ImpAtom posted:If that was Morrison's point then he hosed up badly, both in the writing of the issue and in his choice of subject matter. Picking Captain Marvel for "too childlike deal with serious issues" displays such a fundimental misunderstanding of that era of Captain Marvel that I'd expect it from Geoff Johns. I think people are taking that one line from an interview out of proportion, especially since it isn't contained in the work itself. Look at how they deal with Georgia's self-loathing. Freddie simply tricks her into saying "Sivana" and going back to the body she hates and Mary gets all huffy about inner beauty. These are pretty cruel things to do to someone suffering from body-image issues, as the Uzumeri annotations noted, but those are exactly the sort of thing kids would do. Thunderworld can only deal with darkness by sublimating it, like Binder's original comics did. But at the same time, Billy (and presumably Freddie, Mary, Tawky Tawny, etc.) can read Ultra Comics without getting possessed or haunted. This innocence allows them to defeat the Gentry invasion and go off to help other worlds. Morrison isn't saying that "childlike" is equivalent to "bad" here. I mean, his favorite Superman story is "Superman's NEW Power", which is the apex of what Binder did with Captain Marvel and then with Superman (and so the rest of DC in conjunction with people like Weisinger, Kanigher, Haney, etc.)- rendering adult concepts child-friendly by sublimating them. (There's also something to be said about how Thaddeus and Magnificus transform with the power of Shazam, especially in relation to how Georgia transforms, but that's another thing entirely.) Arguably, it's not just Thunderworld, but the majority of realities, that Morrison is using here for his point. After all, all the other Sivanas are appalled by torturer-rapist Sivana and don't really know how to deal with him. Similarly, Doktor Sivana doesn't show up on the screens or in the guidebook. The Sivanas we see are from relatively lighthearted worlds, like luchador-Sivana or Sivana-26 (Snakevana? Thivana?).
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Mar 26, 2015 15:32
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I have a question. When Ultra starts his adventure "out of the box" - he flies around Nu-City and sees a billboard of what looks like a hero long gone with Kryptonian writing on it. Is he on another Earth (that is probably one of the mystery Earths in the guidebook) or is he in his "dreaming tank"?
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Mar 26, 2015 15:37
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DudeDeuce posted:I have a question. When Ultra starts his adventure "out of the box" - he flies around Nu-City and sees a billboard of what looks like a hero long gone with Kryptonian writing on it. Is he on another Earth (that is probably one of the mystery Earths in the guidebook) or is he in his "dreaming tank"? It's real. Granted, that doesn't mean it wasn't created by Earth-Prime as a place solely for Ultra Comics to lure in Intellectron.
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Mar 26, 2015 15:45
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Effectronica posted:Look at how they deal with Georgia's self-loathing. Freddie simply tricks her into saying "Sivana" and going back to the body she hates and Mary gets all huffy about inner beauty. These are pretty cruel things to do to someone suffering from body-image issues, as the Uzumeri annotations noted, but those are exactly the sort of thing kids would do. Morrison does that sort of thing with characters of all ages. He is not a flawless superbeing who never has any weird biases in his writing. I think there needs to be more than an out-of-book interview and "someone was cruel to someone with body issues" for me to buy it, especially as many people both in and outside of comics don't even recognize body issues as a thing beyond light comedy, Morrison included.
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Mar 26, 2015 16:16
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The robo chibis being murdered by the Sivanas seemed like it had a "too childlike to deal with adult threats" thing going on.
