|
Read "The Fourth Part of the World" re: globes and flat earths. http://www.amazon.com/The-Fourth-Part-World-America/dp/B003NHR618
|
#
?
Aug 31, 2014 17:54
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 5, 2024 10:49 |
|
|
Prester John posted:I could go on and on with this idea. I feel it explains for example Bitcoiners bizarre expectations of riches. (They are priests of the Free Market and as such will be rewarded in the end) After all what is Atlas shrugged if not just a wordy version of Objectivist Jesus rapturing his people away in the last days as God(The Free Market) pours out his judgement on the rest of the world? I think some very similar things but I use different language. The growing problem for me is that the language I use (and to large extent think in) is the language they use to hurt people like you.
|
|
#
?
Sep 2, 2014 14:57
|
|
|
VideoTapir posted:Read "The Fourth Part of the World" re: globes and flat earths. I'd also recommend Gould's "Late Birth of a Flat Earth" for a short, straightforward summary of how the flat earth myth got going.
|
|
#
?
Sep 5, 2014 17:27
|
|
|
Bel_Canto posted:Yeah basically this. Everyone zeroed in on Lactantius (3rd/4th century C.E.) as an example of the errors of the ancients in thinking that the earth was flat, but he was a major outlier: pretty much no educated person had thought the earth was flat since around the 3rd century BCE or so. It's a shame that Cosmas Indicopleustes' Christian Topography didn't catch on. The world is quite obviously tabernacle shaped, not round or flat. I recommend the text highly, it's a hoot if you're bored and feel like laughing at someone who is not very educated and very, very insistent on a single point despite many good counterarguments even in his day. It's just like reading the most of the internet, is what I'm saying. I think.
|
|
#
?
Sep 5, 2014 18:22
|
|
|
I went to one of these schools in seventh grade and Jesus Christ was it horrifying. We lived in a small town in the California desert, and my single mother had no idea what to do about my terrible anxiety. She assumed I was acting out (I was a very good kid, I just couldn't do well in school) and decided that it was the influence of all those bad kids in public school. Christian school would surely straighten me out! Every parent who signed their kids up for the school had the same idea, and most of them really did have behavior problems. All of the high schoolers (all of them) were violent rejects who were involved in some sort of illicit activity. I was the only kid my age there, everyone else was older or younger. It was such a bizarre and alienating atmosphere and I started to get in trouble because I began questioning what was written in my science books, which were all very big on young Earth creationism--something that wasn't taught in my home. There was no outlet for creativity or intelligence and it was just super stressful in general. We didn't have corporal punishment for the younger kids (pre 9th grade), but one time the teacher did haul her second-grade daughter out in front of the class and instructed us all to watch as she spanked her over something minor. At the time I was so overwhelmed by how hosed up literally everything was, but that sticks out in my mind as a particularly nutty moment in my childhood.
|
|
#
?
Sep 5, 2014 23:58
|
|
|
Numerical Anxiety posted:It's a shame that Cosmas Indicopleustes' Christian Topography didn't catch on. The world is quite obviously tabernacle shaped, not round or flat. I recommend the text highly, it's a hoot if you're bored and feel like laughing at someone who is not very educated and very, very insistent on a single point despite many good counterarguments even in his day. 
|
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2014 03:48
|
|
|
Prester John posted:I have thought a great deal about this, having grown up amongst such types. I have a pet theory I have developed after thinking a great deal on the matter and having read both The Republican Brain and The Authoritarians. I feel that underneath the window dressing there are a great many similarities between Dominionists, Libertarians, and Conspiracy Theorists/Birchers. There's actually theory about this, it's a thing. People don't just make up their own narratives about the world, they draw on a stock of existent stories to explain their world. These are narrative forms, and archetypal groups of forms are schematic narrative templates. As an example of a schematic narrative template, take a look at Bertrand Russel (who owns). Bertrand Russel showed that Saint Augustine's philosophical interpretation of the bible and Marxism have a really creepily similar narrative structure. They're dichotomous struggles, in which the elect/proletarians are destined to reach paradise/communism, when the Second Coming/Revolution comes. The Church/Communist Party has a crucial role to play in spreading the words of the Messiah/Marx. ^was paraphrased from an article I'm currently reading. Got cites for the poo poo in there if you want em.
