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Tezzor posted:Simply define everything you think as defense and everything they think as aggression. Interesting system of ethics, for a clown to have, at the circus. Let's be fair here Tezzor. Clowns generally have a better grasp of economic theory and long-term sustainability of investments, not to mention a greater understanding of resource management. At least the ones I've known have.
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Aug 10, 2014 19:13
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icantfindaname posted:It really is loving depressing to know that jrodefeld's argument is literally "I'm not racist because blacks (and gays, liberals, and other undesirables) really are mentally inferior to the white man" It is indeed depressing, but you must understand, this is one of the appeals of libertarianism mixed with anarchic principles. You're allowed to not only think whatever you want but you can say whatever you want too, no matter how much of it is complete and utter bullshit based on logical fallacies, pseudoscience that was discredited before the turn of the previous century, or blatant hate and/or stupidity. You're a free soul! You're free to do anything! As long as it's not based upon a centralized governmental authority.
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Aug 11, 2014 01:07
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jrodefeld posted:Of course it had an effect! But the "law" is part of the State, which I am opposed to as a libertarian. But, according to libertarian property rights theory, people still have the right to exclude anyone they like from their private property. All the State laws that held up this segregation, Jim Crow laws, public school segregation and things of that nature should have been repealed and were repealed. okay Jrod I want you to understand something. No bullshit no insults or anything like that. Yes, the State held up those laws at the time because of societal perceptions/demands. That is one of the purposes of the State. You will always have a State of some sort or another. It is impossible for any kind of society to exist without some kind of overarching governing influence. That changes the lower you go but there is always a central authority of some sort, no group has ever successfully managed without one. "The Government" as you seem to perceive it exists to try and uphold some kind of orderly society while at the same time placating that society's needs. At one point this was blatant and open racism, these days it is not. If anyone tried to implement the sort of governing body you were suggesting there would not be any nations of any form. All humanity would break down into a series of city-states built up around the majority population values of each city-state, governed by what I presume based on your statements thus far would be the wealthiest person or maybe persons. In effect, you would break all society down into a series of Barter Towns. Or are you proposing even greater breakdowns into more tribal/clannish structures? Because that would be the best you could hope for under the libertarian proposals that are actually enforced in any fashion.
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Aug 11, 2014 03:37
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jrodefeld posted:words Even if we ignore the racism stuff man, you've also got to deal with the mountain of us that have been picking apart the non-racial socioeconomic stuff like hungry chimps having a delicious termite lunch. There are so many nits for us to pick in this that were they actual food we would become tremendously fat.
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Aug 11, 2014 04:02
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QuarkJets posted:You haven't provided any evidence showing otherwise you loving shitbag He has. That's the problem. The evidence he's shown is completely and utterly drenched in libertarian doublespeak, backpedaling, and self-assurances however. He does not appear to have any readily available means of translating out of this half-assed not-English into English though, which is why a number of us are becoming increasingly agitated at him. He either cannot or will not stop talking from a single super-heavily biased perspective where everything is always right and the possibility of being wrong is so non-existent that to invite the notion is a blasphemy against the Moneygod. But within the confines of that self-serving tongue he has justified and explained everything perfectly. Whether or not this makes everything several orders of magnitude worse is up for debate but for my part, I think it does.
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Aug 11, 2014 04:46
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Socrates16 posted:I've always been surprised by most Goons' vehement hatred for libertarianism, especially considering that the SA forums are a great representation of what people can do when they're allowed to freely organize themselves. I don't know how many of you are gamers, but if you are, think about how idiotic politicians are when it comes to videogames. They're totally uneducated about the issue, yet they make policy based off the emotions of voters who are also ignorant. What you need to realize is that they're doing the same thing for every single issue. They're uneducated and belligerent, and playing off of your emotions. We still have mods that keep us from straying too far out of line with bans, probations, and what have you. We are not some sort of purely free society that can do whatever. If you want that by all means, head for /b/ circa about 5-10 years back. See what a clusterfuck THAT was.