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Mar 26, 2015 16:23
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When I ask "What does it all mean?" or "What's he trying to say?" I don't mean in the plot point sense. I understood the issues just fine. Y'all make some salient points and good analysis, and I'm very interested in reading more of it. My problem is, what's the bigger point other than "Don't stop reading comics because they are good"? A lot of them aren't. Most comics are crap. A lot of the writers and artists working today are terrible. Same with in the past. Part of good criticism is taking the ones that are excellent, that are worth reading, and pointing them out, championing the ones that have been overlooked and tearing down the ones that are overrated. It's much more apathetic to simply consume and consume than it is to engage and demand better. What's he trying to do other than play "last word" with someone who stopped responding 30 years ago? Miracleman is excellent, and holds up quite well today. It doesn't mean you can't write Shazam! The Monster Society of Evil and still have it be just as great. The fiction doesn't threaten me at all. It never has, despite all of Morrison's attempts to show that our world, Qwewq, is attempting to destroy the fictional one whenever it turns into Neh-Buh-Loh, and needs an injection of superheros to keep it from turning evil. Tlön, Uqbar, Orbis Tertius is one of the best short stories ever written, but it's from the 1940s. There's nothing inherently wrong with trying to do this as a comic story (hell, Ales Kot is doing it in Secret Avengers right now, too), but if you're going to bring up another story, you need to make my remembering that story worth it. By the very nature of doing multiple styles of comic, you end up commenting on those styles and eras. Why choose that particular era or mode if you don't have something to say about them, or aren't using them as a symbolic stand in for what you're actually talking about? (i.e. Gilbert and Sullivan's The Mikado has almost nothing to say about Japan, and everything about Victorian England, it's target audience) The Alan Moore comparisons end up being inevitable. This feels a lot like the America's Best Comics line, with a little Supreme tossed in on top, only rather than doing actual arcs and stories, he's tossing out single issues and hoping you'll imagine the rest of the issues for him. I can imagine all the comics I'd like to read without paying Morrison for the privilege. Moore started doing his turn on the "Comics shouldn't all be dark and gritty" thing 20 years ago. Where's the response to that? All this emphasis on how intrinsically important superheroes are makes me feel like I'm reading Geoff Johns or J. Michael Straczynski. A better argument for the necessity and viability of comics would be actual series of these comics. The best argument against that particular Batgirl cover was the comics themselves. Toph Bei Fong fucked around with this message at 16:29 on Mar 26, 2015 |
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Mar 26, 2015 16:26
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WickedHate posted:The robo chibis being murdered by the Sivanas seemed like it had a "too childlike to deal with adult threats" thing going on. The robot children thing is very obviously shades of that and it's understandable why he went that direction for them. The Fawcett thing is where I disagree, either that it wasn't Morrison's intention or if it was that Morrison is displaying a Johnsian level of misunderstanding of the era. I trust Morrison's analysis enough to believe he wouldn't read Fawcett comics and come away from it with that. There is a Fawcett-era comic about Captain Marvel dealing with a nuclear war. It shows tha the is terrified and powerless and can only watch as it happens and people around him begin to die of radiation poisoning despite his best efforts to save them. It does not talk down to children or deny the grim reality of the situation, nor does it say a superhero could have solved everything. The ending (it is a television special where Marvel is stressing that nobody wants this sort of horror to a family watching) avoids the darkest possible outcome but 'unable to deal with the darkness' is a stretch. Don't get me wrong. Captain Marvel comics are unarguably kid-friendly and unarguably of the era in a lot of ways, but "too childlike to deal with the dark" is wrong, wrong, wrong. THunderworld seemed to argue the opposite. They are able to deal with the dark because they don't wallow in it. Darkness can exist and it can be part of the story but it does not have to overtake it. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 16:35 on Mar 26, 2015 |
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Mar 26, 2015 16:26
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ImpAtom posted:Morrison does that sort of thing with characters of all ages. He is not a flawless superbeing who never has any weird biases in his writing. I think there needs to be more than an out-of-book interview and "someone was cruel to someone with body issues" for me to buy it, especially as many people both in and outside of comics don't even recognize body issues as a thing beyond light comedy, Morrison included. ImpAtom posted:The robot children thing is very obviously shades of that and it's understandable why he went that direction for them. The Fawcett thing is where I disagree, either that it wasn't Morrison's intention or if it was that Morrison is displaying a Johnsian level of misunderstanding of the era. I trust Morrison's analysis enough to believe he wouldn't read Fawcett comics and come away from it with that. I'm not saying that they can't deal with adult