|
A few months ago I picked up a copy of Dashiell Hammet's Red Harvest after having finished watching HBO's True Detective, and for the last couple months have thrown myself into the world of Hardboiled Detective fiction, specifically Dashiell Hammett and Raymond Chandler. There wasn't a thread on here so I thought I'd take a shot at an OP and see if there was any interest! While I was aware of the stereotypes of the genre (namely trench coats, hats, dames, cynics, and hard drinking), I was pleasantly surprised to learn that Hardboiled was more than just the dime-store trashy novel that I was always told it was. Hammett and Chandler create characters that are far from Sherlock Holmes, but through their tenacity and capability of violence often come out on top. While both authors create richly detailed settings, bringing cities (which are characters unto themselves in Hardboiled) to life on paper (Hammett does an excellent job evoking the hills and winding streets of San Fran in The Maltese Falcon), switching from Hammett to Chandler was a huge change due to the "thick" manner of Chandler's descriptions. A character walks into a room, and for the next 1-2 pages every detail of that room is given a description, from the drapes (especially the drapes!), to the carpet, walls, windows, furniture, etc. The most famous detectives of the pair are: Hammett:  The Continental OP: A nameless, middle-aged, overweight, featureless man who you wouldn't remember having a shared words with an hour later. The Con OP is an agent for a Pinkerton-like Private Detective agency that operates in the US. More intelligent than most of the other detectives mentioned below, orchestrating complex plans to achieve his goals, he is relentless and often sleeps for only a few hours a night. Despite his physique he is a capable fighter, though certainly feels it later. The Con OP is very morally ambiguous, for example creating situations that result in criminals killing each other rather than capturing and taking them in alive. An exchange that I found particularly interesting regarding the Con OP that I think sums him up well comes from The Dain Curse and I've copied it here from Wiki: The Dain Curse posted:
This passage made me immediately think of Frank Miller's Sin City and the character Marv, who is a literal monster of a man, and who serves a similar purpose as a protector and anti-hero, dishing out his own justice in questionable ways. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------  Sam Spade: Easily one of the most famous of the Hardboiled genre, Spade appeared in The Maltese Falcon operating out of San Fransisco. Likes pork-chops. I didn't warm up to Spade very much, finding that he seemed to take a perverse delight in the distress of others and uncaring attitude. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Chandler:  Philip Marlowe: A very dry, cynical, and plodding detective, Marlowe avoids giving direct answers whenever he can, preferring smart alec or purposefully meaningless remarks, and truly seems to delight in his job. I'm currently reading The Big Sleep, Chandler's first novel, and find that Marlowe reminds me a lot of the infamous Jimmy McNulty from The Wire, particularly when Marlowe works himself into a position that will turn half of the police officers in the city from friends into enemies in the name of justice/the client/ his own ego/sense of right and wrong. Anyway, I hope some people on here are fans of the genre! Professor Shark fucked around with this message at 13:49 on Jul 23, 2014 |
#
¿
Jul 23, 2014 13:44
|
|
|
|
| # ¿ Apr 29, 2024 03:09 |
|
|
Coca Koala posted:How many people here have read The Thin Man, by Hammett? Years ago, I found an analysis of it which stuck with me just because it was so completely contrary to how I read the story: essentially, the analysis states that Nick Charles is an alcoholic because he hates his life and hates the unauthentic people he now has to deal with as a result of having married into high society; he drinks to deaden his detective senses and to help him trudge through another dreadful, boring day. I just finished it before starting/finishing The Big Sleep. I definitely got the sense that Nick was bored with his life, going from a natural detective and into the role of Trophy Husband and drinking almost constantly out of boredom. I also couldn't shake the sense that Nick and Nora were... very open in their relationship. While reading it I could have sworn that they had a threesome with the Wynant girl, since a chapter in the story ends with her coming into their room and asking if she could sleep with them, then the next chapter she's introduced as wearing one of Nick's shirts. Combine that with Nick and Nora's banter about him going off with another woman at a party and Nora's flirting/petting with the Wynant Mother's husband, I thought that they were swingers. What the Hell was the deal with the guy at one of their parties who asked if he could touch Nick's knee when Nick told him he used to bounce Dorothy on it when she was a child? That was just straight bizarre.
