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Adar posted:Okay, read up on him a bit and yeah as the most visible undocumented guy in the country he's protected enough to get away with that. If anyone reading this is in the same situation or remotely close, do not do what he just did. I say this as an ex-nonprofit immigration lawyer: there are ways to practice civil disobedience that don't have permanent consequences, but this is not one of them and he was incredibly lucky. I don't think he had much of a choice. They've been setting up border patrol checkpoints north of the RGV lately, which limits the options on how to leave here. Like Vargas said, undocumented people are pretty much trapped.
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Jul 16, 2014 00:19
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on the left posted:That's the point, we are trying to detect them and deport them. Of course, it is stupid that we set up checkpoints when we could just make it impossible to get a job or enroll in school as an illegal immigrant, which would wipe out the problem neatly. I don't agree with the idea that these people are a problem to be solved. We can chat anecdotes all day, but fact is that most undocumented citizens come looking to find work and stay out of trouble.
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Jul 16, 2014 11:25
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on the left posted:Immigration reform shouldn't be done by choosing to ignore immigration law, and when you have illegal immigration, you give up the ability to control who lives in your country. Who do you think should live in our country?
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Jul 16, 2014 13:37
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I think that's indentured servitude you're proposing.
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Jul 16, 2014 14:23
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Talmonis posted:Working a productive job for the US Government is indentured servitude? If Sweden offered road work for citizenship, I'd jump at the chance. (Do I really have to specify that they'd be paid? If so, yes. Of course they would.) There's no way to guarantee this wouldn't just be another method of exploiting people desperate to emigrate. One of the biggest problems with how immigrant labor is used in America is the fact that without citizenship, people feel unable to defend themselves from abusive working environments. A common story around here is workers being threatened with deportation if they speak to the authorities about the conditions they work under.
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Jul 16, 2014 14:50
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Talmonis posted:Under the private sector, I absolutely agree with you. But if it's a Federal (not state, as they can't be trusted) government program, it could be strictly regulated and handled properly. Not a very feasible idea. It would only take workers out of places dependent on immigrants, like agriculture and retail, and put them into infrastructure projects that are already done by the private sector. Also I don't see where women and children belong in the utopian transcontinental railroad that's been described.
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Jul 16, 2014 15:43
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Talmonis posted:Perhaps those places should pay a proper wage, instead of relying on the desperate and afraid. Yes prices would go up, but they should go up. Subsidies should be shifted from corn and tobacco to more nutritious crops (never going to happen of course, like the rest of this). I never mentioned price hikes, I think you've misinterpreted why I think this is a dumb idea. My problem is that the government doesn't have a shortage of skilled people willing to do work on infrastructure, or whatever you're proposing. The reason infrastructure isn't maintained is because of a lack of funding, not labor. on the left posted:It's a slap in the face that I have to pay thousands of dollars to bring my spouse over while USCIS refuses to enforce the immigration laws we have. What makes your spouse so special that they deserve citizenship more than the people already living and working here?
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Jul 16, 2014 17:48
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tsa posted:For some reason some ignore that the countries with excellent welfare and social programs universally have extremely strict immigration policies. Almost as if the two go hand in hand. What do you suggest should be done about how we handle immigrants today? BetterToRuleInHell posted:While I may not agree with on the left's stance on immigration, attacking his wife is uncalled for. It is absolutely understandable that he and his loved one would be upset that she is lawfully trying to enter the country and is stuck behind bureaucracy while immigrants who have illegally crossed the border are apparently being bussed to different towns in different states without the town's knowledge ahead of time and immigrants are not even required to attend their deportation trial. What bothers me is how much he disregards the struggle of being undocumented in America today. It isn't "Costanzaing" around like he described, and the fact that he'd say that just makes him seem ignorant of the realities of immigrant life today.
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Jul 16, 2014 19:06
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What's wrong with on the left's opinion is that he's pretty blatantly prejudiced against undocumented citizens. He'll defend the idea that the people he loves are good people who deserve to live here, which isn't a bad thing. But when he's asked about other people, who's only difference is how they got here, he'll make them out to be criminals allowed to run wild by unenforced laws. It's hypocritical at best, and the fact that's he is so willing to avoid speaking about immigrants in the context of human beings, rather than numbers, speaks a lot about his own moral character.
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Jul 17, 2014 04:17
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on the left posted:Part of my family are illegal immigrants to the US, and they really should be deported. That the US hasn't done so is a mark against the immigration enforcement system. Sorry about the bad relationship with your family, still doesn't justify stereotyping entire groups of people or asking to deport people from the lives they've made already.
