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Lightsabers should just use your Force Rating and your Lightsaber skill to determine everything, for everyone. Want to become good with one? Practice more or become better with the Force. Tada.
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Sep 30, 2014 19:12
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Fuzz posted:Lightsabers should just use your Force Rating and your Lightsaber skill to determine everything, for everyone. That would be interesting, but you're pretty much never going to have a Force Rating of more than 3.
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Sep 30, 2014 19:16
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Flame112 posted:That would be interesting, but you're pretty much never going to have a Force Rating of more than 3. Well using a lightsaber is pretty drat hard, man. The average Jedi at the battle of Geonosis (oh god why am I using a prequel example) got shot in the face by regular old blasters. Luke never deflects more than a handful of blaster bolts at a time, and even on Jabba's Sail barge he gets shot in the hand. During their duel on Bespin, Vader and Luke both miss each other completely a whole bunch of times without any fancy flipping or Force tricks... Luke literally just ducks and the Vader swings through a pipe. The Force is not a magical replacement for everything else, and the lightsaber isn't a magical weapon that makes you suddenly super badass. It lets you do a couple things that are new and different, assuming you roll well. Guess you gotta use those Destiny dice to make it happen. Jedi aren't D&D Mages.
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Sep 30, 2014 20:12
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Fuzz posted:Jedi aren't D&D Mages. Then why are you stating their weapon has to be connected to their magic power?  Jedi aren't D&D Mages but that doesn't mean Luke didn't carve poo poo up with his saber. In fact Luke was basically all about saberin' poo poo and doing front flips (acrobatics, not athletics). If you want to limit Jedi power then you need to look at their powers. Not their weapon that requires they run into melee range. EDIT: And I mean, "I don't think Jedi should be good at using a lightsaber AND using a blaster AND piloting a spaceship" literally describes Luke, and it's also really weird because you can make any given character who's great at blasterin' and flyin' but somehow you add a melee weapon that the blaster dudes would never use and suddenly it's out of the question. ProfessorCirno fucked around with this message at 20:27 on Sep 30, 2014 |
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Sep 30, 2014 20:24
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Handing a lightsaber to Luke was an act of insanity or extreme recklessness on Obi-Wan's part. Then sticking a helmet over his eyes while he's in a confined room inside a spaceship and telling him to block blaster shots was just begging for him to kill Han when he walked in or put a hole in the Falcon's hull with an errant swing. Unless that lightsaber had a beginner setting on it and the blade wasn't at full power or something similar, putting it in the hands of a total novice and having him swing it around blindly lends credence to the theory that Obi-Wan was an insane drunk by that point.
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Sep 30, 2014 20:34
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ProfessorCirno posted:EDIT: And I mean, "I don't think Jedi should be good at using a lightsaber AND using a blaster AND piloting a spaceship" literally describes Luke, and it's also really weird because you can make any given character who's great at blasterin' and flyin' but somehow you add a melee weapon that the blaster dudes would never use and suddenly it's out of the question. Luke always struck me as a jack of all trades sorta guy. He was competent at a lot of stuff, but not really great at anything. He never did anything all that extraordinary with the force, was only okay with his lightsaber, a fair shot with a blaster, and a pretty good pilot who was able to do a little mechanical tinkering. Any of the prequel ninjas on crack Jedi could have taken him apart without blinking while they're cartwheeling around on the walls and poo poo. I think Luke was a good example of a fairly balanced force user character; he had unique gifts but didn't overshadow the other characters. I wouldn't actually want to play a character like that except in a very small party, though. Being the guy who's okay at doing anything usually winds up with nothing to do while the people who specialized take point.