|
|
#
¿
Jul 27, 2014 19:54
|
|
|
I didn't know that, but thinking back (only saw TBL a couple times) the dialogue really seems to match up with Marlowe's dry wit. You can guess what comes next. He fixes the TV? Edit: Currently reading Farewell, My Lovely and I'm not sure how I feel about the dramatic change Chandler takes by having Marlowe interacting with himself. The first instance of it is cool, with Marlowe's subconscious seemingly being the real detective by organizing and analyzing the little bits of information leading up to Marlowe being attacked while Marlowe seems to be the gruff cynic along for the ride, but it has become a recurring theme that is wearing thin towards the end of the novella. Professor Shark fucked around with this message at 02:29 on Jul 29, 2014 |
|
#
¿
Jul 29, 2014 02:21
|
|
|
I thought that The Drowning Pool sounded familiar- I watched both Harper films a few months back! I'll check out MacDonald's books after I'm done with Chandler.
|
|
#
¿
Jul 30, 2014 10:56
|
|
|
I finished Farewell, My Lovely yesterday. While I enjoyed it, it still feels quite different from The Big Sleep, both with Marlowe's inner monologue being introduced, but also the surreality of the beach scene in the beginning when Marlowe is attacked as well as the docks and offshore gambling boats towards the end, where characters materialize and disappear into the fog. I also watched Chinatown, and while I felt like the story was hardboiled, I didn't feel that Jack Nicholson fit the character. I also couldn't get over the Roman Polonski 13-year-old-drug-rape thing, which has put me off watching any of his work until now. Professor Shark fucked around with this message at 15:12 on Jul 31, 2014 |
|
#
¿
Jul 31, 2014 15:06
|
|
|
I just finished The High Window a few minutes ago. I really enjoyed it. The writing is much more sparse than Farewell, My Lovely, and the focus on Marlowe's thoughts and inner monologue is absent. I liked the disarray of the mystery, but for some reason the cast of characters and locations felt smaller than the previous two Marlowe novels I've read. Marlowe as a character seems to have taken a dramatic shift in this novel as well, literally being compared to a gruffer, modern Galahad.
|
|
#
¿
Aug 4, 2014 19:34
|
|
|
I haven't had a huge amount of time to read lately, but I'm slowly getting through The Lady in the Lake. Much more graphic than the other Marlowe novels.
|
|
#
¿
Aug 11, 2014 23:53
|
|
|
My dad is a huge JDM fan and recommended the McGee books when I told him what I was reading. He has a bunch of the paperbacks downstairs, vintage covers and all. After I'm finished with Marlowe I think I'll pick them up.
|
|
#
¿
Aug 18, 2014 13:38
|
|
|
I just finished The Lady in the Lake, I haven't had a lot of time to read these past few weeks. It continued to be more violent than any of the other stories thus far, and the plot became quite convoluted by the end, but it was enjoyable. Not the best Marlowe.
|
|
#
¿
Sep 5, 2014 01:58
|
|
|
Working my way through The Little Sister now, though work has really interfered with my reading. Luckily I have a cold that has laid me out on my rear end, so I hope to finish it off today!
|
|
#
¿
Sep 16, 2014 15:30
|
|
|
Roark posted:If you thought The Lady in the Lake was dark and violent, The Little Sister gets much darker. It's great, though, and it's probably my favorite Marlowe that isn't The Big Sleep/The Long Goodbye. Yeah, the ice-pick has been a very tidy yet creepy murder weapon up to the point I'm at. People "sleeping" peacefully with a little red dot on the back of their necks.
