural Pennsylvania and rural New England There's a reason we in Maryland refer to southern PA as "Pennsyltucky". Few things are more confusing to me than people living in Gettysburg who fly confederate flags.
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Jul 9, 2014 21:12
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crabcakes66 posted:Basically what I am trying to say is that negative revenue Urban states should get a pass. As the areas where people actually live are really revenue positive. Except that if they were actually revenue positive, they would be listed as revenue positive.
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Jul 9, 2014 21:15
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Talmonis posted:There's a reason we in Maryland refer to southern PA as "Pennsyltucky". Few things are more confusing to me than people living in Gettysburg who fly confederate flags. Gettysburg is a bit silly, but a lot of Appalachian migrants who came north via the hillbilly highway in the early 20th century to work in factories adopted a larger southern cultural identity to band with former southerners who'd moved there generations prior.
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Jul 9, 2014 21:36
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Wow I'm glad that Civil War chat seems to be over. On the subject of politicians who are actually leftist in the south there was the late mayor of the city of Jackson, MS Chokwe Lumumba. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chokwe_Lumumba Although he was originally from Michigan he did a great deal to help the people of Jackson, most notably through community organizing and building up grassroots support over a period of years. He also did a lot if civil rights work, public defender work and most notably represented Tupac Shakur in a case where he was defending himself against two off duty police officers. His election as mayor was fraught with contention. The white liberals in Jackson were advising people to vote for Jonathan Lee instead of him, due in large part to the perception that his past rhetoric and involvement with "radical" organizations would hurt the cities economic growth. He defeated the incumbent black mayor in the general election, and beat Jonathan Lee, a milquetoast centrist, in the runoff. He caught flak early in his tenure as mayor for daring to suggest that schools should not teach the traditional euro-centric notion of Columbus "discovering" America. Which I thought was bullshit since Columbus was a huge mother fucker and deserves none of the adulation he gets. His main accomplishment as Mayor was finally getting a sales tax increase through to fix Jackson's badly crumbling infrastructure. The reason that this was a big deal is because Jackson had been suffering badly from white flight for the past 40 years, and, due to Mississippi state law, any tax increase passed by the city council has to be approved by the legislature, which is largely composed of Rural folks who couldn't care less about the city. He was able to do this, where other administrations had failed through savvy political maneuvering, and his complete insistence that something be done. He was able to shift the window on the issue. Sadly, he died earlier this year. On the subject of Unions and Labor organization in my area the UAW has been trying to unionize the Nissan plant in Canton for years now, and has sought outside help in doing so. http://www.clarionledger.com/story/businessledger/2014/04/28/uaw-turns-to-french-group-state-department-in-nissan-canton-union-push/8421659/ So these are the kinds of things happening down here, other than just What gets picked up by the national media. Although most recently blacks voting in open primaries were the deciding factor in putting down tea party candidate, and noted neo secessionist shitheel Chris McDaniel. I the subject if what northerners can do, and have done, for the disenfranchised in MS. This is the 50th anniversary of Freedom Summer, which if you haven't read up on, do yourself a favor and do it. It was historic in many ways, and Galvanized the larger struggle for Civil rights in the South. When I get home I'll try to post some pictures of that. Prosopagnosiac fucked around with this message at 21:44 on Jul 9, 2014 |
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Jul 9, 2014 21:37
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MizPiz posted:Except that if they were actually revenue positive, they would be listed as revenue positive. Can't have revenue without people. And that image is not even accurate according to wikipedia. In millions of USD: Rev-- Expend Washington $59,880-- $44,771 Nevada $15,858-- $13,651 etc http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_taxation_and_spending_by_state According to this the worst offenders for FY2013 by far are South Carolina and North Dakota.
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Jul 9, 2014 21:44
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Kinda surprised at the number of states in the positive column. That's probably a function of decreased federal allocation to states overall though. It's a stupid argument because it's immaterial which states receive more or less money than the federal government happens to take in within specific geographic boundaries. It's not like federal revenue in Maine is any different than federal revenue in New Mexico. That's the whole point of having a federal government in the first place.
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Jul 9, 2014 21:51
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comes along bort posted:Kinda surprised at the number of states in the positive column. That's probably a function of decreased federal allocation to states overall though. It's usually in response to Republican declarations of Red State superiority.
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Jul 9, 2014 21:53
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Talmonis posted:It's usually in response to Republican declarations of Red State superiority. Yeah I know. It's still stupid and coming from people who should know better.
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Jul 9, 2014 21:54
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Talmonis posted:There's a reason we in Maryland refer to southern PA as "Pennsyltucky". Few things are more confusing to me than people living in Gettysburg who fly confederate flags. I saw a ton of confederate stuff for sale at every gas station I stopped at in west Virginia. Baffling as hell.