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Sep 30, 2014 20:47
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Valatar posted:Luke always struck me as a jack of all trades sorta guy. He was competent at a lot of stuff, but not really great at anything. He never did anything all that extraordinary with the force, was only okay with his lightsaber, a fair shot with a blaster, and a pretty good pilot who was able to do a little mechanical tinkering. And this is the key point. Luke was supposedly CRAZY STRONG with the Force, like one of the most powerful Force users to ever live... Vader and the Emperor even mention this when they talk about how quickly his skills progress, because he's a natural. It just flows naturally through him and requires minimal effort, unlike most Jedi. He was not the norm and even by his standards, he never did anything super crazy. Vader was crazy powerful too and in the Original Trilogy the craziest ting he did was make a bunch of boxes fly at Luke and Force Choke a guy through Skype. You want to enjoy Jedi and the Force, forget the prequels, DEFINITELY forget the EU, and pretend poo poo like the Force Unleashed never existed. The Force gives you a little extra here and there, it's not a replacement. It's not a mutant power and Jedi are not Professor X, being able to telepathically download information from people or lift entire buildings like Jean Grey. They can jump a little higher, have slightly faster reflexes, sway the minds of those who are weak-willed, move objects with their mind, sense things around them, and sometimes get visions of the future. They can't crush an AT-AT with a wave of their hand or rip apart an entire fortress by looking at it. They can't pull a Star Destroyer out of orbit or fall 10 miles and magically not get hurt. Stick with the Original Trilogy's style and your players will be happier for it.
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Sep 30, 2014 21:04
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Fuzz posted:And this is the key point. Luke was supposedly CRAZY STRONG with the Force, like one of the most powerful Force users to ever live... Vader and the Emperor even mention this when they talk about how quickly his skills progress, because he's a natural. It just flows naturally through him and requires minimal effort, unlike most Jedi. Yeah, I entirely agree. There's no other way for a mixed party to ever have any sort of balance if the force users are bouncing around like gummi bears while force choking every enemy within a city block. Vader was head and shoulders superior to any non-Jedi, but he was also more or less Sauron at that point and an example of the pinnacle of force users.
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Sep 30, 2014 21:25
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Valatar posted:Handing a lightsaber to Luke was an act of insanity or extreme recklessness on Obi-Wan's part. Then sticking a helmet over his eyes while he's in a confined room inside a spaceship and telling him to block blaster shots was just begging for him to kill Han when he walked in or put a hole in the Falcon's hull with an errant swing. Unless that lightsaber had a beginner setting on it and the blade wasn't at full power or something similar, putting it in the hands of a total novice and having him swing it around blindly lends credence to the theory that Obi-Wan was an insane drunk by that point. Or maybe nerds have some sorta inherent inability to understand "narrative." Fuzz posted:And this is the key point. Luke was supposedly CRAZY STRONG with the Force, like one of the most powerful Force users to ever live... Vader and the Emperor even mention this when they talk about how quickly his skills progress, because he's a natural. It just flows naturally through him and requires minimal effort, unlike most Jedi. This is unfortunately not how F&D supports things, as the way force powers work dramatically support super jedi throwing around AT-ATs. The problem I tend to see though is that people are so paranoid of prequel or "Unleashed" style "super jedi" that they overreact and nerf jedi to the point where you can't actually be Luke anymore. And if your Star Wars game doesn't let you become a Luke-alike, it is, for me, fundamentally useless.
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Sep 30, 2014 23:33
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ProfessorCirno posted:This is unfortunately not how F&D supports things, as the way force powers work dramatically support super jedi throwing around AT-ATs. Thing is, the VAST MAJORITY of Jedi would only have a Force Rating of 2 or 3... that's why when everyone was initially complaining about how "Knight Level Play" was way too underpowered, I was sitting there wondering "Wait... what's the problem here?" FF gets it, they just scaled it to a point where it can encompass all walks but made it sufficiently ridiculous in terms of exp requirement to get to the ridiculous DBZ bullshit. The vast majority of Jedi and Sith in the history of the galaxy are probably Force Rating 2 or 3, with Masters getting up to 4 or 5 and being CRAZY powerful. Total freakshows like the Emperor, Vader, and Luke are the only ones that would get higher than 5.
