|
OwlFancier posted:That isn't a real thing. It's a  -style slur used against #BLM, the NAACP, Holder, Jackson, Obama, etc., pretty much any prominent black critic of racism, more or less in exactly the same fashion and the same context in which Jewish/Zionist critics of antisemitism are accused of cynically deploying accusations of antisemitism.
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2015 22:47
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 6, 2024 23:47 |
|
|
The Insect Court posted:It's a Sorry, whose home did Jesse Jackson demolish? Because while criticisms of black civil rights advocates don't have any validity, criticisms of Zionism do. woke wedding drone fucked around with this message at 00:36 on Aug 19, 2015 |
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2015 00:23
|
|
|
The Insect Court posted:It's a So, since you seem to poo poo up every thread where Israel is criticized for anything, what, exactly, is a non-anti semitic criticism of Israel, if that is possible?
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2015 00:24
|
|
|
The Insect Court posted:It's a Treating all criticism of Zionism as antisemitic is antisemitic. Zionist does not mean Jewish, and Jewish does not mean Zionist. There are many people of Jewish faith who stand against Zionism (for various reasons), and erasing the perspective of a large chunk of the Jewish population seems pretty discriminatory. If by antisemitism, you mean hatred/discrimination of Jews, then yes antisemitism is bad (but doesn't include criticism of Israeli oppression of Palestine) If by antisemitism, you mean dislike/opposition to Israel, then Salaita is right, antisemitism when defined as opposition to Israel is a noble thing. Words can have multiple meanings, and you provide no insight or clarity to any discussion if you continue to equivocate.
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2015 00:37
|
|
|
SedanChair posted:Sorry, whose home did Jesse Jackson demolish? Because while criticisms of black civil rights advocates don't have any validity, criticisms of Zionism do. I see. Do you feel that modern, "colorblind" racism is morally unacceptable despite its claim to be a critique of culture and character instead of immutable biological characteristics, but the actions of Israel legitimize or excuse the same sort of 21st-century antisemitism? And needless to say, the "I'm not a racist, but..." racist attempts to justify his racism by pointing to riots and particular cases of violent crime, just as the "I'm not an antisemite, I'm an anti-Zionist" variety of antisemite points to what they portray as israeli crimes to justify their beliefs. Broken Mind posted:Treating all criticism of Zionism as antisemitic is antisemitic. Of course not, it is merely stupid and incorrect. quote:Zionist does not mean Jewish, and Jewish does not mean Zionist. "Thug does not mean black, and black does not mean thug. So there's nothing wrong in saying that I think the cops need to shoot more of those urban thugs." An acceptable statement or not? quote:If by antisemitism, you mean hatred/discrimination of Jews, then yes antisemitism is bad (but doesn't include criticism of Israeli oppression of Palestine) Are you claiming that any criticism of Israel cannot be antisemitic by definition? Is opposition to Israel still noble when it is motivated by antisemitism? Is the belief that the state of Israel should be eliminated when it's being voiced by a neo-Nazi or an Islamist? Panzeh posted:So, since you seem to poo poo up every thread where Israel is criticized for anything, what, exactly, is a non-anti semitic criticism of Israel, if that is possible? My own posts contain numerous examples of criticisms of Israel and Israeli policies, both those of others and my own. Feel free to peruse them. And kindly please stop making absurd allegations regarding the absolutely ludicrous idea that all criticism of Israel is routinely or regularly castigated as antisemitic. This particular grievance seems to often serve as a stalking horse no different from the insistence by far-right American conservatives that all criticism of President Obama is reflexively and unfairly rejected as racist. If you continue to do so, despite copious evidence to the contrary, it will be difficult to take your arguments as being offered in good faith and a spirit of dialogue.
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2015 01:16
|
|
|
The Insect Court posted:"Thug does not mean black, and black does not mean thug. So there's nothing wrong in saying that I think the cops need to shoot more of those urban thugs." An acceptable statement or not? Thug is offensive slang for black person, wheres "Zionist" is an actual functionally different word from "Jew" there isn't another word for that concept, and the two are very definitely not the same thing, which is the entire point of the discussion.