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Jul 9, 2014 22:37
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I am a part of the Democratic Socialists of America in Atlanta. I know THAT is a Lost Cause but what organization would have the greatest chance of effecting change? The Democrats? They're barely better than the Republicans these days.
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Jul 10, 2014 14:17
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HonorableTB posted:I am a part of the Democratic Socialists of America in Atlanta. I know THAT is a Lost Cause but what organization would have the greatest chance of effecting change? The Democrats? They're barely better than the Republicans these days. At the very least, a series of Democrat wins would pull the Overton window back toward the left. As a complete and utter Socialist, I understand that the Democrats are basically more socially progressive Republicans, with ever so slightly better fiscal policies. However, within the Democrats you get people like Elizabeth Warren and Barney Frank. With the Republicans you get people like Scott, Santorum, and Cruz. It's a pretty easy choice, so long as you keep the understanding that you aren't going to just.. stop.. when the Democrats start to win more often but, rather, you're going to keep pushing left as hard as you can.
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Jul 10, 2014 15:25
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Honestly, unless your state has open primaries, you should register as a Democrat and do what you can to push them further left.
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Jul 10, 2014 15:40
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nucleicmaxid posted:At the very least, a series of Democrat wins would pull the Overton window back toward the left. As a complete and utter Socialist, I understand that the Democrats are basically more socially progressive Republicans, with ever so slightly better fiscal policies. However, within the Democrats you get people like Elizabeth Warren and Barney Frank. With the Republicans you get people like Scott, Santorum, and Cruz. It's a pretty easy choice, so long as you keep the understanding that you aren't going to just.. stop.. when the Democrats start to win more often but, rather, you're going to keep pushing left as hard as you can. This. As a person that voted for Peta Lindsay in 2008, I have to grit my teeth and go Democrat. It pulls the debate to the left and Democrats seem much more willing to discuss issues instead of locking the shields and saying no no no no no. It makes me sad to know that many of the greatest supports for socialism and general community were in the South and that this was ravaged by the Republicans in the 50s and we're seeing the effects now. Until we have money out of politics and are able to break up the two party system, voting D will do a lot more good than voting socialist.
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Jul 10, 2014 16:48
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BrandorKP posted:And one can talk about how the demographics are changing and how that will eventually overwhelm gerrymandering. But I don't know. I do know that because of redistricting and I ended up on the wrong side of the road to vote for the congressman I wanted to vote for in 2012. The polling place in a church across the street, no go, had to drive a half hour north. Barrow won anyway and his ads and campaigning were well, it speaks for itself. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YvR5qTUOTuY. A couple pages back, but hello fellow 12th district Georgian. Are you near Augusta? sudo rm -rf fucked around with this message at 19:36 on Jul 10, 2014 |
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Jul 10, 2014 19:30
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Talmonis posted:Honestly, unless your state has open primaries, you should register as a Democrat and do what you can to push them further left. In the US if you vote for someone and that person isn't elected your vote counts for nothing.
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Jul 11, 2014 02:40
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Bip Roberts posted:In the US if you vote for someone and that person isn't elected your vote counts for nothing. That's how any single person election works.
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Jul 11, 2014 02:41
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computer parts posted:That's how any single person election works. Single position elections can offer transferable votes, so that even if your first choice doesn't count potentially your second choice might, both delegated primaries and the electoral college were conceived with that notion in mind, albeit with a very select franchise, the problem is that when the franchise was expanded the transferability of those votes was not. Of course a proportionally elected large legislative body would be ideal since basically every vote counts for something.
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Jul 11, 2014 02:51
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Bip Roberts posted:In the US if you vote for someone and that person isn't elected your vote counts for nothing. It does though. If enough people vote for a more leftist Democrat in a primary, it will cause the competition to modify their strategy. Look at the influence the Tea Party has on the Republicans. They're terrified of offending them, or even giving the appearance of working with Democrats or the President. I don't forsee a Democratic left being nearly that influential, but any progress at all would be a good start.
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Jul 11, 2014 14:24
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Talmonis posted:It does though. If enough people vote for a more leftist Democrat in a primary, it will cause the competition to modify their strategy. Look at the influence the Tea Party has on the Republicans. They're terrified of offending them, or even giving the appearance of working with Democrats or the President. I don't forsee a Democratic left being nearly that influential, but any progress at all would be a good start. Voting tea party over regular republican is a good strategy in a republican district. Voting left democrat over blue dog is meaningless because a republican will win anyway.
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Jul 11, 2014 14:45
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Nominating someone even less electable than the blue dog also seems like a good way to get the DNC to completely abandon your district.
