|
It's interesting that the Russians clearly expected this to be a meat-grinder and unlike the the highly-trained contract soldiers used in Crimea they're just sending in barely-trained warm bodies and conscripts (albeit VDV conscripts). Also, given the current fetish for guided weapons, how brutally effective the grads and artillery are proving to be in this conflict. And the extensive use of tanks despite both sides having access to advanced ATGMs.
|
#
¿
Sep 5, 2014 01:55
|
|
|
|
| # ¿ May 22, 2024 05:09 |
|
|
Here's a long and interesting article, though probably too pro-russian for most people's taste: http://www.lrb.co.uk/v36/n17/keith-gessen/why-not-kill-them-all
|
|
#
¿
Sep 5, 2014 02:47
|
|
|
too pro-seperatist for the thread's taste means "sees the donbass seperatists as people with grievances and concerns that could be addressed through negotiation rather than foolish dupes to be stomped" That said, the proper time for negotiations was long ago when the revolt had a mostly local flavour, rather than it's present status as a wholly GRU run operation
|
|
#
¿
Sep 5, 2014 03:41
|
|
|
Present posted:I'm not going to split hairs. Bottom line is many people from the Donetsk/Lugansk region are literally afraid of getting murdered/raped/eaten by Kiev and by Ukrainian army and by Ukrainians from the western part of the country. And I get that it's not their fault, but when they pick up guns and start abducting people for having a Ukrainian flag decal on their lovely Soviet era car, well, then it gets me. Probably because that sounds like total horseshit. Russia has more than a few nuclear reactors.
|
|
#
¿
Sep 5, 2014 04:33
|
|
|
Nintendo Kid posted:Just having a nuclear reactor doesn't mean you can turn a spigot and pump out some bomb juice, dude. You need specialized processing facilities to finish off that sort of stuff and assemble a working nuclear weapon. My point is Russia has a massive amount of nuclear infrastructure, has been a nuclear power for 65 years, still invests massive amounts in its nuclear forces and has the nuclear arm as its #1 defense priority, everyone believes they have nukes, everyone acts like they have nukes, they act like they have nukes, the fact their nukes don't work anymore would be a big fuckin deal and hard to keep quiet, and that the argument entails Russia not having a capability that north loving korea has, means the balance of probabilities suggest that the idea that russia's nuclear weapons are all inert is the most out-there of conspiracy theory nonsense
|
|
#
¿
Sep 5, 2014 05:13
|
|
|
It would be pretty funny if Putin did as Zhironovsky suggests and dropped a nuke on Warsaw only for it to break apart on impact wit a little note saying "BOOM" floating out just like in looney tunes
|
|
#
¿
Sep 5, 2014 05:17
|
|
|
Nintendo Kid posted:The fact that they may not be able to maintain them in the future however, is a fact. If you include "may not" in a sentence that's a red flag it's a possibility rather than a fact.
|
|
#
¿
Sep 5, 2014 06:25
|
|
|
SoggyBobcat posted:What's Russia going to do about it? Attack a NATO member? If Ukraine joined NATO, Russia would almost certainly immediately invade (formally, this time). They clearly think a Ukraine aligned with the West is intolerable. They might back down later when the US opens the doors on silos or a massive multinational force arrives to drive them out, but I can't see the Russians not trying their luck to reverse it.
|
|
#
¿
Sep 5, 2014 06:49
|
|
|
katlington posted:It is the west's fault for not rebuffing eastern europes attempts to extricate themselves from soviet hegemony. It is your fault if you told that abusive woman you would protect her so she should tell him she's leaving, her husband kills her, and you respond by barring him entrance to your convenience store.
|
|
#
¿
Sep 5, 2014 06:50
|
|
|
katlington posted:Russia is War Machine. Ukraine is Christy Mack. Who is going to play Dog the Bounty Hunter or the US marshalls? Poland, duh
|
|
#
¿
Sep 5, 2014 06:52
|
|
|
Cameron, Merkel, Hollande and Obama are the chicks on The View
|
|
#
¿
Sep 5, 2014 06:54
|
|
|
Let's just all agree that collective punishments inflicted on whole nations are a-ok and we didn't nuke enough of them drat Japanese
|
|
#
¿
Sep 5, 2014 07:28
|
|
|
Here's an article from Anatol Lieven that's worth reading given how prescient he was in this article: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/04/opinion/a-way-out-for-kiev-and-moscow.html?_r=1
|
|
#
¿
Sep 5, 2014 07:40
|
|
|
Munnin The Crab posted:
You mean a Buratino? They're a war crime waiting to happen, so it's terrible news if the rebels have one.
