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The problem with open immigration is that it would be used to drive wages even further down. I don't think that the average American can compete on wages with someone from another country with the cost of our education being as high as it is. But we should vastly increase the amount of people allowed in. I like the idea of having to invest in the country in some way, whether financially or with your time. This would allow so called "non-skilled" labor into the country in a fair manner, instead of denying them outright. While also helping to fix our infastructure. America is nowhere near full, the midwest has plenty of space. Oh, and eliminate any kind of visa that doesn't lead to citizenship (and for that express purpose). Unless there's a way to stop funds being sent out of the country.
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Jul 16, 2014 14:15
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Cercadelmar posted:I think that's indentured servitude you're proposing. Working a productive job for the US Government is indentured servitude? If Sweden offered road work for citizenship, I'd jump at the chance. (Do I really have to specify that they'd be paid? If so, yes. Of course they would.)
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Jul 16, 2014 14:37
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Cercadelmar posted:There's no way to guarantee this wouldn't just be another method of exploiting people desperate to emigrate. One of the biggest problems with how immigrant labor is used in America is the fact that without citizenship, people feel unable to defend themselves from abusive working environments. A common story around here is workers being threatened with deportation if they speak to the authorities about the conditions they work under. Under the private sector, I absolutely agree with you. But if it's a Federal (not state, as they can't be trusted) government program, it could be strictly regulated and handled properly.
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Jul 16, 2014 15:00
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Cercadelmar posted:Not a very feasible idea. It would only take workers out of places dependent on immigrants, like agriculture and retail, and put them into infrastructure projects that are already done by the private sector. Perhaps those places should pay a proper wage, instead of relying on the desperate and afraid. Yes prices would go up, but they should go up. Subsidies should be shifted from corn and tobacco to more nutritious crops (never going to happen of course, like the rest of this). Women tend to work in America unless you're rich enough to live on a single income and have kids, or destitute enough to warrant welfare. Ideally, we aren't immigrating people who can't contribute to society. Workers, no matter how "unskilled" contribute to society just fine, before someone thinks I'm being some kind of monster. Children go to school in whatever local district they're in. Breaking up families is inhuman. It may not be feasible, but nothing is in the current climate of jingoist hatred and nativism.
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Jul 16, 2014 16:26
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SedanChair posted:If we had the political capital to accomplish any of this, we could just remove all restrictions on immigration. But why would we remove all restrictions? That could easily collapse the social programs we have, and drive wages into the dirt with a massive influx of cheap labor. Hell, you could have China or India up and send a few million people over to gently caress with the political system in their favor. Nations would start sending their most destitute, their criminals and their disabled, simply to be rid of them. Restrictions do have a purpose, even if the current purpose is a lovely one.
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Jul 16, 2014 16:45
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Cercadelmar posted:I never mentioned price hikes, I think you've misinterpreted why I think this is a dumb idea. Gotcha. Yeah it isn't currently feasible to fund infastructure projects, but it would be if we cut military spending to a reasonable first world level, and raised capital gains taxes. So you know, fantasy land. Depressing.
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Jul 16, 2014 18:06
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BetterToRuleInHell posted:While I may not agree with on the left's stance on immigration, attacking his wife is uncalled for. It is absolutely understandable that he and his loved one would be upset that she is lawfully trying to enter the country and is stuck behind bureaucracy while immigrants who have illegally crossed the border are apparently being bussed to different towns in different states without the town's knowledge ahead of time and immigrants are not even required to attend their deportation trial. They're not informed ahead of time because of the potential violence and political consequences that the right will shower them with.
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Jul 16, 2014 19:26
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Elotana posted:most get paid under fake SSNs or stolen identities and get their FICA withheld just like everyone else. This should not be lauded as a good thing. I'd much prefer they are given access to proper government ID, drivers licenses and other needed forms of ID/liability insurance. They should be made to follow zoning laws like everyone else. They should have to carry insurance like everyone else. These costs should apply to them as it does to existing residents, so they can't undercut local labor. People are coming here regardless of the law. It's easier and cheaper to document them to mitigate the damage, and a hell of a lot cheaper then deporting masses of families. Deport the criminals only, including anyone who steals someone's identity.
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Jul 17, 2014 14:06
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computer parts posted:Things that have changed: there are now less You also don't see poor African Americans or Asian Americans in those positions, and it's due to the fact that they don't pay living wages for backbreaking work. The only reason they get away with pay that little, is because of the captive immigrant population who are unable to purchase insurance, and are typically living multiple families to a single apartment or house. If they didn't have the threat of deportation looming, and were able to be documented, that would be resolved and they'd need to be paid a lot more. Wages would go up as they should, and competition would increase for those jobs.
