Who What Now posted:"What are you talking about, those filthy loving browns don't know what's good for themselves. They just need to be shown how great democracy, cheap beer, and giant lake titties are, then they'll see. Or by Lord Jesus we'll make them see. Such is the white man's burden." What's funny about this post, and more than a little sad, is that in ironically decrying supposed racism on the part of others you are engaging in racism against "the wrong kind" of whites like you're a Coulteresque caricature of a liberal, and you're ignoring the factual evidence that the Iraqi people have disliked the illiberal actions of the al-Maliki government like misogynistic (not that we are supposed to describe out-culture laws and mores in that way, except when we are) laws and religious favoritism in government. In fact, about the only people who endorse that canard about some people
|
|
#
?
Jul 18, 2014 15:21
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 2, 2024 02:42 |
|
|
Ah yes, racism against neocolonialists - the only true racism.
|
|
#
?
Jul 18, 2014 15:32
|
|
|
So let's go over our theocracy so far: we've got bread for the poor, an officially sanctioned Church, the Church endorsing the politicians but not actually running the government, you can gently caress dudes but don't say gay or live a gay lifestyle, women are subject to men, and Onward Christian Soldiers in endless war against the barbarians. Holy poo poo, we've been making the wrong comparisons: what the Catholics really want is the Roman Empire back...which actually makes a certain kind of sense...
|
|
#
?
Jul 18, 2014 15:39
|
|
|
Effectronica posted:What's funny about this post, and more than a little sad, is that in ironically decrying supposed racism on the part of others you are engaging in racism against "the wrong kind" of whites like you're a Coulteresque caricature of a liberal, and you're ignoring the factual evidence that the Iraqi people have disliked the illiberal actions of the al-Maliki government like misogynistic (not that we are supposed to describe out-culture laws and mores in that way, except when we are) laws and religious favoritism in government. In fact, about the only people who endorse that canard about some people I'm super-duper sorry that my reverse-racism triggered you so badly. I want this to be a safe space for you to be as a big a racist as you want without feeling oppressed.
|
|
#
?
Jul 18, 2014 15:45
|
|
Who What Now posted:I'm super-duper sorry that my reverse-racism triggered you so badly. I want this to be a safe space for you to be as a big a racist as you want without feeling oppressed. If "left coast" or "latte liberal" are slurs (not in the Livejournal Leftist TM sense), then "redneck/Middle America" is also a slur in this context, and one that relies on insulting people by culture/regional origin, which is coterminous with racism the majority of the time. I guess some cultures are worse than others, not worthy of respect. Very consistent with the cultural relativism underlying "Democracy is unsuitable for
|
|
|
#
?
Jul 18, 2014 15:55
|
|
|
"Latte Liberal" is not any kind of slur, that's retarded. Redneck is also not a slur, or at least it's not a meaningful slur.
|
|
#
?
Jul 18, 2014 16:02
|
|
|
VitalSigns posted:So let's go over our theocracy so far: we've got bread for the poor, an officially sanctioned Church, the Church endorsing the politicians but not actually running the government, you can gently caress dudes but don't say gay or live a gay lifestyle, women are subject to men, and Onward Christian Soldiers in endless war against the barbarians. Rome was pretty cool. Have you seen the hit TV show Rome on HBO? Seems pretty alright to me, op.
|
|
#
?
Jul 18, 2014 16:09
|
|
|
Effectronica posted:Very consistent with the cultural relativism underlying "Democracy is unsuitable for Wait wait, I thought that you oppose liberal democracy as an unstable system subject to mob passions and vulnerable to powerful interests that take advantage of sectarian infighting to advance a self-serving agenda. Shouldn't you be pointing to the collapse of Maliki's government as proof that democracy is unworkable, imposing it as a panacea is foolish, and that America's corrupt democracy ran the invasion at the pleasure of business interests with humanitarian reasons purely as cover? I don't get this. You're so eager to distance yourself from neocon false-Christians on social justice, why do you stump in support of exporting at gunpoint a system you despise? Isn't that the premise of the thread? That secular democracy is corrupt and violent, when what we need is religious leaders with a lifetime of spiritual and moral training?
|
|
#
?