threats, which is obviously false from reading the comic, but they don't really get them, except when they're treated in a Binderian way and sublimated into some fantasy/sci-fi concept. Morrison is suggesting that this is a positive thing, because they're the only world that unequivocally triumphs over the Gentry. This plays into what he means when he says that he summoned up Metron once, too. And also with Ultra Comics. I also think that you're giving Morrison too little credit here. If you look at how Georgia is drawn compared to many of her other incarnations, there's something interesting going on with how she's drawn and how that relates to her transformed state. Toph Bei Fong posted:When I ask "What does it all mean?" or "What's he trying to say?" I don't mean in the plot point sense. I understood the issues just fine. Y'all make some salient points and good analysis, and I'm very interested in reading more of it. The final, bigger point will probably have to wait for Multiversity 2, but I think that one thing you're missing is that Nix Uotan is very heavily Morrison himself in Final Crisis, or at least people interpreted him that way. So what does it mean that Morrison becomes a servant of the Gentry, attempting to recycle Darkseid once again? Especially given that he's recycling both Final Crisis and Seven Soldiers? I think that the bigger points are Morrison's main obsession since Animal Man of not being cruel to fictional characters, of treating them with some dignity, and also that comics have become stagnant, and he shares a lot of the blame for doing this. We have a number of different worlds here. We have actually moving forward with time and letting the characters grow old and die and new ones emerge. We have doing cheerful, good-hearted adventure stories. We have putting characters in different genres and playing with those conventions. We have high-concept stories. We have genuinely adult stories which attempt to push their limits artistically. We have metafiction. And all of these are under attack by poisonous ideas we've gotten into our heads. But we can defeat them. Even the most poisonous one of them all.
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Mar 26, 2015 16:45
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ImpAtom posted:Don't get me wrong. Captain Marvel comics are unarguably kid-friendly and unarguably of the era in a lot of ways, but "too childlike to deal with the dark" is wrong, wrong, wrong. THunderworld seemed to argue the opposite. They are able to deal with the dark because they don't wallow in it. Darkness can exist and it can be part of the story but it does not have to overtake it. "Fairytales don’t tell children that dragons exist. Children already know that dragons exist. Fairytales tell children that dragons can be killed."
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Mar 26, 2015 16:53
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This Ultra story was like a much less scatalogical and random Filler Bunny issue, complete with the dreaming-tank. People here seem convinced that the members of the Gentry represent various aspects of comics that Morrison wants the medium to finally move beyond, but I don't think that's quite it. They're cast as comic book villains, and the defining feature of comic book villains is that they're fought off over and over but never fully defeated. Just like Batman will always fight the Joker but never finally defeat him, superhero comics will always struggle with these issues (extreme darkness vs. naive innocence, intellectualization vs. visceral enjoyment, nostalgic stagnation vs. alienating experimentation) without fully resolving them. That's why you get to the end of the reversed Watchmen-analogue and arrive right back at the same moment that set all of it in motion in the first place. The only way out of that is to stop reading. But that's okay, because struggle is necessary for life- see the very first page of the first issue. It ties back to Seaguy, where he can never be happy in a world without conflict. The Just kinda tackled the same idea, but IMO less effectively. Lord Krangdar fucked around with this message at 19:54 on Mar 26, 2015 |
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Mar 26, 2015 19:15
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I'll tell you one thing, the comic book is on my coffee table and Ultra will not stop pointing at me and staring. Kinda creepy.
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Mar 27, 2015 00:55
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That's only what he looks like from the outside though.
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Mar 27, 2015 04:17
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Lord Krangdar posted:This Ultra story was like a much less scatalogical and random Filler Bunny issue, complete with the dreaming-tank. Eh, I don't think that it's so easy (and it's also really cynical). After all, while we have Adam indicating that analysis is in conflict with wonder, Captain Marvel tells us that analysis and wonder are part of the same thing, and then in Ultra Comics we have Intellectron telling us that comics are meaningless and a waste of time. So I think that, in that case, what we're meant to understand is that science and magic, analysis and joy, are both products of the same thing- taking the world/comic book seriously. I feel that a lot of these "conflicts" are false dichotomies and that there's more of this to be uncovered. I doubt that Morrison is really trying to say, for example, that we can never move on from what Hannibal Lecter-Sivana represents, or that we can't let new characters, younger characters, become prominent because they wouldn't be able to do anything.