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Jul 11, 2014 17:52
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This all sounds like a pretty good argument to radically change how Congress is apportioned. If the collective southern progressive vote actually went towards sending leftists to congress that would go a long way towards changing things, and does anyone really feel that someone that they disagree with from (HOMEDISTRICT) is more representative than someone they mostly agree with from (LIBERALURBANBASTION)? Ideally I'd send progressives FROM here, but progressives from elsewhere are still better than jackass good ol' boys.
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Jul 11, 2014 19:07
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I've always considered a state "Southern" if it was an ex-confederate state and I've experienced a lot more overt prejudice in Southern states than others. I feel like this is the biggest reason we see people expressing negative sentiment about the south or southern culture(I've done this myself). Pointing out de facto segregation in the north doesn't seem very compelling to me because there are larger minority populations in the south and, until just recently, there was a fair amount of federal oversight in southern states when it came to elections etc. After having lived in north Florida for 15 years I feel that racism is very much a facet of "Southern Culture" and that Civil War revisionism is a pass time. This is changing as demographics change, to be sure, but there seems to be a lot of unjustified anger at people pointing this out. EDIT: In addition, a lot of people's perception of southern politics can probably be summed up with Lee Atwater's comments about the southern strategy. I feel like people are still running on it here. DeadmansReach fucked around with this message at 19:31 on Jul 11, 2014 |
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Jul 11, 2014 19:23
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DeadmansReach posted:EDIT: In addition, a lot of people's perception of southern politics can probably be summed up with Lee Atwater's comments about the southern strategy. I feel like people are still running on it here. Some of it is and isn't still true, but that depends on location. Race isn't the only reason large swathes of the south should be considered backwards. Wall o'text coming. Some of it's rather stream of consciousness. I live in south Georgia, and yeah, it's pretty backwards. I'm originally from a tiny dot on the map, but have moved to something sadly considered mid-sized, though it's less than 17,000 people. Albany was mentioned a few pages ago. Albany is messed up. Originally majority white, it rapidly became majority black. Old rich whites still have a good amount of power, but the city's just a big hellhole. Martin Luther King couldn't get anything fixed during the Civil Rights days and the mayor - like so many other people - declared that Civil Rights was solely the work of outside agitators and that their blacks were good (quiet) blacks who were quite happy with their lot in life.. He also ran for governor supporting Vietnam and making veiled references to the Civil Rights Act of 1964. He later did an about-face and there are some who believe he was sincere. I'm undecided. He has a lot of stuff named for him. Everything that surrounds Albany is also a hellhole, just more rural. Lee County grew in population because of white flight and openly flaunts it. There is a big church that moved from Albany to just across the county line. It is visible from Albany proper and it just laughs at you. Everything in Lee County is done with a wink because everybody knows that a lot of Albany's big businesses fled because of race reasons. Doesn't help that Albany's politics have been extremely messed up. It's the type of place where, needing a new school superintendent, had 35 candidates, ranked in order of suitability by a committee. They took the one ranked 33rd. The rest of area around Albany is a rural backwater, but that's true of everything not named Valdosta. The OP probably thinks of Valdosta also as a rung of hell, but with the exception of being Republican and Tea Party as poo poo, thanks to Moody Air Force Base, is reasonably well-adjusted. City education is its main problem, but fault lies divided between football, white flight and the county ceasing to be a rural backwater. You could probably pin a lot of problems on prep football. It runs most of these places. Being good at football takes precedence over education. A former teacher of mine was hired at a rural middle Georgia public school that has a student population of about 600 to be head football coach. They're giving him $100,000 to coach a bad team (and continue losing). It's an area where the per capita income is $18,000 and graduation rate is less than 70%. That said, prep football is a lot of the reason race relations are pretty decent. Most folks around here are willing to embrace athletes of any skin color as long as they do them a service athletically. Tailback gets busted for open container? Can he still run? There are folks willing to root for the biggest shitheads of all races just because they win a few games. Really, it's what eased integration in a lot of places. There's a town to the north of here that was an absolute crazy place with riots* and lots and lots of resistance to integration. That changed when they realized this 6'10" black kid was darn good at hoops. Your old folks around here are probably like most old folks: cool, cool but liable to say out-of-date words or cranks. I don't know if it's the case for areas outside the south, but there's a lot of noblesse oblige from the proper old ladies. They help anybody because they believe it's their job as rich people and generally help anybody because of the poor darlings who just haven't been raised with their level of civility. It's not a far cry, really, from the pre-Civil Rights era attitude that poor whites and blacks were inferior to their noble upbringing. Yep, there's still a good amount of closed doors racism. Very few people are going to be all Lester Maddox pickax on display nuts in public. What you mostly have are the attitudes. Like African-Americans are naturally dumber, that their women are loose, that they're more inclined to steal. Most, even down here, keep their children in public school. Private schools once ran rampant, but the numbers are way down. You