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Aug 11, 2014 05:12
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Socrates16 posted:SA forums are an example of what free people in a free society are capable of doing without force. Not a blueprint for how a society should be run. Yes, but we're still all happily obeying societal laws and obligations- we pay taxes, we pay our bills, etc. We occasionally rail against unfair practices and individuals who are massive dicks but we aren't seriously proposing to destroy the establishment entirely so we can set up some kind of insane utopia based on complete nonsense and pixie dust.
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Aug 11, 2014 05:16
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Socrates16 posted:This is a non-sequitur to my statement. No based on your prior statements it sounded like you were going to go on and try to take the slow route to trying to convince us that maybe Jrod has a point besides the one on top of his head, so I made my statement based on that notion.
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Aug 11, 2014 05:25
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D_I posted:I love how the solution in every Libertarian fanfic scenario is to "start your own competing ______". What's even funnier is that it's usually some sort of major industrial/commercial venture. The kind of thing that demands you prostrate yourself before wealthy investors and be a good little whore to repay them for the next 40 years to see your dream take off, because of how expensive such ventures are. Or they just somehow magically manage to make it work despite lacking investors and requiring enough money that could just as easily be used to buy a small African nation.
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Aug 11, 2014 11:18
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QuarkJets posted:It turns out that people are lovely. People scam and cheat each other even if they gain nothing from doing so. This I might actually argue. I don't think it necessarily true that people as a generalization are lovely, it's just that the ones who ARE lovely are the ones that will encourage others to be lovely and will invariably be the ones who rise to the top of the shitlists by being bastards. They have strong incentives to do that, because it validates their existence. ..So, libertarians basically. But y'know I'm one of those religious hippie types who believes most people are inherently halfway decent, so take that with a grain of salt big enough to bludgeon a man to death with.
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Aug 11, 2014 11:35
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CrazyTolradi posted:
I am again inclined to disagree that it demonstrates the "core human nature" very well- one must remember that in EVE you have no obligations outside of those to yourself. Like, tangibly so. Nobody gets married, has kids, raises actual civilizations, commits permanent murder, poo poo like that. Cheating and stealing pretty much always benefits you personally in the game. You are incentivized to do so at all times because the worst repercussions are "you get banned, you go buy a new account." I might be quibbling I admit but I feel it necessary to point that out because otherwise I fear we would be encouraging the notion that people are just naturally selfish and bad, which.. Well outside of my personal beliefs, it encourages the sort of belief that those who worship at the altar of Ayn Rand espouse like so many broken records and noisy parrots.
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Aug 11, 2014 13:40
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DoctorWhat posted:I dunno, the other guy actually has an EARLIER regdate than Jrod, so that would take a LOT of planning going back two years. It's probably not a sockpuppet so much as a happy parrot who agrees wholeheartedly. "I love selfishness and money, awwwrk" *whistle*
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Aug 11, 2014 15:48
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Christmas Present posted:
Now now, we're better than that. .... Okay no we're really not, but we should try to be better than that. If only because jrod is someone worthy of our pity, because he does not realize the full ramifications of what it means to live in the world he desires. Maybe someone should take him to a game of Shadowrun or something, that might help.
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Aug 11, 2014 16:16
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I personally identify as a semi-socialist imperialist, but I also acknowledge that my desires for conquest, empire, and absolute authority are pretty much just ridiculous pipe dreams built up under the assumption that I could not possibly be worse than any of the fuckwads currently in office who insist on loving everything up in the name of personal careers. I don't fully trust democracy because it relies on people, and people will make dumb decisions thinking it's for the best for themselves and everyone else- see the Jimmy Carter administration for more information- even if you can prove beyond all shadow of a doubt they are objectively wrong. But the thing is I acknowledge that I very easily could gently caress everything up infinitely worse than they ever have, even with the best of intentions, even wanting everyone to live a happy and comfortable life. My decisions, regardless of how noble, could easily gently caress everything up forever because I am a human and flawed, and the people I would rely upon are also human and flawed; and that is why I say pity for jrod- even if it's patronizing, even if it's somewhat insulting. Like Present said, life experience really helps broaden your worldview a lot, but you have to actually let the information sink in and not just shut it out all with your fingers in your ears screaming NO NO NO NO NO IT'S NOT WHAT I WANT NOT HOW I WANT IT MUST BE MY WAY. It's always nice to have a fantasy world where everything goes right and nothing goes wrong but at some point one must accept "reality is a thing that exists."