|
|
#
¿
Sep 16, 2014 17:08
|
|
|
I finished The Little Sister last night. It felt very different than other Marlowe stories (I realize I've said that for most of the Marlowe novels, Chandler changed quite a bit as an author over the course of the series), and I really felt the same sense of confusion and despair as Marlowe at the end when it turned out that Orfamay Quest, the titular "little sister", was fighting over "table scraps". Their last encounter is particularly emotional and Marlowe's contempt is beautifully described when he tells her that he wishes he could be in the room when Quest and her mother go to divide the measly $1000 they extorted at the price of their relationship with sister/ daughter Mavis Weld (Quest) and brother/ son Orrin Quest's life. According to the introduction to my collection TLS was written at the point where Chandler was becoming disillusioned with Hollywood, which is extremely apparent upon reflection. Nothing prepared me for the second ending (though upon reflection Roark did warn me) where Marlowe watches the doctor go up to Gonzales' apartment, knowing that he probably intends to kill her, and does nothing.
|
|
#
¿
Sep 28, 2014 13:08
|
|
|
Danger posted:Anyone have an opinion on Benjamin Black's Phillip Marlowe revival? Outside of publisher praise and endorsement from the Chandler estate, the reviews don't seem to be as glowing. Stephen King seems to like it, for whatever that's worth: Stephen King posted:“Somewhere Raymond Chandler is smiling, because this is a beautifully rendered hardboiled novel that echoes Chandler's melancholy at perfect pitch. The story is great, but what amazed me is how John Banville caught the cumulative effect Chandler's prose had on readers. It's hard to quantify, but it's also what separated the Marlowe novels from the general run of noir (which included some drat fine novelists, like David Goodis and Jim Thompson). The sadness runs deep. I loved this book. It was like having an old friend, one you assumed was dead, walk into the room. Kind of like Terry Lennox, hiding behind those drapes."
|
|
#
¿
Sep 30, 2014 20:22
|
|
|
Reading The Long Goodbye right now I don't know how I feel about the "Marlowe gets friends!" stuff so far. The Lennox stuff was fine, but Raymond Chandler's insert of Wade has come across as feeling very... self-insert-y in the few chapters I've read since he was rescued.
|
|
#
¿
Oct 8, 2014 10:29
|
|
|
I just finished The Long Goodbye. I can certainly understand why it's the most famous of Chandler's Marlow stories, as Marlowe really reflected well off of Lennox and Wade in the end, and Lennox returning at the end to a cold and unwelcoming Marlowe who now sees his friend in an entirely different light was a great finish. The scene with Linda Loring was about as tragic a romantic encounter as one could expect from Marlowe, but delivered some pretty hilarious (albeit dark) lines, :bigtran: We could get married...  It wouldn't last 6 months...and the debate between Ohls and Marlowe on crime ended juts before it got annoying. Very happy to have read it, debating not reading Playback and leaving this one as my last Marlowe... opinions? Edit: Happy Page 2! 
Professor Shark fucked around with this message at 18:52 on Oct 15, 2014 |
|
#
¿
Oct 15, 2014 18:43
|
|
|
Well I just finished Playback. I was pleased that Chandler included a reference to beach sage, which is featured in most of his novels somewhere, most predominantly in Farewell, My Lovely, only the sage in Esmeralda is "sweeter" than the bitter kind in L.A. despite being the exact same plant, and the eucalyptus trees also grow stronger than the gnarled, thin, sickly ones in L.A., which I thought was a nice touch as an insight into Chandler's perception of the city. All in all a simple novel, but I appreciate it and am glad that I read it. Poodle Springs... we'll see. I have the short stories to occupy me for now, and there are a lot of them.
|
|
#
¿
Oct 19, 2014 19:34
|
|
|
Yeah, I read that before I started so I went with the novels first. I have the short story collection and out of curiosity I flipped to the end of The Lady in the Lake, short story version, and realized that it had a different ending. I figure by next summer I'll have forgotten most of the details of the books, so I'll be good to go from there!
|
|
#
¿
Oct 31, 2014 19:21
|
|
|
I thought I asked it in this thread but I guess I didn't... what was going on in the *real* dream at the end of The Glass Key? Edit: I think I have the gist of it: if we don't take this opportunity to get out now we never will and this town will kill us both, but I feel that there must be more than that going on... Professor Shark fucked around with this message at 16:36 on Nov 27, 2014 |
|
#
¿
Nov 27, 2014 16:33
|
|
|
I'm reading Chandler's short stories, but have been considering writing a Sherlock Holmes pastiche, as many of the ones I listen to in audiobook form are goddamn terrible.