Jul 18, 2014 16:17
|
|
Who What Now posted:"Latte Liberal" is not any kind of slur, that's retarded. Redneck is also not a slur, or at least it's not a meaningful slur. I see that you have embarqued 'pon a voyage of retreat into the seas of syntactical kind, from which ye hope to remain unassailed via the chase. A pox upon thy false ingenue self, but I'll not follow thee further. Sail to hell if thee like, and all thy cohort with thee.
|
|
|
#
?
Jul 18, 2014 16:25
|
|
VitalSigns posted:Wait wait, I thought that you oppose liberal democracy as an unstable system subject to mob passions and vulnerable to powerful interests that take advantage of sectarian infighting to advance a self-serving agenda. Lad, lass, or whatever else ye wish to be called, you either misapprehend entire or are a liar of gruesome proportion. Amending that shall be the true way to turn monologue into dia, should ye seek that.
|
|
|
#
?
Jul 18, 2014 16:30
|
|
|
Effectronica posted:I see that you have embarqued 'pon a voyage of retreat into the seas of syntactical kind, from which ye hope to remain unassailed via the chase. A pox upon thy false ingenue self, but I'll not follow thee further. Sail to hell if thee like, and all thy cohort with thee. How can I retreat from a position I never held? -EDIT- I see you're deep in the gimmick defense. I wonder how long before you get to puppet master? Who What Now fucked around with this message at 16:34 on Jul 18, 2014 |
|
#
?
Jul 18, 2014 16:31
|
|
Who What Now posted:How can I retreat from a position I never held? Are you, perhaps, prescribed medication you aren't taking? Or is your posting career being boosted by cactus-button tea? Because this is pure nonsense built around justifying unreasoning hatred and reliant on sophistic methods. You should be ashamed, an you had a soul.
|
|
|
#
?
Jul 18, 2014 16:45
|
|
|
One argument I keep seeing here is that since theocracies like Iran and the Papal State did bad things, Theocracies are inherently bad. Yet secular governments like Pol Pot's, Mao's, Hitler's and Stalin's together killed almost a hundred million people, perhaps much more than those killed by wars of religion, yet no one says a peep about it?
|
|
#
?
Jul 18, 2014 16:49
|
|
|
Effectronica posted:Are you, perhaps, prescribed medication you aren't taking? Or is your posting career being boosted by cactus-button tea? Because this is pure nonsense built around justifying unreasoning hatred and reliant on sophistic methods. You should be ashamed, an you had a soul. I did take all my medication this morning, thank you for checking.
|
|
#
?
Jul 18, 2014 16:56
|
|
|
Effectronica posted:Lad, lass, or whatever else ye wish to be called, you either misapprehend entire or are a liar of gruesome proportion. Amending that shall be the true way to turn monologue into dia, should ye seek that. Secular democracy is bad unless Glorious America is imposing it resource-rich states at gunpoint. Okay, got it. TheLovablePlutonis posted:One argument I keep seeing here is that since theocracies like Iran and the Papal State did bad things, Theocracies are inherently bad. Yet secular governments like Pol Pot's, Mao's, Hitler's and Stalin's together killed almost a hundred million people, perhaps much more than those killed by wars of religion, yet no one says a peep about it? All those horrible governments you mentioned were all run by dark-haired men, so obviously we need a ginger dictatorship. Hey it makes about as much sense as boiling it down a huge variety of cultures and government types into "secularism". The real reason for references to theocracies that did not live up to the grand ideals posters are claiming they will is to get supporters to explain what is different and why this time a theocracy won't warmonger*, abuse minorities, or support fascism. Care to try? No one else has bothered. *Well that criticism may no longer apply after these last few pages revealed that fighting the Forever War is a feature of theocracy, not a bug. Jihad!
|
|
#
?
Jul 18, 2014 17:01
|
|
|
VitalSigns posted:All those horrible governments you mentioned were all run by dark-haired men, so obviously we need a ginger dictatorship. Hey it makes about as much sense as boiling it down a huge variety of cultures and government types into "secularism". Hitler persecuted the pacifist Jehovah's witnesses, while Mao, Stalin and Pol Pot were explicitly anti-religious, using the state machinery to kill church members and religious people. Stop being dense.
|
|
#
?