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Aug 11, 2014 17:26
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Popular Thug Drink posted:How do libertarians deal with the fact that civilization and government are synonymous and don't really exist without the other? Like I can see how this might work if we were a group of hunter gatherers with little tangible property and abundant resources but there really doesn't seem to be a concrete way to deal with basic problems in libertopia. Even in a tribe of hunter-gatherers someone needs to be an authority figure that is absolute or near-absolute in times of crises, such as drought, famine, floods, plague, etc. That authority figure might be a chieftain, or a tribal council, or a wise old matriarch, or maybe it's the village witch doctor. SOMEONE is the authority that EVERYONE listens to when the poo poo hits the fan. Someone MUST be, otherwise all disparate families break off into separate sub-tribal units that have even less chance of survival. And then in THOSE units you STILL have an authority figure, the eldest parent or child who is most fit for leadership depending on the family's values and immediate needs. There can never not be an authority that would be governing a unit, otherwise fuckall gets done.
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Aug 11, 2014 20:29
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I'd kill for an NHS-type system here in the US. Between my health problems, my mother's health problems, my father's, my grandmother's, my stepfather's, my basically every loving person in my family has at least one serious medical problem and we can barely afford to take care of them.. God our lives would be so much easier were it not for those colossal medical bills and our miserable poverty. Which is of course our own drat fault since nobody will hire me because I'm too inexperienced to get a job to get experience to get work and oh gently caress it circles ranting stopping now before rage tangent.
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Aug 11, 2014 20:33
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Hodgepodge posted:Under a broad interpretation of socialism, even the DPRK's weird Juche philosophy is socialist, both explicitly and by heritage. Kind of a loaded statement, given how vague it is. Depending on how "broad" we want to go at some point we start burning Churches to the ground for being filthy communist sympathizers and spitting on effigies of Jesus because he was a dirty hippie who said give all your wealth to the poor.
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Aug 11, 2014 21:04
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Hodgepodge posted:Of course, Ayn Rand's thoughts on Christianity never seem to come up in the same manner. I think that's because her thoughts on Christianity basically amount to "make them suffer and die because they're filthy and worthless altruists who should all suck off a shotgun." Or thereabouts.
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Aug 11, 2014 21:15
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Tezzor posted:Interestingly, if we're going by the "escalation" theory and the "it's still force even if it's nonviolent and passive" theory, if you dump me against my will in someone else's land, they can't even ask me to leave, as that would be the initiation of force. As much as I enjoy Tezzor's posts, I'm hard-pressed to believe I'm actually seeing anything remotely resembling some kind of serious discussion about this sort of scenario because it is so bugfuck insane that it causes my head to actually start hurting. The very notion of such events taking place and people actually having to deal with them is crazier than a shithouse rat.
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Aug 11, 2014 22:57
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jrodefeld posted:Doesn't this make sense? Only in the world of Make Believe, Jrod, that's what we're trying to get across to you. The entirety of your philosophy cannot stand upon its own two feet when subjected to "actual reality where facts are true". It can only exist as a hypothetical on paper where everything remains perfect.