|
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2014 04:59
|
|
|
Numerical Anxiety posted:It's a shame that Cosmas Indicopleustes' Christian Topography didn't catch on. The world is quite obviously tabernacle shaped, not round or flat. I recommend the text highly, it's a hoot if you're bored and feel like laughing at someone who is not very educated and very, very insistent on a single point despite many good counterarguments even in his day. Thanks for the heads up. I'm reading it now and it's like a bizarro De Rerum Natura. It owns.
|
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2014 05:18
|
|
|
sugar free jazz posted:There's actually theory about this, it's a thing. Maybe if you ridiculously simply and distort things to make them fit an extremely broad and vague "narrative structure". Marxism is an ideology, not a story, it doesn't have a "narrative". The proletariat is a constantly changing group of people identified by economic and class characteristics, not an essentially arbitrary group that is predetermined and unchanging. Class struggle is not inherently dichotomous, and was not in the past, Marx believed society was reaching a point where due to specific circumstances it would become similar to one. Communism is a hypothetical form of social organization, not a supernatural or heavenly paradise (and revolutions would produce socialist states, something that has happened in history, not communism; communism would theoretically be a further development from socialism). Revolutions are things that have and do actually happen in human history and are organized and carried out by humans, not a hypothetical salvation which would be implemented by divine whim. A Marxist party, in the broadest sense, is just a group of people who agree with Marxism and try to take actions towards building socialist states, and even in a specifically Leninist-organized party there is no concept of infallibility or any authority outside of the collective knowledge of party members. Marx is not even remotely a Messiah analogue to Marxists; he was a man who came up with some theories that Marxists broadly accept to some degree and have subsequently built off and around. Almost all Marxists have significant disagreements with Marx about some parts of his economic analysis, historical works, methods of party organization, etc., and most Marxists don't spend a ton of time doing anything involving him specifically and other figures, particularly Luxemburg, Lenin, Trotsky, Stalin, Mao, and a few others are more influential on (subsets of) modern Marxism than Marx or Engels. To return to a slightly more on topic discussion, these schools sound completely insane and I had never heard about them before this thread. Has there been any sort of major pushback against them anywhere or have they just flown completely under the radar for anyone except people who largely agree with them? Rogue0071 fucked around with this message at 06:50 on Sep 6, 2014 |
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2014 05:56
|
|
|
Rogue0071 posted:Maybe if you ridiculously simply and distort things to make them fit an extremely broad and vague "narrative structure". But it does somewhat resemble communist propaganda after the Red October. There were definite evangelical overtones, inquisitions to root out heretics, etc. I don't think he was talking about Marxism in general, to be honest.
|
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2014 06:26
|
|
|
I was making a friendly point and telling a cute story in support of a thing he said. gently caress off. If you want to discuss the merits of theory on history and collective memory and how Mao is more influential on Marxism than Marx I'd be happy to but this isn't the thread for it, you weirdly hostile person. /\/\/\/\/\I was paraphrasing a funny thing Bertrand Russel wrote in 1973 not writing a takedown of Marxism or whatever.
|
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2014 06:35
|
|
|
At the very least, Marxism has a pretty strong Millenialist vibe to it. Couple that with a history of cults of personality, some basic dialectics and, yeah, Bertrand's point is pretty solid.
|
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2014 06:43
|
|
|
Shbobdb posted:At the very least, Marxism has a pretty strong Millenialist vibe to it. Couple that with a history of cults of personality, some basic dialectics and, yeah, Bertrand's point is pretty solid. Millenialist in the same sense as a guy predicting (and writing a loving brick about) the abolition of absolute monarchy or the collapse of the British Empire is a Millenialist.