|
|
#
¿
Sep 7, 2014 13:44
|
|
|
Pimpmust posted:Some right-wing party in Poland apparently supports Russia, go figure. For a neo-nazi it seems to come down to: who do you hate more, the homos (who control the EU) or the jews (who control russia)? This swedish piece of poo poo decided he hates jews more but it must be a tough decision: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28329329
|
|
#
¿
Sep 7, 2014 15:42
|
|
|
Deteriorata posted:"Give me five" You can still say "give me those five" if you have definite set of five in mind
|
|
#
¿
Sep 9, 2014 03:03
|
|
|
I would guess that Putin is setting up Poroshenko for a compromise serious enough for a "stab in the back" myth to implant itself in the well-armed ukranian militias. Add some IMF austerity and some gas shutoffs and you have a good chance at a ukranian societal collapse over the winter, allowing Putin to sweep up "historical novorossiya". If not he can still pull the same poo poo next spring/summer, albeit at a higher cost.
|
|
#
¿
Sep 11, 2014 08:32
|
|
|
Armed far-right veteran's groups are a very good thing to have in a country about to go through an economic cataclysm: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/10/azov-far-right-fighters-ukraine-neo-nazis?CMP=twt_gu
|
|
#
¿
Sep 11, 2014 14:13
|
|
|
To be fair Finlander does turn Putin criticism into a truly bad pantomime
|
|
#
¿
Sep 11, 2014 23:44
|
|
|
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/11/despair-luhansk-residents-count-dead
|
|
#
¿
Sep 12, 2014 04:28
|
|
|
Dolash posted:Russia bears responsibility for this ruin, and so long as they maintain an environment of permanent crisis in the East the chances of relief and reconstruction are small. Neighbouring Ukrainian oblasts must see images of Luhansk and dread becoming the next city Putin decides to "liberate". Yes yes, the fact Russia instigated this removes any responsibility for the Ukrainians to behave in a moral fashion and not Grad civilian areas
|
|
#
¿
Sep 12, 2014 07:04
|
|
|
I am honestly surprised the Russian crew on that mistral haven't just sailed off while on "sea trials"
|
|
#
¿
Sep 13, 2014 00:24
|
|
|
karthun posted:I find it amazing that people still argue that Ukraine is trying to enter the US's orbit because of Amerimaiden and the Ukraine-US Association Agreement. No wait it was called Euromaiden and the Ukraine-EU Association Agreement. Well you see obviously everything is controlled by the US... Actually it is lizard people that control the US government. Or was it the Jews. I can't keep the conspiracy theories straight. Wait till I tell you about the Holy Roman Empire
|
|
#
¿
Sep 14, 2014 05:21
|
|
|
I hear they have a time machine and have been going back to get velociraptors to ride into battle
|
|
#
¿
Sep 15, 2014 14:21
|
|
|
Looks like Putin achieves his fundamental goal, a divided and weak Ukraine unable to integrate with the West, albeit at a higher cost than he wanted to pay. That said, there's every indication the Europeans will walk back the sanctions as fast as dignity will allow and there's a good chance Ukraine falls apart further (see: armed far-right formations, unsustainable debt, contracting economy, split between Poroshenko and Yatsenyuk) with the opportunity for further Russian encroachment.
|
|
#
¿
Sep 16, 2014 05:47
|
|
|
Finlander posted:Whether they are or not, I think both of these NATO countries will be pretty pissed when Russian terrorists target and then brutally murder their countrymen on Putin's orders. All evidence points to the seperatists loving up and blowing up MH17 when they thought it was a Ukrainian military transport, it wasn't a "targeted massacre".
|
|
#
¿
Sep 16, 2014 14:25
|
|
|
Ukraine cant even afford to feed the few soldiers it has, and you crazy fuckers think they can fund a nuclear weapons program? Do you think you could look into the eyes of the crying mother of a son in ISIS controlled territory and tell her the American army isn't coming back to iraq? Why are they called fingers when they don't fing?
|
|
#
¿
Sep 23, 2014 06:07
|
|
|
Oh and east ukraine may be a soviet era rustbucket but western ukraine doesnt even have any buckets to rust, econimcally speaking. Nor did Maidan magically banish to feckless corrupt incompetent politicians to Romania or something: http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/09/19/ukraine-s-president-wowed-congress-but-his-party-has-a-dark-side.html
|
|
#
¿
Sep 23, 2014 06:17
|
|
|
Lead out in cuffs posted:While not factually inaccurate, any article pointing out the Ukrainian neonazis in Poroshenko's government kinda needs to also point to those in Putin's, as well as the broad support and actual ties between Putin's government and far right groups internationally. But, well, the halcyon days when journalism and balanced reporting meant something are apparently long over. It's just all these people talking about invading russia and forcing them to learn proper democracy and non-corruption need to realize we kinda need to do ukraine first. Other consideration is the West may find Ukraine to be a less than stable or democratic partner, so geopolitically speaking you have to ask why you want to go the hilt against a great power to gain a corrupt burden that may be about to experience a far-right insurrection, particularly given the EU is already struggling dealing with members on its periphery and the US has its own Middle East and China woes. http://www.stratfor.com/image/ukraine-regional-gdp I do think they are heavily subsidized so GDP overstates their net benefit to Ukraine, but the point is ridiculing the east as an economic basket case who are foolish, budget-wise, for cutting themselves off from the rest of ukraine is a bit rich considering the whole of Ukraine is mostly a worse basket case than Donetsk is.