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2015 01:20
|
|
|
If #BLM were repeatedly and consistently labelling things like criticism of its tactics as evidence of racism, as does happen, then I think it would be legitimate to claim that such a broadening of the term racist to cover criticism of something done by a PoC as racist is devaluing the term. If someone argued that taking over the stand when Bernie Sanders was going to speak was an act that made the movement look bad and the immediate response was they only hold such a view because they're racists that don't think black people should be allowed to speak, I think that sort of reaction and attitude should be open to criticism. Of course that's a slightly different sort of situation to TIC's hypothetical of someone using reams of dogwhistles while calling for mass shootings of said individuals. In fact I'd argue that the former hypothetical is exactly the sort of thing that provides cover for those types of people. If legitimate criticism of political tactics or beliefs is labelled in the same way as dogwhistle rhetoric calling for the right to shoot black people based on suspicion, your use of the term is going to turn others off and devalue its ability to call out the latter group. Is the argument I just made proof that I'm a racist? I should clarify that I'm not overly familiar with #BLM or their tactics, I do not know if there is some orchestrated attempt to use racism as a label to attack critics (legitimate and illegitimate) of black figures or movements so it's a hypothetical example but I look forward to you explaining whether it is proof of racism or not.
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2015 04:01
|
|
|
The Insect Court posted:I see. Do you feel that modern, "colorblind" racism is morally unacceptable despite its claim to be a critique of culture and character instead of immutable biological characteristics, but the actions of Israel legitimize or excuse the same sort of 21st-century antisemitism? Did you notice how "I'm an anti-Zionist" is a meaningful clarification, whereas you could not think of a meaningful statement that could possibly follow "I'm not racist, but"?
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2015 05:24
|
|
|
Yo stop being stupid - racism is about power. When people say that accusations of antisemitism are being abused it's for similar reasons that people who bring up "anti-white racism" deserve to be made fun of. Black lives matter protesters do not have a highly-militarized nuclear colonial state to commit genocide of bernie sanders
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2015 06:24
|
|
|
OwlFancier posted:Thug is offensive slang for black person, wheres "Zionist" is an actual functionally different word from "Jew" there isn't another word for that concept, and the two are very definitely not the same thing, which is the entire point of the discussion. Except antisemites have been using zionism as a stand-in for their antisemitism. Its a loving dog whistle; just because you're deaf, doesn't mean the rest of us are. Bob le Moche posted:Black lives matter protesters do not have a highly-militarized nuclear colonial state to commit genocide of bernie sanders It would seem that some posters in this thread would call America exactly that. Alas, that's anti-Americanism and should preclude you from employment at institutions dependent upon Federal funding. My Imaginary GF fucked around with this message at 06:29 on Aug 19, 2015 |
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2015 06:26
|
|
|
The Insect Court posted:Imagine a post along the following line showed up in, say, the endless criminal justice thread: Instead of a silly made-up example, let's use a silly real-life example. One with Hitler, even!  Robert Mugabe posted:I am still the Hitler of the time. This Hitler has only one objective: justice for his people, sovereignty for his people, recognition of the independence of his people and their rights over their resources. If that is Hitler, then let me be Hitler tenfold. Ten times, that is what we stand for. Now, this is a pretty stupid thing to say, but was Mugabe endorsing the policies of Adolf Hitler or the NSDAP in any way? The answer is no. He was being defiant in the face of being compared to Hitler.
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2015 07:33
|
|
|
My Imaginary GF posted:It would seem that some posters in this thread would call America exactly that. Alas, that's anti-Americanism and should preclude you from employment at institutions dependent upon Federal funding. There are tenured professors with views that are anti-American, anti-Israeli, anti-Palestinian, and anti-all sorts of things, and it is important that we respect the validity of their tenure nonetheless because academic freedom is more important than stamping out anti-Americanism or anti-Israelism or anti-Palestinianism
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2015 07:36
|
|
|
eSports Chaebol posted:Instead of a silly made-up example, let's use a silly real-life example. One with Hitler, even! Woah now, Mugabe was endorsing the policies of Hitler at that time. He was leaning into being compared with Hitler. eSports Chaebol posted:There are tenured professors with views that are anti-American, anti-Israeli, anti-Palestinian, and anti-all sorts of things, and it is important that we respect the validity of their tenure nonetheless because academic freedom is more important than stamping out anti-Americanism or anti-Israelism or anti-Palestinianism We can respect antisemites' rights by allowing them to speak freely and blackballing them from all institutions which receive public funding. Policymakers in America could take a start on this by labeling BDS an antisemitic hate organization, potentially even adding it to State's terrorist organizations watchlist.
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2015 07:38
|
|
|
My Imaginary GF posted:Woah now, Mugabe was endorsing the policies of Hitler at that time. He was leaning into being compared with Hitler. Ah yes, justice, sovereignty, and independence: noted values of Adolf Hitler. Come to think of it, isn't openly attributing positive attributes to Hitler a blatant case of anti-semitism? Why are you promoting anti-semitism?