|
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2014 06:46
|
|
|
sugar free jazz posted:I was making a friendly point and telling a cute story in support of a thing he said. gently caress off. Sorry, I have had a bad week and apparently read a lot more into that post than was there.
|
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2014 06:48
|
|
|
GROVER CURES HOUSE posted:Millenialist in the same sense as a guy predicting (and writing a loving brick about) the abolition of absolute monarchy or the collapse of the British Empire is a Millenialist.
|
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2014 06:53
|
|
|
The Millenialist vibe is particularly present in early American Marxism. One of Debs' big problems was that he (and his followers) felt that the advance of Marxism was inevitable. Because it was inevitable, it's more of a waiting game. Not that they didn't try to advance their cause but not with the fervor that, for example, contemporary Continental Marxists did.
|
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2014 07:01
|
|
|
Rogue0071 posted:Sorry, I have had a bad week and apparently read a lot more into that post than was there. Yo I appreciate the apology and we've all been there. Gotta be a healthier way to channel that though.
|
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2014 07:11
|
|
|
Barlow posted:I find it hard to believe that someone who graduated an A.C.E program could succeed even at the upper levels of evangelical education. A college like Wheaton, Patrick Henry or even Liberty do have at least some standards. Never discount the ability of a human being to survive and overcome. Prester John is a good example of this. I attended a series of A.C.E. schools from K-12. While they weren't run by sociopaths to the degree that the OP experienced, they absolutely teach by rote, punish deviation and questioning and do nothing to teach you how to learn. Very similar to the recent kerfuffle in Ohio (I think) about just teaching scientific facts, instead of scientific thinking. Despite this terrible start, I ran into some excellent teachers at community college that taught me how to actually learn and think for myself. Eventually I graduated from ASU with a BS in Math and very gainfully employed. On the other hand, none of my classmates (out of the dozen or so I still hear about) are doing as well, so I definitely got very very lucky. In short, it's possible to succeed after a terrible start like this, but you have to get lucky and help from some great professors willing to pick up the slack. Not everybody is so lucky.
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2014 03:15
|
|
|
Apocalyptic reasoning is a response to oppression and poverty. I though that was pretty widely known. I guess it isn't. Basically when things are bad for a group the response is often stories that say: someday this bullshit will end. Something like the book of Revelations is "Someday this Roman bullshit will end". If Marxism goes: "Someday this capitalism bullshit will end", what it's engaging in is apocalyptic reasoning. That (doing apocalyptic reasoning) is not necessarily a bad thing, it depends on how it's interpreted. Rogue0071 posted:Marxism is an ideology, not a story, it doesn't have a "narrative". Myths are the symbol language we use to interpret meaning. Talking about a historical process active in the world, that is the center of the world, with beginning middle and end states, is myth talk. Going on to talking about if that is reality or literally true or scientific is is discussing if the myth is a "broken" or "unbroken" myth. You're making the same error as the fundamentalists. That error looks like this: My beliefs are historical, scientific, and certain and thus they are not myths. Edit: "Conscious literalism" is the word for it. Bar Ran Dun fucked around with this message at 16:16 on Sep 9, 2014 |
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2014 15:40
|
|
|
BrandorKP posted:Apocalyptic reasoning is a response to oppression and poverty. I though that was pretty widely known. I guess it isn't. Basically when things are bad for a group the response is often stories that say: someday this bullshit will end. Something like the book of Revelations is "Someday this Roman bullshit will end". Some things are true, sorry. To say otherwise is just pooping yourself into irrelevance oh yeah never mind.