|
|
#
¿
Sep 24, 2014 00:53
|
|
|
Ruh roh http://blogs.wsj.com/economics/2014/09/23/ukraine-may-need-far-more-foreign-aid-to-rescue-its-economy/
|
|
#
¿
Sep 25, 2014 10:51
|
|
|
Rent-A-Cop posted:Fun reminder for everyone that those rockets are probably going to land within 250m of whatever they were aimed at. Though seeing as stock BM-21 systems have neither an artillery computer nor a GPS, what they aimed at and what they meant to aim at could be two very different things. Also the hallmark of Ukrainian militia assholery and pretty much any poorly-disciplined-force-with-access-to-heavy-weaponsolery (see: libya, syria, history)
|
|
#
¿
Sep 29, 2014 12:27
|
|
|
Slashrat posted:Worked for them at stalingrad, so figures they would try it again. Shooting deserters isn't just a historical Russian thing, not shooting them is the modern aberration Looks like debaltsave won't last much longer. Hopefully the Ukrainians weren't stupid and can pull out before they're overrun
|
|
#
¿
Feb 4, 2015 13:04
|
|
|
El Scotch posted:Russia is currently parading a big, glowing billboard for why you want to be part of NATO. Also a big glowing one to western Europe about why you don't want to expand NATO to countries you're not willing to go to war to protect
|
|
#
¿
Feb 18, 2015 05:35
|
|
|
Debaltseve has fallen apparently https://twitter.com/HromadskeTV/status/567951839171366912
|
|
#
¿
Feb 18, 2015 10:04
|
|
|
kalstrams posted:Yeah, I've seen similar tweets which would put exodus at some hour or two ago, maybe, and it would appear to be that either agreement was reached, or they did have to disarm themselves. The latter one, though, would contradict with the APCs part of them is leaving on. Yeah, this Vice News article makes it seem like it would require a miracle for the Ukrainians to avoid severely bad losses on the way out: https://news.vice.com/article/escape-from-debaltseve-how-one-convoy-made-it-out-of-ukraines-besieged-city And they better do it fast before some little green men swing into action, this seems like the type of opportunity they would risk themselves for
|
|
#
¿
Feb 18, 2015 10:44
|
|
|
jonnypeh posted:Looks like Putin doesn't think the west will do anything. Best reason for USA to launch nukes first. That would show Putin. Show him in a big way. Launch the spares at the Middle East and China as well to ensure the middle class can truly enjoy the glow of America's coming Thousand Year Republic
|
|
#
¿
Feb 18, 2015 10:46
|
|
|
Lucy Heartfilia posted:The separatists should just let them leave. Why are they still shooting at them? They are really subhuman scum. Not even the most basic human decency left in them. I know its kind of your thing, but you are a bit histrionic about the pursuing a defeated enemy thing that every military ever has done. If they were marching out as part of an agreed surrender that would put it into subhuman violation of the laws of war territory but that doesn't seem to be the case. I certainly doubt i will find posts of yours advocating mercy when the seperatists were retreating.
|
|
#
¿
Feb 18, 2015 11:11
|
|
|
Lucy Heartfilia posted:You say one should trust the separatists who violated several ceasefire agreements and also routinely humiliate, torture and execute their prisoners of war. The separatists who don't let the OSCE do it's job? Now you think they would suddenly honor an agreement instead of executing all soldiers after they have given up their weapons? Like they did before with soldiers who surrendered? We should not merely trust them, we should give them the launch codes to America's nuclear arsenal! We should donate billions to the DNR and LNR as they will selflessly use it to create a network of orphanages where they will raise the world's most dispossessed and vulnerable children in a non-judgemental environment of opportunity and growth! Do you think they would not do it? Like the DNR supporter who donated some potatoes to an orphanage I read about somewhere? Or the one I heard second hand about who got a degree in trustworthy trustiness from Oxford's College Of Really Swell Guys?
|
|
#
¿
Feb 18, 2015 11:48
|
|
|
The story behind the Ukranians being able to get anyone out will be an interesting one. The seperatists would have had that road zeroed in for artillery for days now. Either the Ukranians came up with something particularly cunning or there's some behind the scenes pressure from Merkel to stop a massacre.
|
|
#
¿
Feb 18, 2015 13:53
|
|
|
|
| # ¿ May 22, 2024 05:09 |
|
|
OhYeah posted:This was a pretty harsh article. You mean, other than India, China, most of south america and the middle east, and bits of the EU? Russia may have alienated aome of the countries its most useful to be friends with (US and western Europe) but they're by no means a pariah
|
|
#
¿
Feb 19, 2015 02:11
|
|