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Jul 17, 2014 04:36
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on the left posted:That's the point, we are trying to detect them and deport them. Of course, it is stupid that we set up checkpoints when we could just make it impossible to get a job or enroll in school as an illegal immigrant, which would wipe out the problem neatly. on the left posted:We don't even need to deport most people, just effectively enforce the laws we have already. "We don't need to deport most people, just all of them."
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Jul 17, 2014 04:47
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on the left posted:That's the point, we are trying to detect them and deport them. Of course, it is stupid that we set up checkpoints when we could just make it impossible to get a job or enroll in school as an illegal immigrant, which would wipe out the problem neatly. on the left posted:It's not deportation if we make illegal immigration financially unviable. Furthermore, employers who break labor laws are a good target for enforcement.
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Jul 17, 2014 04:59
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on the left posted:Your question doesn't make any sense. Who am I supporting, and what exactly is the statement that is a lie? I'm wondering, how do you feel about the DREAM act? "The original 2001 version would have created a path to legal status — effectively a green card — for undocumented people age 21 and under who had graduated from high school and resided in the U.S. for five years."
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Jul 17, 2014 06:50
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on the left posted:I'm fine with things like that as long as other immigrant classes are treated better. If we are going to hand out green cards, why not also hand out green cards to graduates of US universities and H1B holders who happen to be in the country at the time? Both of those are perfectly reasonable additions to immigration reform. The fact that the the system is failing to accommodate skilled labor into the US just shows that it's inherently flawed and doesn't meet current demands.
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Jul 17, 2014 07:38
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Lief posted:once you're in the united states, immigration checkpoints not on the border are constitutionally-questionable and people are under no obligation to answer their questions nor consent to a search. this is fact and you can find myriad DHS (department of homeland security) refusal videos on youtube showing motorists giving the finger to these law-breaking douchebags, who later give up and send them on their way. these criminals rely on people's ignorance and fear of authority to operate and if more people flex their rights we won't need to abide these fear-mongering weaponized freaks wasting everybody's time. gently caress those guys. I absolutely agree with you, it's a shame that most people from here, undocumented or otherwise, tend to assume that they have less rights than they really do. There should be more awareness of what everyone's rights are regarding searches like this. Edit: looked this up, seems it doesn't apply to undocumented people Immigrant Legal Resource Center posted:E. At the Border -Your rights at the border are different. The “border’” includes not only the line between the U.S. and Mexico or Canada, but also airports and areas close to the border, for example, the border checkpoint near San Clemente, California. In these border places, you have to prove that you have legal permission to be in the U.S. or the Immigration Service can detain you to ask more questions. They can also search you or your bags without a search warrant. Remember that you always have the right to remain silent. Cercadelmar fucked around with this message at 09:05 on Jul 17, 2014 |
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Jul 17, 2014 08:59
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Talmonis posted:People are coming here regardless of the law. It's easier and cheaper to document them to mitigate the damage, and a hell of a lot cheaper then deporting masses of families. Deport the criminals only, including anyone who steals someone's identity. This is definitely something that needs to happen soon, though I think identity theft is already covered by existing laws and doesn't really need to be mentioned. TheRamblingSoul posted:Silly SedanChair, don't you know illegals are just sacks of miasma and pestilence made flesh? We need to ENFORCE THE LAW Judge Dredd-style to protect ourselves! That's another reason why I think on the left holds some personal prejudices against undocumented citizens. There have been good reports on how immigrant labor would be of benefit to the American economy. On the lefts opinions are couched in his own perception of reality, and not what's really happening in places with a large undocumented population. Ezra Klein and Evan Soltas posted:Ultimately, the CBO report rips a layer of artifice from the immigration debate. Few critics of immigration reform really base their opposition on concerns about the deficit or the economy. Their real concern with immigration is cultural and sociological. But that’s dangerous political ground. It’s easier to frame opposition using the bloodless language of the budget than the combustible language of national character and composition." EDIT: on the left posted:I guess it's alright then if labor laws are basically a suggestion. I'll definitely be able to find some people willing to work for a dollar an hour. Now you're just confusing me. You do know that optimally any immigration reform or amnesty would include the same basic labor protections we all have as citizens. No one outside of Freep and Stormfront would propose that we leave these people as vulnerable to exploitation as they were undocumented. Cercadelmar fucked around with this message at 14:51 on Jul 17, 2014 |
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Jul 17, 2014 14:45
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on the left posted:If we want to reform immigration, shouldn't we logically start by offering visas to a couple million recent college graduates looking to start their careers? This would have optimal economic payoff compared to any other group. We should absolutely be offering visas to college graduates. Literally no one but the craziest "burning wall of tires" nationalist would debate that idea. What people have been having problems with, and what you've been delicately avoiding, is that fact that your 'solutions' would break up families and deport skilled workers. All throughout this you've managed to not show an ounce of compassion for the people or communities that would be affected by your ideas. You have gross opinions and you don't even have the courage to defend them. mcmagic posted:So apparently Ted Cruz is going around saying we should deport the DREAM act kids that Obama gave deferred action to. In other news Ted Cruz has found a new low in his quest to be the biggest piece of poo poo in american politics! At least he's consistent, I'll give him that.