|
|
#
¿
Jul 23, 2015 16:15
|
|
|
I just finished the last Marlowe story I had to read, The Pencil, and I still have no idea what happened in it at the end, except for "it wasn't good".
|
|
#
¿
Aug 6, 2015 13:27
|
|
|
Over my probation I watched a few hard-boiled detective movies/ TV, Homicide and Bored to Death. I found Bored to Death to be a great spin on the genre. My favorite is a series I started yesterday: Ray Donovan. It's basically modern Philip Marlowe meets Tony Soprano. Edit: I also read Mr Mercedes by Stephen King, which was much more disappointing than I'd imagined it would be. Would NOT recommend. Professor Shark fucked around with this message at 01:15 on Aug 18, 2015 |
|
#
¿
Aug 18, 2015 01:00
|
|
|
I just finished The Black Eyed Blonde and wow... that was not a good book. It starts off decently enough, though is a bit heavy in call-backs/ call-forwards (Marlowe reflects at least every second chapter about Linda Loring pining for him in Paris), but it really starts to fall apart at about the half-way point. Would Not Recommend.
|
|
#
¿
Sep 9, 2015 00:32
|
|
|
I was bored and decided to read more Chandler. "Pearls are a Nuisance" was bizarre and unexpected, "Madarin's Jade" was meh because John Dalmas is really creepy and assholish, and it made me want to read "Farewell, My Lovely", which I'm rereading now!
|
|
#
¿
Oct 13, 2015 10:15
|
|
|
SimonChris posted:So, I just finished Red Harvest and holy poo poo, The Continental Op kills like a hundred people in this book. I knew he was supposed to be somewhat less noble than Marlowe, but I was unprepared for just how amoral he is. Does he commit mass murder in all his books? I just started The Dain Curse, so I guess I'll find out... I have to say, it's interesting to read about a PI who is basically a manipulative sociopath, rather than the usual noble knight hiding behind a gruff exterior. Yeah, the Continental Op is amazing and wayyy different than Marlowe, although Marlowe does echo the Op in some respects in The Little Sister when he watches but does not intervene in a murder. As I put in the op, the Continental Op is "a good monster", I think it's pretty interesting how conflicted his actions make the reader feel because of the blood drenched, violent plans he puts into motion. He comes across as some sort of demi-demon in Red Harvest, but everything else I've read with him in it has been more traditional hard-boiled detective.
|
|
#
¿
Nov 15, 2015 15:51
|
|
|
I started reading MacDonald's Travis McGee stuff... it certainly feels like something that heavily influenced Stephen King, but I'm not feeling as much love for McGee as I did Marlowe 
|
|
#
¿
Feb 23, 2016 21:27
|
|
|
savinhill posted:I've been reading The Far Empty by J Todd Scott and it's such a great crime novel. It's set in a small Texas border town, is told from a large number of POVs, and despite having so many different viewpoints, it still manages to build a ton of character for each of them. It's very well written, with a heavy Cormac McCarthy influence but with a more straightforward narrative that leaves you jonesing to find out more and more about the central mysteries, characters, and town itself. Based on the roughly half I've read so far I'd highly recommend it to anyone looking for a new gritty crime novel to read. Roark posted:I recently finished Qiu Xiaolong's Death of A Red Heroine. He's a Chinese dissident academic living in America, and the book is the first in a series of noirish detective novels set in 1990s Shanghai. Both of these sound really good
|
|
#
¿
Aug 26, 2016 18:09
|
|
|
Huh, I hadn't realized LAC was based in a book. I really like that movie!
|
|
#
¿
Oct 12, 2016 10:03
|
|
|
|
| # ¿ Apr 29, 2024 03:09 |
|
|
I'm watching Too Late on Netflix right now and really enjoying it, not just because of the full frontal nudity
|
|
#
¿
Dec 14, 2016 00:13
|
|