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2014 16:22
|
|
|
SedanChair posted:Some things are true, sorry. To say otherwise is just pooping yourself into irrelevance oh yeah never mind. Or, Some things might be literally false and metaphorically true. Some things might be objectively true but existentially false. A faith might be real and dynamic but the corresponding beliefs might be false. "One should distinguish two stages of literalism, the natural and the reactive. The natural stage of literalism is that in which the mythical and the literal are indistinguishable. The primitive period of individuals and groups consists in the inability to separate the creations of symbolic imagination from the facts which can be verified through observation and experiment. This stage has a full right of its own and should not be disturbed, either in individuals or in groups, up to the moment when man's questioning mind breaks the natural acceptance of the mythological visions as literal. If, however, this moment has come, two ways are possible. The one is to replace the unbroken by the [53] broken myth. It is the objectively demanded way, although it is impossible for many people who prefer the repression of their questions to the uncertainty which appears with the breaking of the myth. They are forced into the second stage of literalism, the conscious one, which is aware of the questions but represses them, half consciously, half unconsciously. The tool of repression is usually an acknowledged authority with sacred qualities like the Church or the Bible, to which one owes unconditional surrender. This stage is still justifiable, if the questioning power is very weak and can easily be answered. It is unjustifiable if a mature mind is broken in its personal center by political or psychological methods, split in his unity, and hurt in his integrity. The enemy of a critical theology is not natural literalism but conscious literalism with repression of and aggression toward autonomous thought." -Symbols of Faith excerpted from Dynamics of Faith People in the primitive literal category often get taken advantage of by people in the "consciously literal" category. And consciously literal thought is directly opposed to critical thought and utilizes authoritarianism to suppress it.
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2014 17:06
|
|
|
Yeah ok, but Marxism isn't a faith. Neither is a lot of things. Not all things fit the definition of myth regardless of how hard you try to make them work that way.
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2014 17:12
|
|
|
If it has something to say about what we are and what we ought to be or what history is and what the end of history ought to be then it's a myth. If you say Marxism isn't a myth then implied is that it doesn't relate what ought to be to what is symbolically. If it is apocalyptic, if it says some variation of "Someday this capitalism bullshit will end", it clearly does that and is a myth. That's not a big deal. That's just saying that Marxism uses symbols to relate us to reality in a historical narrative. VVVV Edit: Shhhh, Don't tell anybody but they're the same thing. But that's the problem isn't it. Bar Ran Dun fucked around with this message at 18:52 on Sep 9, 2014 |
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2014 17:49
|
|
|
BrandorKP posted:If it has something to say about what we are and what we ought to be or what history is and what the end of history ought to be then it's a myth. Climb out of the Joseph Campbell ghetto or wherever you are living, that's called an "ideology."
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2014 18:05
|
|
|
One of the more convincing advertisements I've seen for A.C.E.: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e9e3AsD-Wo8
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2014 19:20
|
|
|
Prester John posted:I hope I'm not impugning on the good will the thread has shown me here, but my laptop is really rally gonna die soon. I'm putting up a Gofundme to buy a new computer so I can I may have some pc parts just collecting dust. this has been very enlightening, anyone have more stories along the lines / from that rebecca house business. Sensory deprivation is really serious stuff, go look at the leaked ORCON Jose Padilla or Mohammed al-Qahtani files to see what prolonged exposure does to the human psyche. http://content.time.com/time/2006/log/log.pdf
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2014 19:26
|
|
|
M2: Everything is true. GP: Even false things? M2: Even false things are true. GP: How can that be? M2: I don't know man, I didn't do it. While banal, it does tend to get to the point of certain uses of philosophical tools in horribly inappropriate locations. (I had a PC gathering dust. Problem is, it's far too many states away from Prester John and unshippable.)
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2014 20:51
|
|
|
I did get hooked up with a rather sweet laptop a Goon who shall rename nameless(un less he wants to be publicly named) was kind enough to ship out to me. So I'm all good there and waiting on pins and needles for it to arrive like it was the night of December 24th and I was a 10 year old boy again. I also beat my GoFundMe Goal of $500 by $40, which is just a testament to how incredibly generous politigoons are. Now I just need to go splurge all that money on a couple pairs of designer Jeans and vanish to be never heard from again so that the cycle may be complete.