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Oct 1, 2014 01:23
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That's weird, because you wouldn't have to allow for very much in order to get a Luke style character. His overt use of the Force was rarely flashy, and was more narrative than anything.
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Oct 1, 2014 01:23
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Part of the problem is that the universe isn't even really very consistent with itself, as far as force users go.
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Oct 1, 2014 01:35
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Hubis posted:Part of the problem is that the universe isn't even really very consistent with itself, as far as force users go. Well there were only 3 of them to worry about at first, so that wasn't really an issue, to be fair.
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Oct 1, 2014 01:37
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S.J. posted:That's weird, because you wouldn't have to allow for very much in order to get a Luke style character. His overt use of the Force was rarely flashy, and was more narrative than anything. Yeah I'm not sure what is preventing anyone from creating a Luke type character
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Oct 1, 2014 01:57
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alg posted:Yeah I'm not sure what is preventing anyone from creating a Luke type character People want to limit "super-powerful force users" Luke was allegedly "the most powerful force user" known Luke's demonstrated use of the force is very tame and generally in keeping with the tone of EotE, as opposed to supposedly "less powerful" force users from the Prequels/EU
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Oct 1, 2014 02:03
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Fuzz posted:Thing is, the VAST MAJORITY of Jedi would only have a Force Rating of 2 or 3... that's why when everyone was initially complaining about how "Knight Level Play" was way too underpowered, I was sitting there wondering "Wait... what's the problem here?" Except you're missing the problem. The problem is "can't use the force at all -> can use the force regularly" a'la Luke's growth costs like two full trees, whereas "can bring your lightsaber to you -> just loving chuck around a few X-Wings why not" costs like half a tree. My problem is and continues to be that the actual pacing is completely hosed. Learning to use the force to the point where you can use the force in minor ways consistently Luke Style should be far easier then going all Unleashed and poo poo. Currently it is the opposite. Or, if you want me to put it another way, the issue is that Force Rating rarely actually measures your strength and instead measures your consistency, mostly due to how the force die are built; light side dots are more rare big bigger, dark side dots are more common but smaller. Ironically, if you look at that, it's the opposite for dark side characters, so you get this extremely absurd set up where sith are good at small Force type stuff like sensing feelings and moving boxes and doing cool front flips when needed, while the jedi are really great at murdering the gently caress out of people every so often.
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Oct 1, 2014 03:30
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I dunno, the way I see the setup, if you want to play a super Jedi game, you start in F&D, take a couple powers and a Jedi talent tree. If you want to play a Luke-alike, take a Colonist tree and Force Emergent. I think the way FFG has split those out is pretty elegant and ingenious. Remember, Luke didn't start out in ANH as one of the most accomplished Force-users ever. He was a moisture farmer with a hint of precognitive talent. He went on to be a fighter pilot and developed some telekinesis. It took 3 movies for him to get to Jedi-ness. That's a whole lot of XP gains (and probably a house rule where all the XP he got from that session spent on Dagobah could only be spent on his Force trees and not on his other skills.)
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Oct 1, 2014 03:43
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I can't wrap my head around how squad combat and commanding squads works and how dice pools generate attacks and poo poo like that can someone post an example or anything like that?
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Oct 1, 2014 03:50
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Do you mean minion groups when you say squads?
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Oct 1, 2014 03:52
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No I mean squads and squadrons. I get that you can take a bunch of dudes and form a squadron with a leadership check maneuver, then form them into formations. But when do you use the tables for spending advantage and triumphs in squad combat. On any rolls you make while attached to a squad? When forming and adjusting formations only? Aside from acting as ablative wounds, squads seem really lovely and you're better off with a normal minion group shooting or whatever.
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Oct 1, 2014 04:00
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F&D update 4 http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_news.asp?eidn=5091 ^^^ offical answer: you don't. they are purely an HP sponge. there was discussion from the designer here: http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/109944-gm-screen-squad-rules/ and on Order 66: http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/Order66/~3/Axp1zCi16GU/Episode%2037%20-%20Missing%20Drops%20while%20Dead%20in%20the%20Water.mp3
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Oct 1, 2014 17:37
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That's too bad, they could have done so many cool things with squads.