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Aug 11, 2014 23:48
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Little Blackfly posted:Even hunter gatherer societies had enforced social customs and laws. The atomized nature of libertarian society isn't really something that I think people could conceive of as beneficial outside of the privilege bubble of the modern world. It's basically the sort of thing that can only work if you have an army of expendable yet completely non-human slave laborers/warriors who can do all of your work for you while you sit on the porch sipping mint juleps (or other forms of alcohol). The entire notion relies upon the idea that there is an inexhaustible supply of labor that is always willing and happy to do whatever you require or desire of it. Sadly, Japan has yet to develop cheap easily replaced robot workers/soldiers/sex dolls as of yet. Maybe someday.
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Aug 12, 2014 01:20
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Somfin posted:If you were literate, you'd read what jrodfeld posts and realise he's a moron. We continue debate with him as if he was reading what we were writing. Therefore, we must not be able to read. It does appear at this point we're pretty much just bantering with ourselves without the slightest care as to jrod's opinion, doesn't it? ...Does this mean we let the thread peter out, or gas it, or..? I'm not sure of the protocol here.
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Aug 12, 2014 06:14
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paragon1 posted:I propose we fix this through Dispute Inducement Organizations, who will seek to help people homicidally hate each other for a nominal fee. They'll do things like drug the water supply and play bad music really loudly. You mean "rebellious teenagers"? poo poo, nobody told me I could get PAID to be that when I was entering that age! gently caress man I could have been a contender. I was such an obnoxious little gently caress, so cocksure of himself at all times, so belligerent (granted part of this was because I got the luxury of being a guinea pig for various at-the-time experimental mood drugs like Prozac and Ritalin, but I can only blame those so much), I could have made MONEY being that! It sounds so promising on paper, doesn't it? "Be a pain in the rear end, get paid. Be something someone wants and/or needs at this point in time and you can be paid well for it!" That, I think, is the biggest draw of libertarianism in these days. The endless promise (as it is written in papers and forum posts, and spewed out by hardcore libertarian speakers) that no matter what you can not only make money and live comfortably, you can do so in such a fashion that allows you to push your ideology on others. Hell of a draw in a painful recession economy. Small wonder that we see their numbers, and the numbers of groups like the SovCits, slowly growing as people become more desperate and grasping at straws for some kind of hope. The promise of everything but without the pesky demands of religious organization or the droning of men standing behind podiums.
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Aug 12, 2014 07:51
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Bifauxnen posted:It's literally about a Road Warrior economy, so it sounded up your alley. Actually I kinda wanna hear what you've got to say on this in all seriousness, I think I'm one of the few people who actually liked the economic challenges and potential principles that were presented in the Mad Max series. Tell us my dear goon- who rules Barter Town?
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Aug 12, 2014 07:53
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Who What Now posted:Properly prepared and seasoned and paired with a fine wine I might be. It's all empty calories and fat, plus you don't know where they've been. You'd get sick.
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Aug 12, 2014 20:08
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QuarkJets posted:As a freeman on the land and a voluntary participant in the free market of ideas, the illegal FUHRER PRESIDENT FOR LIFE LOWTAX REGIME can't forbid you from seeking out libertarians and telling them how loving stupid they are Heil Lowtax! But yes that is about the size of it. Humorously enough being a libertarian allows you to go and do just that by their own rules. Most people try to say you can't do that in their philosophies.
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Aug 13, 2014 00:48
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VitalSigns posted:
No no yours was good too, and paints a very nice picture of how things would actually work in such an environment. It's rather terrifying to behold, given how many people would "die horribly before anything at all was accomplished"- because nobody cares about the disease, only monetary restitution for it. Entire cities worth of people could be wiped out from such epidemics as actual treatment of the disease(s) that are slaughtering people by the family-load are takes a back seat to "gotta get mah money." And the most frightening thing of all perhaps, is that under this model nobody cares and indeed considers it normalcy.
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Aug 13, 2014 01:00
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RuanGacho posted:I can't be the only one amused by the concept that Libertarians ideal world includes battling DRO Corporation Pokemon. It would be amusing as hell to me were it not for all the endless horrors and nightmares attached to it, the complete psychosis that all humanity would be forced to live in until it finally succeeded in destroying itself off either through open neglect or greed or just plain old bloodshed. I can actually envision the world they want to construct and let me tell you, it's a frightening and hollow existence that they propose.