Jul 18, 2014 17:04
|
|
|
|
|
#
?
Jul 18, 2014 17:07
|
|
|
TheLovablePlutonis posted:Hitler persecuted the pacifist Jehovah's witnesses, while Mao, Stalin and Pol Pot were explicitly anti-religious, using the state machinery to kill church members and religious people. Stop being dense. Yes, cults of personality dictatorships often stamp out institutions that can threaten their monopoly on power. It's a good thing we don't live in one of those.
|
|
#
?
Jul 18, 2014 17:08
|
|
|
Pol Pot didn't have a cult of personality.
|
|
#
?
Jul 18, 2014 17:12
|
|
|
It is of course obvious, as Who What Now the Grand Marshal of the idiot parade has demonstrated, that whenever a secular government does ill, it is actually a religious government. Thus we can see that secular governments are incapable of evil.
|
|
|
#
?
Jul 18, 2014 17:14
|
|
|
Who What Now posted:Yes, cults of personality dictatorships often stamp out institutions that can threaten their monopoly on power. It's a good thing we don't live in one of those. No but our dictatorship will be better because the Bible says "thou shalt not kill" therefore... TheLovablePlutonis posted:Hitler persecuted the pacifist Jehovah's witnesses, while Mao, Stalin and Pol Pot were explicitly anti-religious, using the state machinery to kill church members and religious people. Stop being dense. So care to explain why our theocracy will be different than those other theocracies? I'd really like an answer to this question.
|
|
#
?
Jul 18, 2014 17:15
|
|
|
Effectronica posted:It is of course obvious, as Who What Now the Grand Marshal of the idiot parade has demonstrated, that whenever a secular government does ill, it is actually a religious government. Thus we can see that secular governments are incapable of evil. Oh they were totally secular. They just didn't fail because they were secular. There's a small but very important distinction there, but if you pull up your big boy britches and reeeeeaaaaally think hard about it I'm sure you'll get it someday.
|
|
#
?
Jul 18, 2014 17:20
|
|
|
your life probably won't change too much unless you are downtrodden or unless you own capital.
|
|
#
?
Jul 18, 2014 17:20
|
|
|
Who What Now posted:Oh they were totally secular. They just didn't fail because they were secular. There's a small but very important distinction there, but if you pull up your big boy britches and reeeeeaaaaally think hard about it I'm sure you'll get it someday. Secularism cannot fail- it can only be failed.
|
|
#
?
Jul 18, 2014 17:21
|
|
|
Miltank posted:Secularism cannot fail- it can only be failed. No, it can fail. Those just weren't examples of secularism failing, but the failing of dictatorships.
|
|
#
?
Jul 18, 2014 17:23
|
|
Who What Now posted:Oh they were totally secular. They just didn't fail because they were secular. There's a small but very important distinction there, but if you pull up your big boy britches and reeeeeaaaaally think hard about it I'm sure you'll get it someday. Thish, I declare, is ideology.
|
|
|
#
?
Jul 18, 2014 17:24
|
|
|
Effectronica posted:Thish, I declare, is ideology. How drunk are you that you are slurring your posts?
|
|
#
?
Jul 18, 2014 17:25
|
|
|
Who What Now posted:How drunk are you that you are slurring your posts? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDtoRydIzjI
|
|
#
?
Jul 18, 2014 17:25
|
|
|
TheLovablePlutonis posted:One argument I keep seeing here is that since theocracies like Iran and the Papal State did bad things, Theocracies are inherently bad. Yet secular governments like Pol Pot's, Mao's, Hitler's and Stalin's together killed almost a hundred million people, perhaps much more than those killed by wars of religion, yet no one says a peep about it? rudatron fucked around with this message at 17:55 on Jul 18, 2014 |
|
#
?