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2014 23:04
|
|
|
This is one hell of a thread, Prester Johm. One: I'm glad to hear you're doing better now, and Two: You should write a book or something.
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2014 23:39
|
|
|
Prester John posted:Now I just need to go splurge all that money on a couple pairs of designer Jeans and vanish to be never heard from again so that the cycle may be complete. Please make your last post a picture of the fancy stuff you bought with goon cash.
|
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2014 00:14
|
|
|
I believe the correct purchase is 10 pairs of lovely khakis.
|
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2014 00:17
|
|
|
Kelfeftaf posted:Please make your last post a picture of the fancy stuff you bought with goon cash. What a great idea. Can do.
|
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2014 00:34
|
|
|
I had religious education all through high school. Each semester was a mandatory theology class. My very first class on the first day of second semester freshman year our teacher wrote the terms exegesis and hermeneutics on the board and made sure we all understood what both were, what the difference was, and why they were important. In sophomore year as part of my religion class I had to volunteer at the local hospital for 10 hours a week (I think). I am so sorry about what you all went through. I wish more religious schools were like mine  .
|
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2014 01:07
|
|
|
Prester John, thank you for this thread. It's horrifying and absolutely depressing that you had to wade through this garbage, and I have absolutely no idea how anyone in his or her right mind could possibly rate this as any sort of actual education. It's just the utter antithesis of anything rational or useful in the world, and I don't understand it as anything other than some sick bastard getting his rocks off on having that much power over a group of people. If/when you do decide to confront your pastor/rear end in a top hat authority figure from school, just remember that he's only a fellow human being (fellow in the biological sense, pond scum in every other), and that he has no power over you any more. I'm sorry to hear that the statute of limitations has apparently expired. Isn't there some extension on that for abuse heaped upon children for precisely the reason that it takes a long time for people to realize that what they went through was abuse/have enough power to do something about it and potentially even longer for action to be taken? I know this is personal, and something that you probably have discussed with a counselor at some point, so feel free to not answer it, but have you every told your father your side of the story about the physical abuse, and how much it hurt you when he mentioned that condoning the physical punishment was the "best decision" he's ever made with regard to you?
|
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2014 03:45
|
|
|
Prester John posted:I did get hooked up with a rather sweet laptop a Goon who shall rename nameless(un less he wants to be publicly named) was kind enough to ship out to me. So I'm all good there and waiting on pins and needles for it to arrive like it was the night of December 24th and I was a 10 year old boy again. Do you have to spend the money right away so it doesn't affect your benefits? poo poo man buy a 50 lb bag of rice at least.
|
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2014 03:48
|
|
|
pentyne posted:Do you have to spend the money right away so it doesn't affect your benefits? poo poo man buy a 50 lb bag of rice at least. He's jokingly drawing reference to LF's famous Bro Aziz donation debacle, which remains one of if not the dumbest things I've seen goons do.
|
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2014 04:16
|
|
|
Much like his namesake, Prester John is just playing a long con. In retrospect, people will suggest that maybe he went to Ethiopia with his money but more than likely he just stole it all.
|
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2014 06:17
|
|
|
Superb thread. Cheers.
|
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2014 08:10
|
|
|
Kelfeftaf posted:Please make your last post a picture of the fancy stuff you bought with goon cash. Not that I've ever done that, I mean... Captain_Maclaine posted:He's jokingly drawing reference to LF's famous Bro Aziz donation debacle, which remains one of if not the dumbest things I've seen goons do.
|
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2014 08:14
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 5, 2024 10:49 |
|
|
InequalityGodzilla posted:That was before my time, details? - I'm a gay muslim with a trans boyfriend and my lack of proper clothes for job interviews is keeping me homeless.  - My god! A gay muslim with a trans boyfriend you say?  *taunts goons with pictures of the designer clothes he got with their money*
|
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2014 09:28
|
|