do have a ton of neo-segregation academies (and public charter schools, like the one for rich kids in otherwise poor as dirt Greene County), but have little in the way of numbers and most are those really radical fundamentalist things who think Darwin and Lucifer are synonymous. Race might not even be as big of a stumbling block in the ol' solid south as religion, come to think of it. Mormons are left of center here, to the point the local Baptists tried to pick a fight with them. One last note for the wall of text: Atlanta may be decently liberal now, but in the 1960s-70s there was another part of the "Atlanta is the city too busy to hate" mantra. "Atlanta is the city too busy to hate because it's too busy moving. White flight was insane. South Fulton fled to north Fulton or to Jonesboro or Fayetteville or Decatur. Decatur fled in the 1980s to Gwinnett or Covington or Douglasville. Gwinnett has starting fleeing for Cumming and McDonough and I think it's about to hit Ellijay. Oh, and to mention north Florida. Yes, north Florida is quite similar to south Georgia, though I've been told that Gadsden County takes the prize for backwardsness. RC and Moon Pie fucked around with this message at 00:31 on Jul 12, 2014 |
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Jul 12, 2014 00:28
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DeadmansReach posted:I've always considered a state "Southern" if it was an ex-confederate state and I've experienced a lot more overt prejudice in Southern states than others. I feel like this is the biggest reason we see people expressing negative sentiment about the south or southern culture(I've done this myself). Pointing out de facto segregation in the north doesn't seem very compelling to me because there are larger minority populations in the south and, until just recently, there was a fair amount of federal oversight in southern states when it came to elections etc. Maybe the reason you see more overt prejudices in the south is that there are more minorities (again, you're more likely to be poor and black in Vermont than in Georgia). Also it's quite clearly not just "ex-confederate" since people are unironically including Kentucky and West Virginia in those states. computer parts fucked around with this message at 02:29 on Jul 12, 2014 |
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Jul 12, 2014 02:26
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Yeah but it seems that somebody is more likely to call me a kike and be an rear end in a top hat to my wife in Florida. Anecdotes aren't data and all but overt racism just seems more accepted in the South.
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Jul 12, 2014 03:29
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DeadmansReach posted:Yeah but it seems that somebody is more likely to call me a kike and be an rear end in a top hat to my wife in Florida. Anecdotes aren't data and all but overt racism just seems more accepted in the South. Only time I ever got called a kike in the past few years was by a shithead Jersey Shore reject on vacation in New Orleans. To be honest I was kinda proud he even knew that was a slur, that's a deep cut for one of those dipshits. Anecdote fight! Also again, it was California that had the sign literally saying 'friend of the family, don't let the sun set on you in Hawthorne'.
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Jul 12, 2014 04:55
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oh i'm a good ol rebel now that's just what i am and for this yankee nation i do not give a drat i'm glad we fit agin her i only wish we won and i don't ask any pardon for anything we done i hates the yankee nation and everything they do i hates the declaration of independence too i hates the glorious union, 'tis drippin with our blood i hates the striped banner, and fit it all i could i rode with o marse Robert for four year thereabout got wounder in four places and starved at point lookout i catched the rheumatism a-campin' in the snow but i killed a chance o'yankees and i'd liked to kill some mo' three hunnerd thousand yankees are stiff in southron dust we got three hunnerd thousand afore they conquered us they dided o' southron fever and soutrhon steel and shot i wished they was three million instead o' what we got i can't take up my musket and fit 'em now no more but i ain't gonna love 'em now that is certain sure and i don't ask no pardon for what i was and am and i won't be reconstructd and i do not give a drat
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Jul 12, 2014 08:38
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CHORUS: I kin kip ma' freedom'n y'all kin kip yer change marriage is tradition, this adam and steve is strange i jes' want my healthcare billed upfront for my pains so I'll jes' kip ma' freedom'n y'alls kin kip yer change
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Jul 14, 2014 01:31
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DynamicSloth posted:Of course a proportionally elected large legislative body would be ideal since basically every vote counts for something. 
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Jul 14, 2014 01:59
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Heck, while we're at it we could make a new constitution with all the political amenities of the past 200 years oh and also socialism, world peace and free drugs for everyone
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Jul 14, 2014 02:42
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icantfindaname posted:Heck, while we're at it we could make a new constitution with all the political amenities of the past 200 years You wouldn't have world peace unless you killed or at least forcibly relocated at least a few ethnic groups.
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Jul 14, 2014 02:47
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computer parts posted:You wouldn't have world peace unless you killed or at least forcibly relocated at least a few ethnic groups.
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Jul 14, 2014 04:15
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computer parts posted:You wouldn't have world peace unless you killed or at least forcibly relocated at least a few ethnic groups. This may be the most disturbing statement of the thread thus far.
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Jul 14, 2014 12:19
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