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Jul 17, 2014 15:30
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Jarmak posted:I agree that we should be putting more of the burden on the employer, but you can't ignore the fact that in the late 19th and early 20th centuries we had a booming manufacturing economy that was fueled by abusively cheap immigrant labor. There are good arguments for very open immigration policy (I'm thinking along the lines of "you can come in as long as you don't have a criminal history", no limits) but pointing to how it worked great for the economy during the gilded age is an insultingly bad one. It isn't just during the gilded age that towns benefit from added labor and residents, Mcallen, Texas had the best economic recovery post-recession and it's only 10 miles from the border. Rather than having a shortage of jobs to go around, the city's experienced excellent growth in population and industry. It also has a decent amount of public services, or at least as many as Texans will tolerate. Talmonis posted:You also don't see poor African Americans or Asian Americans in those positions, and it's due to the fact that they don't pay living wages for backbreaking work. The only reason they get away with pay that little, is because of the captive immigrant population who are unable to purchase insurance, and are typically living multiple families to a single apartment or house. If they didn't have the threat of deportation looming, and were able to be documented, that would be resolved and they'd need to be paid a lot more. Wages would go up as they should, and competition would increase for those jobs. I'd disagree with your point. On average most farmworkers have only received a 7th grade education. As a result agriculture is one of the few industries they can work in. By contrast, African and Asian Americans tend to receive a, relatively, higher amount of education and have better social mobility. Not to mention that productive harvesting is dependent on experienced workers who are familiar with farmwork already. We have a large stock of experienced Hispanic workers, but comparatively fewer experienced African or Asian American workers. The blame for lowered wages should be placed solely on the farms underpaying and exploiting their workers, not on the workers themselves.
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Jul 17, 2014 16:50
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Jarmak posted:Do you have more data on this? Specifically in regards to what mechanism the increase in available labor helped with the recovery? Here's the article I'm citing for the most recovered since the recession. And you can find two more articles related to the topic here and here. Special attention should be placed on a specific line of the 3rd link, quote:Hispanics represent 90% of the McAllen area population and individuals under 35 years of age make up between 59.3% of the population. The population, although diverse, is defined by two dominant demographic criteria: Hispanic and young. Also here's a piece that goes into more of the general economic benefits of immigration. EDIT: I should add why it's important that most of the population is young. Mcallen's recovery was fueled by having a diverse economy that they were able to take advantage of by having a large amount of easily retrained workers. Cercadelmar fucked around with this message at 17:18 on Jul 17, 2014 |
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Jul 17, 2014 17:13
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Talmonis posted:I disagree to a point, as they accept these wages and violate zoning and other laws to be able to do so, and business will always exploit and underpay when they can get away with it. Labor needs an equal playing field to compete, and we should not be racing to the bottom and trashing our living standards to do so. But all that said, regardless of their complicity in the arrangement, it's up to the Government to fix the issue. Amnesty for lack of documentation, access to documentation and work visas/residency, and enforcement of zoning/insurance requirements will fix it. Although I disagree with the second half of your post, I completely agree that we shouldn't be racing to the bottom and accepting lower wages for hard work. That's why I'd rather that all residents of the US be given the same protections from exploitative labor, like minimum wage and OSHA regulation. If we were to fund stronger regulatory bodies to ensure that no workers are exploited the problem of lowering living standards would be alleviated. A group that does excellent undocumented workers advocacy is Southern Poverty Law Center and they have a good summary and list of what is being done to protect workers rights.
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Jul 17, 2014 17:42
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Talmonis posted:You're a citizen, you cannot lose your rights unless you're a criminal (who should also be able to vote). You can't expect a nation to accept a mass influx of new people who are incapable (or unwilling) of paying into the system enough to not be a cost burden. No other nation does so. The system is designed to take care of only so many people. Open immigration without restriction would see other countries dumping millions of the most desperate, disabled and handicapped on our shores to avoid paying for their care themselves. Generally the people who choose to emigrate are the ones who are healthy enough to find work in America, or who have family or friends already in America to care for them. In both cases the cost to support the "desperate, disabled and handicapped" would be either irrelevant, or handled by their family and friends. In the case of a person becoming disabled after coming to America, it would be wrong to not provide basic assistance. Also like computer parts said, steady work is sometimes hard to find, even during an economic high point. Call me naive, but I feel the vast majority of people want to be self sufficient and hardworking. What you're saying is the same sort of argument that's used to deprive people of necessary social welfare and assistance.
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Jul 17, 2014 18:33
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