Jul 18, 2014 17:42
|
|
|
Miltank posted:your life probably won't change too much unless you are downtrodden or unless you own capital. Or you're a person who's part of a religious outgroup and wants representation. By creating differences in the ability to have the government represent different religious groups, you've created a scenario of the unrepresented, which is a pretty straight line towards exploitation historically. At best, you'd get a "white man's burden" type of thing where the empowered class tries to halfway guess and appease the underclass with something less than full societal participation. Western democracy doesn't have a great track record with this either, but the solution is not to take a giant step away from the people being given control over the levers of power. As Ghandi said, good government is no substitue for self government. The better theocracies suggested here are benevolently authoritarian towards outgroups, and the worse are just bog standard oppression.
|
|
#
?
Jul 18, 2014 18:00
|
|
|
.
buttcoin smuggler fucked around with this message at 15:18 on Dec 29, 2014 |
|
#
?
Jul 18, 2014 18:02
|
|
|
buttcoin smuggler posted:You're a good poster, OP. Real fine work. Are you making fun of me?
|
|
#
?
Jul 18, 2014 18:16
|
|
|
.
buttcoin smuggler fucked around with this message at 15:18 on Dec 29, 2014 |
|
#
?
Jul 18, 2014 18:46
|
|
rudatron posted:'No one says a peep about it' is categorically false, you've clearly never actually read D&D threads on it. But that argument as presented is dumb. The actual arguments put forward against theocracies are subtler, but you willfully ignore that for the joy of trolling D&D. This is a serious accusation. Trolling is one of the most horrific ecrimes imaginable. Do you have some clear evidence that will allow us to take down the troll?
|
|
|
#
?
Jul 18, 2014 18:51
|
|
|
rudatron posted:'No one says a peep about it' is categorically false, you've clearly never actually read D&D threads on it. But that argument as presented is dumb. The actual arguments put forward against theocracies are subtler, but you willfully ignore that for the joy of trolling D&D. Ah dismissing my argument as a troll. What now, ad hominems? Great discourse level here on Debate Disco.
|
|
#
?
Jul 18, 2014 18:55
|
|
|
TheLovablePlutonis posted:Ah dismissing my argument as a troll. What now, ad hominems? Great discourse level here on Debate Disco. So not interested in explaining how we will avoid the problems of previous theocracies then? Should I go first and explain how liberal democracy is dissimilar to Nazi Germany in certain important ways, or are you just going to bundle them together as "secularism" regardless?
|
|
#
?
Jul 18, 2014 19:12
|
|
|
Take responsibility for your own actions, my friend. The 'discourse level' starts with you!
|
|
#
?
Jul 18, 2014 19:30
|
|
|
TheLovablePlutonis posted:Ah dismissing my argument as a troll. What now, ad hominems? Great discourse level here on Debate Disco. Good point, latecoming poster who's entry to an already-lovely thread was "  b-b-but Stalin and Pol Pot! " I can't imagine why people might not take you all that seriously, and instead suspect that you're intentionally trying to rile everyone up. An unfathomable mystery, truly.
|
|
#
?
Jul 18, 2014 19:33
|
|
|
BrandorKP posted:I'm obsessed with Paul Tillich, my sentence structure could have been clearer. But I was pretty trashed. Anyway Tillich is probably the only theologian to call Nietzsche a prophet, at least he's the only one I've ever seen do it explicitly.
|
|
#
?
Jul 18, 2014 19:40
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 2, 2024 02:42 |
|
|
Theocratic authority tends to be a very top-down with no inherent check on its use. Divine Right, Papal Infallacy, Fundamentalist 'morality' you name it, its a bitch to change or resist when those bodies are the ruling authority. If then that ruling authority gets all nasty, its not going to dislodge itself peacefully. That doesn't mean a secular government can't be dramatically horrible and commit all kinds of abuses, its just that one particular angle in which authority is assumed or recognized doesn't have real traction. This should allow you setup a functional liberal democracy without having to worry about any of those above strains of theocratic authority mucking up the system's balancing act. So secularism by itself doesn't guarantee benevolent behavior, its just one practical filter/method out of many in which a society can apply to try and get both a functional and rational government working on its behalf. Berk Berkly fucked around with this message at 19:46 on Jul 18, 2014 |
|
#
?
Jul 18, 2014 19:44
|
|