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Aug 13, 2014 08:36
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Serrath posted:It really concerns me that this whole system is posited on the idea of rational actors going about their business when the capacity to act in a rational (and competitive) way can be taken from you in the blink of an eye... Owing to the fact that any one of us could have calamity occur, wouldn't a strong social safety net be some comfort to you so that you're assured that, even if the worst were to happen, you wouldn't just starve on the street? The simple and realistic answer to this is "well sucks to be you, stop getting in my way you waste of flesh, just die quickly." We've seen libertarian sorts actually say this before (I'm not trawling through Reddit and Freep just to prove it you can do that yourself) but, we're talking fantasy worlds so let's talk fantasies. In the libertarian utopia fantasy world such people are taken care of by the ubiquitous "free market." Presumably natural generosity handled by rational actors (maybe the families of those afflicted or the rare actually altruistic people who in this somehow have tons of money to do it despite libertarian philosophy frequently relying heavily on selfish objectivism) or possibly companies who rationally enact safety policies for their employees (presuming that for some reason without regulations or requirements to do so they would actually take care of their employees and not simply abandon them when they stop being profitable dispensable human resources). And that's pretty much the best answer that I or indeed anyone I think could give you, at least in such simplistic terms. The answer from libertarians will always be "the free market will do everything and save everyone no matter what." Regardless of how blatantly unrealistic this is.
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Aug 13, 2014 11:47
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Obdicut posted:Yeah, how hard is it to type out posts that are basically "You are wrong. Here is a link to Von Mises."? Pretty hard when you're trying to pull a magical rabbit out of your digital rear end-fingers in an effort to prove to the unwashed masses that your beliefs are superior to theirs.
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Aug 13, 2014 13:50
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Grand Theft Autobot posted:Currently engaging in some market competition with DRO Israel. All of those dead children probably deserved it because they didn't choose to be covered by the more powerful DRO. No no, they deserved it because they're an inferior race, keep up with it, man. ...I'd say we should probably stop going back to the racial thing given that we are about at this point beating a dead horse but then http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/08/12/texas-sovereign-citizen-sets-dumpster-fire-reports-self-missing-to-set-up-police-ambush/ this just happened recently.
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Aug 13, 2014 14:59
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And if anyone actually believes that, then I've got this lovely bridge to Tarabitha up for sale going cheap..
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Aug 13, 2014 21:46
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CrazyTolradi posted:One thing I don't get about most Libertarians I know is that they're usually Economy grads and seem to think that economic growth is the entire point of living. It's like gaining wealth is both a means AND an end. Yes, this is pretty much it, you are correct, so you get a biscuit. The accumulation of wealth is all that matters in libertopia- as much as you can at all times by any means you can think of, no rules or regulations or things to stop you from the pursuit of wealth and using that wealth to make more wealth. This is the entire focus, crux, and fulcrum of existence for them.
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Aug 14, 2014 03:24
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Quantum Mechanic posted:Rarely, honestly. They tend more to have maybe done some basic economics or finance and a lot of "self-education" on mises.org. Given what I've seen of them when they start yapping off? It swiftly becomes apparent that only a very small number have actually taken and completed any sort of actual advanced education in any sub-field of economics. Only the ones you see on the teevee are likely to have actually gotten any- and only then so they can find loopholes and rules for exploitation and abuse. The lion's share of these "people" (why yes I do use that term loosely) couldn't account their way out of a wet paper bag if you spotted them an entire HR department.
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Aug 14, 2014 03:32
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Those with money and subsequent influence over the political structure have always believed that they, and they alone, are more entitled than anyone and everyone else to have things exactly their way, as they want it, when they want it, without argument or complaint. After all if they did not deserve this, then they would not be the ones with the money and influence, would they?
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Aug 15, 2014 05:17
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