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Oct 1, 2014 17:58
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Personally, I’d say that the big problem with using a lightsaber is having the self-discipline to use a weapon where the slightest mistake could lop off your head, so I’d make Lightsaber a Willpower skill. Willpower isn’t used for much else right now, and the other things it can do (Coercion, Discipline, Vigilance) just scream Jedi to me.
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Oct 2, 2014 10:10
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Having recently finished an EotE game in which I dipped pretty deep into the available Force Powers, I can say the problem is definitely consistency versus strength. Even after a fairly generous distribution of Force dice (I ended the game with 3 thanks for the GM letting me buy into multiple force trees), I found I couldn't really pull out the stops when I wanted. I went with Move and Influence. Part of the problem with Move is that in combat, it theoretically does a billion damage if you have a stray AT-AT laying around or whatever. In practice I never made it work. The double jeopardy of both "Get sufficient pips on your Move test" and "make a Discipline check" meant that most of the time I just whiffed and pulling out my blaster was way, way more reliable. Outside of combat though, particularly since there's no skill roll for just moving poo poo there wasn't a lot of stuff I couldn't throw around if I wanted. Spaceships, cars, whatever, as long as it didn't call for an actual opposed roll there was no reason to make me roll Force dice until I succeeded since there was zero risk in failure. I have no problem with Move not turning low-powered fringers into wizards; if anything, I prefer that mode of play. The problem is that you get this weird dissonance where you can, theoretically, crush somebody with a space ship and then it doesn't work; but outside of combat you're moving around giant stone blocks with your mind. I really think Move is more useful as a way to manipulate objects at a distance, since that enables cool scenes where 'more damage' would be just as possible if not easier with a bigger weapon. Honestly I wish they had just put the force powers into specialization trees themselves, rather than having force trees be this weird, separate thing you buy into. Then you can basically have Luke: the power progression as its own non-career specialization. And then you wouldn't have to have filler talents like Street Smarts in there either.
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Oct 5, 2014 08:53
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Mendrian posted:Having recently finished an EotE game in which I dipped pretty deep into the available Force Powers, I can say the problem is definitely consistency versus strength. If you're going to do anything with the force, you really want to have prioritized willpower at character creation. If you don't have at least three willpower, preferably four, you can't count on reliably pulling off any force power that involves a Discipline check. Especially because in Force and Destiny they finally address targets resisting your attempts to use the force on them so you can't just force push people around like dolls. There are good passive force powers and talents to pick if a high-willpower character doesn't fit your plan, but if you want to use active powers and go around tossing, choking, mind-controlling, or lightning bolting people, you'd better have built a character for succeeding Discipline rolls.
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Oct 5, 2014 20:18
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Are there any of the supplemental books that aren't good enough to bother getting? I'm stocking up and wondering if I need to get everything.
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Oct 6, 2014 14:40
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I'm not really the best judge since I just buy everything FFG makes for the line. I guess the career books aren't for everyone.
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Oct 6, 2014 15:26
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alg posted:I'm not really the best judge since I just buy everything FFG makes for the line. I guess the career books aren't for everyone. I think the career books are better than the adventures, though, since they contain ideas and hooks for parties with that career. In the case of Hired Guns in particular, many groups will act as mercenaries even if none of them are actually Hired Guns career-wise. The colonist book also has rules for upgrading the home base.
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Oct 6, 2014 17:20
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FISHMANPET posted:Are there any of the supplemental books that aren't good enough to bother getting? I'm stocking up and wondering if I need to get everything. The adventure modules are fairly optional. Like all of FFG's stuff, they're gorgeous, and it's easy to cherry pick adversaries or single encounters out if you're not planning on running the entire adventure, but if you're on a budget, they'd be the ones to skip.