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Mar 27, 2015 04:54
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Lord Krangdar posted:This Ultra story was like a much less scatalogical and random Filler Bunny issue, complete with the dreaming-tank. There's truth to what you're saying here, but that scene where Ultra Comics fights a corrupted Superman who keeps parroting "THIS ENDS NOW" pretty much gives up on subtext and says "Hey don't a lot of people write the same old poo poo with Superman?"
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Mar 27, 2015 05:37
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At the risk of offending the thread, I thought Ultra Comics wasn't really very good. I kind of think if you're going to have a comic based around having ideas that will contaminate the mind and the world, it would be a good plan to put some ideas like that into it. "Engaging with a text is odd if you think about it" wasn't really good enough for me.
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Mar 27, 2015 16:07
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vegetables posted:At the risk of offending the thread, I thought Ultra Comics wasn't really very good. I kind of think if you're going to have a comic based around having ideas that will contaminate the mind and the world, it would be a good plan to put some ideas like that into it. "Engaging with a text is odd if you think about it" wasn't really good enough for me. Except that wasn't the "evil" idea. Per Morison's interview, the idea Intellectron represented and outright states at the end is that the comic is literally sapping your life, albeit a small part of it. The time, imagination, and effort that you use up reading the comic could have easily been spent on something more meaningful. The entertainment we consume in turn consumes us. Granted, it's fine if that doesn't save the comic for you. While I liked all of the meta-fictional elements and how they tied in to the overall themes of the series, as a single narrative the comic isn't quite as satisfying as the previous issues.
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Mar 27, 2015 16:28
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vegetables posted:At the risk of offending the thread, I thought Ultra Comics wasn't really very good. I kind of think if you're going to have a comic based around having ideas that will contaminate the mind and the world, it would be a good plan to put some ideas like that into it. "Engaging with a text is odd if you think about it" wasn't really good enough for me. Even though we have different opinions, I am not offended and still think you're a good person.
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Mar 27, 2015 17:40
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I'd also like to say that I really like the fact that the DC worlds used in the Infinite Crisis line up to the worlds in the Guide. At least someone's building off it. 
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Mar 27, 2015 17:46
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GM isn't really into infecting people with malignant ideas, anyway, just pointing out how they exist around us (as discussed earlier in the thread). If anything, he's more concerned with inoculating people against them, using simple injections of more hopeful ideas. It's been a running thing in a lot of his work: he is very fond of bombastic, evocative, and memorable phrases derived from the Silver Age comics he loved so much: "Reality dies at midnight!" and so on. Think back to how many of such quotes you remember. Look at how often the "you're stronger than you think you are" scene gets posted here; it's even a thread title now. Does it cheer you up and cause you to fixate less on lovely 'dark' comics with heroes getting limbs torn off and all? You have been vaccinated. Morrison has always been aware of the power of this sort of wording. And he knows that pop culture has malignant ideas (zombies, postapocalyptic whatsits) but also resonant and memorable weapons againt them: "Gamble a stamp. I'll show you how to be a real man." If it's a bit silly, so much the better. The best comics are always a bit silly on some level. The context of a lot of these scenes matter. That Flex Mentallo quote comes just as the "Wally Sage" has doomed reality by his wallowing in a convoluted comics history that both informs amd reflects his negative mental state. And when he's at his lowest and most angsty-adolescent, Flex comes along with the above quote. Against the turgid, rococo, distracting mess that is comics continuity, Flex's advice is as simple and direct as a punch to the face: "Sometimes a fellow just has to get out of the house and meet some girls." Grant's comics are one big superhero-fight between super-memes: against the dauntingly nebulous concept of despair, just a simple, punchy, hopeful phrase that will stick with you far longer than the dark.
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Mar 27, 2015 19:34
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" I'll do what I can to plug the hole in forever!" is one of my favorite comic lines. It's so absurdly wonderful it sounds like something a kid would say as he runs around his backyard fighting imaginary monsters. And it's awesome.
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Mar 27, 2015 19:45
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As long as we're throwing in great goofy Morrison quotes, I don't know if you can top "These 'no-nonsense' solutions of yours just don't hold water in a complex world of jet-powered apes and time travel."
thefncrow fucked around with this message at 20:23 on Mar 27, 2015 |
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Mar 27, 2015 20:20
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"And everyone's waiting for the hero to take the stage." Alfred talking to Dick in the first issue of Batman & Robin. And I miss my Superman Beyond 3D avatar. "I'm in a self assembling hyper story! And it's trying it's best to destroy me!" It's kind of amazing Grant never wrote Adam Warlock when he was with Marvel.