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2015 07:40
|
|
|
eSports Chaebol posted:Ah yes, justice, sovereignty, and independence: noted values of Adolf Hitler. For Germans, yes, just like Mugabe for black Africans. For the Jews of Germany and the Jews of Zim? Not so much.
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2015 07:41
|
|
|
MIGF, can anti-Zionists not be antisemitic?
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2015 08:04
|
|
|
My Imaginary GF posted:We can respect antisemites' rights by allowing them to speak freely and blackballing them from all institutions which receive public funding. Policymakers in America could take a start on this by labeling BDS an antisemitic hate organization, potentially even adding it to State's terrorist organizations watchlist. Shouldn't policymakers in America focus more on blacklisting all pro-corruption advocates from institutions receiving public funding, since corruption and profiteering from political positions(lobbying) is a clear and present danger to the US and all institutions?
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2015 11:45
|
|
|
My Imaginary GF posted:It would seem that some posters in this thread would call America exactly that. Alas, that's anti-Americanism and should preclude you from employment at institutions dependent upon Federal funding. I'm pretty sure MIGF is trolling, I have a lot of trouble thinking anyone can be that stupid. Is he arguing that the black lives matter movement has support from the US state in any way? (rather than getting violently repressed by it) That black people in the US are the equivalent of Jews in Israel rather than Palestinians? Like white settlers in the US are kept under black supremacy or something? What the loving gently caress what a bad joke
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2015 13:26
|
|
|
SedanChair posted:MIGF, can anti-Zionists not be antisemitic? Apart from deeply held religious belief, I do not see too many differences between anti-zionism and anti-semitism.
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2015 16:26
|
|
|
My Imaginary GF posted:Apart from deeply held religious belief, I do not see too many differences between anti-zionism and anti-semitism. Is it possible? Do non antisemitic anti-Zionists exist?
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2015 16:29
|
|
|
Another interesting question: can one be pro-Zionist, but against the current policies of the state of Israel with regards to the Occupied Territories (or other political matters), without being anti-Semitic? I'm not against the concept of a Jewish state, or the existence of Israel, but I am very opposed to many of the things that Israel is currently doing (as are many Jewish people and Israeli citizens). I don't consider this to be anti-Semitic in the least. What do you think, MIGF? EDIT: De facto, non-antisemitic anti-Zionists must exist, unless you claim that the Satmar Chasidim are self-hating anti-Semites (which would be an utterly insane position to take).
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2015 16:48
|
|
|
PT6A posted:Another interesting question: can one be pro-Zionist, but against the current policies of the state of Israel with regards to the Occupied Territories (or other political matters), without being anti-Semitic? The Satmar Chasidim are very sexist and anti-LGBT. They oppress Jewish women and LGBT people, but not for antisemitic reasons, probably. As for being Zionist and against current Israeli policies with regards to the OT? I imagine the people who voted for Zionist Camp and Meretz in the last elections would fall under that category (and also some of those who voted for the Joint List, as consistent support by the Communists for the two-state solution seems to be a form of Zionism), so that's a significant constituency even in Israel itself.
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2015 17:05
|
|
|
Aaand another one bites the dust:quote:I write to let you know that this morning Provost Ilesanmi Adesida has informed me that he will be stepping down from this role and returning to his faculty position in the College of Engineering on August 31. Oracle fucked around with this message at 19:20 on Aug 24, 2015 |
|
#
?
Aug 24, 2015 19:13
|
|
|
My Imaginary GF posted:Except antisemites have been using zionism as a stand-in for their antisemitism. Its a loving dog whistle; just because you're deaf, doesn't mean the rest of us are. How can a political belief be a dogwhistle? Zionism isn't some super special snowflake concept, it's basically just plain old religious nationalism. Is criticizing Islamic nationalist movements like ISIS a dogwhistle for anti-Arab racism? Is criticizing the Confederate flag a dogwhistle for anti-white racism? Is criticizing the pro-life movement a dogwhistle for anti-Christian racism? Criticizing a political view does not make someone racist against the group most likely to hold that view, and any claim to the contrary is just abusing the horrific legacy of racism to try and make your politics off-limits to criticism.
|
|
#
?
Aug 25, 2015 14:53
|
|
|
My Imaginary GF posted:Except antisemites have been using zionism as a stand-in for their antisemitism. Its a loving dog whistle; just because you're deaf, doesn't mean the rest of us are. Uhhhhhhh.... When Zionism is an actual Nationalist movement used in the justification for the displacement of an entire populous, its not a loving dog whistle.
|
|
#
?