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Oct 6, 2014 19:17
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FISHMANPET posted:Are there any of the supplemental books that aren't good enough to bother getting? I'm stocking up and wondering if I need to get everything. If for whatever reason you have a giant nerd boner for a particular career, go ahead and shell out for its splatbook, but most of them are  fodder, in my opinion. They have about twenty-five pages of info that you only ever need for long enough to write down on a character sheet, like species and equipment and talents. The rest of the content is  that are unlikely to significantly enrich anything. Nothing in the books was content that made me think, "I should buy this book and have it handy for any game I'm playing and will definitely get thirty bucks worth of value out of it."[Edit: Actually, the book on the Corellian sector is fairly useful, since it has setting stuff in addition to the usual handful of species and gear.]
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Oct 6, 2014 19:34
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Valatar posted:If for whatever reason you have a giant nerd boner for a particular career, go ahead and shell out for its splatbook, but most of them are I would highly disagree with this...the career splats have 20-30 pages of stuff that's only going to be useful for a character of a given career, but the rest of the book are pretty universally useful for GMs and players. The Explorer and Colonist books in particular have a lot of good campaign advice for running exploration-based campaigns and homesteads respectively.
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Oct 6, 2014 19:40
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On the other hand, I have a friend that works for FFG so I can get the books at a discount. I may just say screw and get them all, since I'm a completionist, and it's relatively cheap for everything.
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Oct 7, 2014 01:51
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FISHMANPET posted:On the other hand, I have a friend that works for FFG so I can get the books at a discount. I may just say screw and get them all, since I'm a completionist, and it's relatively cheap for everything. You were settin' us up for the good old humblebrag. 
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Oct 7, 2014 02:01
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I mean, I guess if you guys came back and said that AoR Core book is just literally poo poo bound in hard cover, that might have swayed me.
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Oct 7, 2014 02:17
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FISHMANPET posted:I mean, I guess if you guys came back and said that AoR Core book is just literally poo poo bound in hard cover, that might have swayed me. If you already like the game, the worst book is merely good.
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Oct 7, 2014 02:22
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F&D update 4 http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffg_content/StarWarsRPG/force-and-destiny/support/Beta%20Errata%204.pdf
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Oct 8, 2014 15:23
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So the Week 5 update for F&D reduces the Mechanics check difficulty of modifying your own lightsaber by 2 (and you can take it all the way down to Simple, and not need to roll for it). Does this address the issues people were having with "having to be a mechanic-speced character to mess with your saber? I don't have my book in front of me, but sounds like a really nice way to handle it. You're attuned to your own weapon, so you can mess with it a lot easier, but if you tried to mod someone else's saber, you need the full mechanical ability.
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Oct 13, 2014 10:56
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My Wookiee is a little confused as to why Coercion is based on Willpower, and I’m thinking about letting him buy a talent that would allow him to use Brawn for Coercion instead. How many XP do you guys think that talent should cost?
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Oct 16, 2014 09:18
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echopapa posted:My Wookiee is a little confused as to why Coercion is based on Willpower, and I’m thinking about letting him buy a talent that would allow him to use Brawn for Coercion instead. How many XP do you guys think that talent should cost? Never GM'd, but I feel like it's dependent on what class and specialization he is. Doctor? That's gonna be one expensive talent, since it won't come naturally given his training. Enforcer? 5 or 10, since he'll be used to flexing his muscles to frighten others.
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Oct 16, 2014 09:27
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echopapa posted:My Wookiee is a little confused as to why Coercion is based on Willpower, and I’m thinking about letting him buy a talent that would allow him to use Brawn for Coercion instead. How many XP do you guys think that talent should cost? Because in a setting where everybody has guns, being threatened with a wedgie isn't as scary as it was in middle school? Don't get me wrong, I don't think it's a terrible talent idea, but Brawn isn't the default for a reason. As for the cost, I'd look at his current spec's talent trees and pick a 20 or 25 point node to replace with your new talent. It's likely going to shift the skill from the wookie's worst stat to his best, so it should be expensive.
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Oct 16, 2014 09:43
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