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Mar 27, 2015 20:52
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"You’ve been booby-trapped! Darkseid turned you into a doomsday weapon and aimed you directly at the 21st century!" One thing I love about Morrison and Hickman, is that when they have to absolutely nail a line, they always come through.
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Mar 27, 2015 20:55
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minimalist posted:GM isn't really into infecting people with malignant ideas, anyway, just pointing out how they exist around us (as discussed earlier in the thread). If anything, he's more concerned with inoculating people against them, using simple injections of more hopeful ideas. I just want to say I love everything about this post.
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Mar 27, 2015 20:55
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Not goofy or from a comic, but as long as we're doing Favourite Grant Morrison Quotechat: "In today’s world, in today’s media climate designed to foster the fear our leaders like us to feel because it makes us easier to push around. In a world where limp, wimpy men are forced to talk tough and act ‘badass’ even though we all know they’re making GBS threads it inside. In a world where the measure of our moral strength has come to lie in the extremity of the images we’re able to look at and stomach. In a world, I’m reliably told, that’s going to the dogs, the real mischief, the real punk rock rebellion, is a snarling, ‘gently caress you’ positivity and optimism. Violent optimism in the face of all evidence to the contrary is the Alpha form of outrage these days."
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Mar 27, 2015 21:32
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There we go, that's the money quote. WE DEMAND A HAPPY ENDING!
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Mar 27, 2015 21:43
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"I CAN SEE YOU!" Probably changed the way a lot of people look at comics. "What is it about sombreros? Some things are just naturally funny."
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Mar 28, 2015 00:34
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The story ended, but isn't the Gentry still sapping our lives away the more we spend time talking about the series?
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Mar 28, 2015 00:54
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WickedHate posted:The story ended, but isn't the Gentry still sapping our lives away the more we spend time talking about the series? Why are you listening to the bad guy, who's trying to get you to let it go by leaving the story unfinished?
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Mar 28, 2015 02:29
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Sure, but does discussing and analyzing the book improve your life in any way? Maybe now you'll be watching some stupid movie on Netflix, think "This is some Gentry poo poo.", and turn it off so you can do something more constructive. Grant wants us all to be super heroes. JLA: World War 3, Final Crisis, and Ultra Comics all touch on it. Either be a super hero or a super cannibal.
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Mar 28, 2015 03:04
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Die Laughing posted:Sure, but does discussing and analyzing the book improve your life in any way? Maybe now you'll be watching some stupid movie on Netflix, think "This is some Gentry poo poo.", and turn it off so you can do something more constructive. Why are you assuming that he's talking through the villain? Fact is, you've let the Gentry in and now you've convinced yourself that you're caught in the Oblivion Machine. But there is no Oblivion Machine, and there's nothing wrong with reading comic books.
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Mar 28, 2015 03:24
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Effectronica posted:Why are you assuming that he's talking through the villain? Fact is, you've let the Gentry in and now you've convinced yourself that you're caught in the Oblivion Machine. But there is no Oblivion Machine, and there's nothing wrong with reading comic books. Aww, that's super heartwarming. Grant Morrison is so cool. 
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Mar 28, 2015 03:35
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Still yet to get to a comic book shop and pick up Ultra Comics :-( That said, my favourite moment of comics ever is Wally Sage dying in an alley, talking about how they hosed it all up and made comics violent bullshit. It's true that GMoz plays with the same ideas over and over but I'm interested to see how his post-Batman work plays out. Post-Invisibles his party line that he gave in interviews and the Discordian manual of black Magic was 'Don't protest, join the evil mega-corporations and infect them with good from the inside.' From my perspective that was what he tried to do and failed with his Batman run, it's going to be interesting how he reacts to that.