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Jul 17, 2014 16:31
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computer parts posted:The reason you don't see poor Black people or Asians in those jobs is that combined they make up about 15% of the population in the US. Yes, wages should go up and there should be more accountability to make sure they're not making GBS threads on people but even with that those jobs are going to be (vastly) majority Hispanic. I think more people, regardless of race are going to be heading for farm and manual work when it starts to pay more than just working at WalMart. The narrative from the media that "Americans think those jobs are beneath them" is wrong, as most of the American poor are stuck in the service industry. I can't think of a job lower in social status then "Wal Mart cashier". At least, that's how they're treated in any case.
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Jul 17, 2014 16:48
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Cercadelmar posted:The blame for lowered wages should be placed solely on the farms underpaying and exploiting their workers, not on the workers themselves. I disagree to a point, as they accept these wages and violate zoning and other laws to be able to do so, and business will always exploit and underpay when they can get away with it. Labor needs an equal playing field to compete, and we should not be racing to the bottom and trashing our living standards to do so. But all that said, regardless of their complicity in the arrangement, it's up to the Government to fix the issue. Amnesty for lack of documentation, access to documentation and work visas/residency, and enforcement of zoning/insurance requirements will fix it. I would however, prefer if they had to go through background checks and prove they're a productive member of society before becoming a citizen eligible to vote. 3 years should be plenty of an opportunity to prove you can pay your taxes and remain employed enough to not rely on social services to survive.
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Jul 17, 2014 17:29
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Amused to Death posted:I rely on a social service to survive and have for what will be going on 3 years at this point, am I no longer allowed to vote? You're a citizen, you cannot lose your rights unless you're a criminal (who should also be able to vote). You can't expect a nation to accept a mass influx of new people who are incapable (or unwilling) of paying into the system enough to not be a cost burden. No other nation does so. The system is designed to take care of only so many people. Open immigration without restriction would see other countries dumping millions of the most desperate, disabled and handicapped on our shores to avoid paying for their care themselves.
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Jul 17, 2014 18:13
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computer parts posted:Yes, tying residency to employment when unemployment is between 7-12% is a good idea. If we have mass unemployment, adding more people without jobs is a terrible idea.
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Jul 17, 2014 18:30
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Amused to Death posted:Which is probably why we shouldn't say "border is open, everyone gets green cards who shows up". Holding that standard to people already here though is inane because it's an impossible standard, especially when the people we're talking about tend to be poor people. I mean if someone has kids they're automatically going to be a burden until those kids are out of school. Plus the expansion of Medicaid means that a whole lot of people will be dependent on a government service for a good portion of their lives. This is a good point. People already here should be given citizenship after a background check for criminality. Though I think my standard is just fine for any new arrivals. We need to have some kind of standards.
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Jul 17, 2014 18:32
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Cercadelmar posted:Generally the people who choose to emigrate are the ones who are healthy enough to find work in America, or who have family or friends already in America to care for them. In both cases the cost to support the "desperate, disabled and handicapped" would be either irrelevant, or handled by their family and friends. In the case of a person becoming disabled after coming to America, it would be wrong to not provide basic assistance. Also like computer parts said, steady work is sometimes hard to find, even during an economic high point. Call me naive, but I feel the vast majority of people want to be self sufficient and hardworking. What you're saying is the same sort of argument that's used to deprive people of necessary social welfare and assistance. I don't disagree with you. I'm saying that if we totally open the borders and immigration, other countries will straight up dump people they don't want on our shores like Californian communities do with their homeless populations.
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Jul 17, 2014 18:37
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computer parts posted:What you're proposing is that if anyone came to the country within 3 years of a recession they should pack up and leave. And what you're proposing is paying for unemployed foreign nationals to live here at the expense of the employed. You'll validate the bullshit claims of every Tea Party racist around.
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Jul 17, 2014 18:41
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Amused to Death posted:If you're going to set standards, you set the standards so it applies to people before they even enter the country. You don't let someone enter the country and go "Well you can live here, assuming you don't get laid off or the economy doesn't tank, otherwise good luck bro" The problem is we don't have any proposals to stop people from entering the country illegally that doesn't involve roving bands of armed rednecks.
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Jul 17, 2014 18:43
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| # ¿ May 16, 2024 03:57 |
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Amused to Death posted:Make employers actually check SS numbers, boom, I solved the problem. Partially, yes. We still need to help the people still here with documentation.
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Jul 17, 2014 18:46
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