Aug 25, 2015 14:58
|
|
|
Main Paineframe posted:Is criticizing Islamic nationalist movements like ISIS a dogwhistle for anti-Arab racism? I've been accused of being an anti-Arab racism due to my criticism of fundamentalist Islam, on this very forum no less, so... yes, according to some people.
|
|
#
?
Aug 25, 2015 19:18
|
|
|
ethno-religious nationalist, coming from a forum largely in favor of Kurdish nationalism but whatevs e: the entire concept of Jews existing as an "ethno-religious" group is itself based on a euro-centric notion of nationality too but likewise, whatevs WhiskeyJuvenile fucked around with this message at 19:22 on Aug 25, 2015 |
|
#
?
Aug 25, 2015 19:20
|
|
|
PT6A posted:I've been accused of being an anti-Arab racism due to my criticism of fundamentalist Islam, on this very forum no less, so... yes, according to some people. I said "Islamic nationalist movements", not "fundamentalist Islam". If you were in fact criticizing all of Islam because of a single Islamic political movement, that would in fact be pretty dogwhistley.
|
|
#
?
Aug 25, 2015 20:34
|
|
|
Update on the case I came across while blog reading. https://www.thefire.org/salaitas-why-i-was-fired-article-puts-civility-in-the-spotlight/
|
|
#
?
Oct 14, 2015 03:52
|
|
|
Resurrection from the grave, in all likelihood for the last time. University of Illinois OKs $875,000 settlement to end Steven Salaita dispute quote:The University of Illinois' decision last year to revoke a job offer to controversial professor Steven Salaita will cost more than $2 million, including an $875,000 settlement that trustees approved Thursday.  at the last line. "Disrupted"? More like destroyed. At least he got some compensation for this debacle.
|
|
#
?
Nov 12, 2015 22:48
|
|
|
"We still refuse to hire him because of our statements, and in our settlement explicitly deny wrongdoing, and are only doing this to cut our losses, but hopefully we can let bygones be bygones and be uncensured and have professors willing to teach here, right?" "guys?"
|
|
#
?
Nov 13, 2015 05:33
|
|
|
Neurolimal posted:"We still refuse to hire him because of our statements, and in our settlement explicitly deny wrongdoing, and are only doing this to cut our losses, but hopefully we can let bygones be bygones and be uncensured and have professors willing to teach here, right?" I can't believe how excited people are to teach at UIUC!
|
|
#
?
Nov 13, 2015 05:36
|
|
|
Ghost of Reagan Past posted:Resurrection from the grave, in all likelihood for the last time. Yes, UIUC's attorneys bungle'd the issue. I blame Pattyboy Quinn and Bruce Rauner for this. The issue that I have yet to see answered is, would the same department have hired an academic of comprable publication record, were Salaita's references towards Israel be applied to Palestine by a non-Hezbollah financed academic?
|
|
#
?
Nov 13, 2015 06:04
|
|
|
Absurd Alhazred posted:I can't believe how excited people are to teach at UIUC! It connotes excitement!
|
|
#
?
Nov 13, 2015 06:32
|
|
|
Absurd Alhazred posted:I can't believe how excited people are to teach at UIUC! There are enough starving academics that will take any job no matter where. The question is whether any top tier academics that can freely choose their workplace will show up (probably not).
|
|
#
?
Nov 13, 2015 12:11
|
|
I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
|
blowfish posted:There are enough starving academics that will take any job no matter where. The question is whether any top tier academics that can freely choose their workplace will show up (probably not). Applying to UIUC! It connotes desperation!
|
|
#
?
Nov 13, 2015 16:19
|
|
|
Absurd Alhazred posted:Applying to UIUC! It connotes desperation! One of my grad school colleagues got hired by them last year. Apparently the department in question was bending over backwards to assure candidates that their jobs would be safe.
|
|
#
?
Nov 13, 2015 17:15
|
|
|
If I were making this OP, I would have purposely included stories about both the guy criticizing israel, and another professor who was removed from tenure for racism or something like that. That way we could more easily separate out the meta-level discussion of "should tenure track professors be free to speak as they wish" from the object level "is this guy anti-semitic? you decide...." stuff that isn't nearly as interesting.
|
|
#
?
Nov 13, 2015 17:45
|
|
|
thought experiment: podunk flyover state U loses tax funding, goes fishing for donors literally hitler gets hired as tenured faculty, then un-hired while in the process of moving there over allegations of genocidal tendencies that upset donors should hitler be able to sue them for a job/money
|
|
#
?
Nov 13, 2015 18:11
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 6, 2024 23:47 |
|
|
Hmm is this like 1948 post-war hitler or 1922 angry activist hitler? If it's the former, did he win?
|
|
#
?
Nov 13, 2015 18:18
|
|