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Mar 28, 2015 03:53
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wizardstick posted:Post-Invisibles his party line that he gave in interviews and the Discordian manual of black Magic was 'Don't protest, join the evil mega-corporations and infect them with good from the inside.' From: http://ifanboy.com/articles/exclusive-image-expo-happy-from-grant-morrison-darick-robertson-at-image-comics/ "For numerous reasons, I think it’s important for any writer in the comics business to maintain a healthy portfolio of creator-owned material and IPs and I’m encouraged and inspired by the fact that companies like Image exist to provide that platform and permit a level of creative self-expression that’s hard to find in other media." I'm also curious to see if his attempts to be Mark Millar and write movie storyboard comics (i.e. Happy!, Dinosaurs vs. Aliens, Joe the Barbarian, etc.) end up having any effect on his usual output. Thus far he's struck out trying to get We3, Sinatoro, and 18 Days made into films, and considering how much he hates Millar, it must gall to see how easily he ports his Millarworld stuff over to the screen.
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Mar 28, 2015 04:49
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wizardstick posted:I'm interested to see how his post-Batman work plays out. Check out Nameless. It's all evil magic runes on asteroids.
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Mar 28, 2015 05:12
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Effectronica posted:Why are you assuming that he's talking through the villain? Fact is, you've let the Gentry in and now you've convinced yourself that you're caught in the Oblivion Machine. But there is no Oblivion Machine, and there's nothing wrong with reading comic books. There can be if you read lovely books. And i think it's wonderful that DC published a book with a Nazi Justice League facing off against the Freedom Fighters who are portrayed as a sympathetic terrorist group. Multiversity makes some harsh critiques sometimes, but it obviously comes from a good place. The dude loves making comic books, and just wants them to be more than a mindless indulgence.
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Mar 28, 2015 05:38
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Die Laughing posted:There can be if you read lovely books. Well, yes and no, I think. He's saying that reading critically is good and part of enjoying something, but he's also making an interesting argument with how he takes "this is a totally new comic, like nothing you have seen before" right after borrowing a trick from Jack Kirby's OMAC #1 (and of course from lots of stuff before), and putting it in the mouth of the villain. I think that he's arguing against snootiness over comics and genre fiction and especially trying to make hierarchies of what's more or less shameful.
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Mar 28, 2015 05:55
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Effectronica posted:Well, yes and no, I think. He's saying that reading critically is good and part of enjoying something, but he's also making an interesting argument with how he takes "this is a totally new comic, like nothing you have seen before" right after borrowing a trick from Jack Kirby's OMAC #1 (and of course from lots of stuff before), and putting it in the mouth of the villain. I think that he's arguing against snootiness over comics and genre fiction and especially trying to make hierarchies of what's more or less shameful. Ultimately,I think Morrison is writing off DC (and Marvel) as a place for good comics. The trap is not complete unless Ultra Comics is locked away as well. He gets at a similar point in other comics, most clearly in Action Comics where DC and work for hire agreements are the big villain of an issue.
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Mar 28, 2015 16:09
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I think what Morrison is trying to get across is that there's nothing wrong with analyzing comics, but that shouldn't be the focus of your reason for reading comics. You should be reading comics for enjoyment, sure, and analyzing them because you want to understand what makes them enjoyable, but you shouldn't be analyzing them solely for the sake of analyzing them or to just tear them apart. Hense "Intellectron" as a villian; it has no emotional connection to the story at all, it's just "intellect". Just analysis without concern for the narrative. Can someone buy Grant an account so he can confirm/deny all these theories? Thanks.
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Mar 28, 2015 16:17
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StumblyWumbly posted:I hear you, I love the comic, and I do hope you're right, but the idea that Morrison wants more critical reading is a bit undercut by the criticism that harms Intellectron. It isn't valid criticism, it's just folks getting sick of the dark spectacle and moving on. People getting sick of the dark spectacle and moving on isn't valid criticism? Let me rephrase it then: this thing is unoriginal, there are 500 other comics that present [dark spectacle] every month, and it's gotten commonplace and rather boring. Oh, this event is going to CHANGE THE UNIVERSE FOREVER? Blah, heard it last week. Add in that I have to assume Intellectron was chosen because the name screams that he represents the "these are graphic novels not comics" attitude, and I think there's a case for that all being pretty valid criticism.
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Mar 28, 2015 17:01
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