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EVE Online actually had real losses so whether or not to pursue the "optimal" choice was actually something you had to consider in view of whether or not that behavior in itself is optimal. There was a diminishing returns in modules for your ship in that the greater the improvement it was over other items in its class the more expensive that improvement became, until you could end up paying 100X more for a 5% increase in performance. You had to choose between flying the absolute best ship you could make with your inevitable funds and risk losing it all in one fight; building the cheapest piece of poo poo you could get and not stress it if you died a dozen times; or any amount of infinite positions in between. The net result was you saw a lot more variety in the kinds of things people would bring to a fight, instead of everyone that had played the game long enough being in the exact same stuff. (this effect got diluted for mass fleet battles where goonfleet had standard fits that it was willing to reimburse you for, but for general play it held up) But I guess people accustomed to WoW would freak out at the idea that gear could wear out or explode and be gone forever until you bought new stuff
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Sep 8, 2014 21:28
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The Sharmat posted:
It's been proven that stuff like that really is not fun for the majority of people. Gear breaking is fine, but it being gone forever is not. It's the reason why Hardcore mode is optional in Diablo instead of mandatory.
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Sep 8, 2014 21:29
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Mr.Unique-Name posted:I don't want that poo poo on armor. Maybe a weapon or focus or something like that, but having a bunch of special poo poo on armor is stupid. Elder Scrolls was about putting as many overpowered enchantments on your gear as possible, though I doubt the MMO has that level of freedom.
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Sep 8, 2014 21:30
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people are still making MMOs that aren't F2P? do they WANT absolutely no one to play them?
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Sep 8, 2014 21:34
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The Taint Reaper posted:It's been proven that stuff like that really is not fun for the majority of people. If MMOs have proven anything, it's that most of a game doesn't actually have to be fun for people to play it. you don't actually register any real reward in your brain when you're grinding until you reach your goal and get a new piece of the equipment treadmill/a new level with higher numbers everywhere. How is this any different, except that it results in a greater variety of possible decisions for the player to make?
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Sep 8, 2014 21:34
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Mr.Unique-Name posted:Sorry, it really isn't. They should have just locked out weapon/armor choices by class because if you do anything remotely suboptimal in an mmo you're wasting everybody's time. this would be true if it wasn't piss easy
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Sep 8, 2014 21:42
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SeXReX posted:people are still making MMOs that aren't F2P? do they WANT absolutely no one to play them? you dont really lose out in launching your game with a subscription; once the playerbase dies out (less than a year) you relaunch the game as f2p that way you get the early adopter money -and- the f2p cosmetics whale money
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Sep 8, 2014 21:51
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SeXReX posted:people are still making MMOs that aren't F2P? do they WANT absolutely no one to play them? actually, a lot of people still play subscription MMOs such as WoW, FF14, FF11 (which is the most financially successful FF to date)
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Sep 8, 2014 21:52
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Silver Striker posted:actually, a lot of people still play subscription MMOs such as WoW, FF14, FF11 (which is the most financially successful FF to date) aka all the mmo's that aren't (completely) poo poo
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Sep 8, 2014 21:53
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The Sharmat posted:If MMOs have proven anything, it's that most of a game doesn't actually have to be fun for people to play it. you don't actually register any real reward in your brain when you're grinding until you reach your goal and get a new piece of the equipment treadmill/a new level with higher numbers everywhere. How is this any different, except that it results in a greater variety of possible decisions for the player to make? MMO design needs an overhaul, so if it sounds like busywork or retracing your steps it's probably a bad idea. Setting yourself back because you die hasn't been appealing in multiplayer games for ages.
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Sep 8, 2014 23:44
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The Taint Reaper posted:I asked vanilla wow players why they still play vanilla. The reason is because they like the world. Like how all the areas were designed and it was much more simple back then. I think the more simplistic combat of old WoW is a lot better than what they have going on now, where you have to set up a million ridiculous eyesore popups to keep track of a boatload of different procs, conditional abilities, debuffs and other poo poo. You spend all your time staring down a bunch of icons rather than looking at the actual game world. Hope you enjoy finding keybindings for a hundred different skills. Instead of having one defensive cooldown on a 3-5 minute timer you'll get like 4 that are nearly identical and all take up their own key/ui space. I guess it's an effort to make the things feel more actiony, but that poo poo gets just as same-y and mundane as the old stuff over a fairly short period of time, at which point I appreciate a much cleaner UI, not developing carpal tunnel, and the ability to type in combat (haha, like people actually talk to one another in MMOs anymore). I also really liked how relatively challenging 5mans were the "casual" endgame because LFR is the most mind-numbing poo poo imaginable. There you are, stuck in a sea of angry retards that you hate and will never see again, as you mash through your rotation to kill some damage sponge slog of a boss/trash group 2% quicker at no real danger to yourself because the difficulty is tuned for literal infants mashing keys randomly. Might as well just go afk. Can't comment on how TESO does things because it looked like garbage from the beginning and I didn't buy it. I don't know how anyone can get excited over new MMO releases these days because they all turn out to be awful. Yeah, okay, I understand that you liked those star wars movies that were made 40 years ago by completely different people, but this game is still gonna suck no matter how many lightsabers they cram into it.
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Sep 8, 2014 23:45
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The Taint Reaper posted:MMO design needs an overhaul, so if it sounds like busywork or retracing your steps it's probably a bad idea. There's downsides and complications inherent in the challenge of any game. If there's no lose state, then it's not a game. Also in a game like EVE where the aggregate actions of all the players are meant to define the entire world, all these items are built by players. If none of these items ever left the game the entire economy would fall apart due to everything becoming less and less scarce as time went on The problem with EVE is that actually carrying out all these actions isn't fun. Fighting NPC pirates to get money and equipment is boring. Mining is boring. Research is boring. Everything but PVP is absolutely boring. If you make those things fun in and of themselves, people won't mind retracing their steps a bit if they lose, because it just means doing more cool fights.
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Sep 8, 2014 23:59
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Vargs posted:I think the more simplistic combat of old WoW is a lot better than what they have going on now, where you have to set up a million ridiculous eyesore popups to keep track of a boatload of different procs, conditional abilities, debuffs and other poo poo. You spend all your time staring down a bunch of icons rather than looking at the actual game world. Hope you enjoy finding keybindings for a hundred different skills. Instead of having one defensive cooldown on a 3-5 minute timer you'll get like 4 that are nearly identical and all take up their own key/ui space. Yeah that's true, the amount of buttons and macros you need is crazy. They never seem to have a proper direction set up for what abilities are needed and it's just a gamut of things that should be mostly uneeded in a more refined system. I mean diablo has like 6 buttons in total for moves and you can use a controller. And a controller is a shitload easier to use than a keyboard filled with 24 action buttons.
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Sep 9, 2014 00:01
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LFR is the worst thing ever. i thought it was okay until i played mists where if you want to raid even remotely seriously you are required to do the legendary quest which is months of LFR grinding. you basically just steamroll extremely easy bosses that have fewer abilities than normal and they deal basically no damage. you can routinely ignore nearly all of the mechanics of the fight. you're much more likely to run into the enrage timer than actually wipe. LFR is the kind of thing i could see people doing maybe once or twice if they wanted to see the content, but even then you're seeing the version of the content designed to be done by idiots. i'm not saying you have to make everything hard but LFR is like insulting easily
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Sep 9, 2014 00:04
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Half the fun of instances way back when was the trek out there with your buddies and the exploration of checking it out the first time. It was an adventure. What was not fun was having to do said instances over and over and/or not being the correct level to do them with your buddies. Sometimes you found out about some secret area or trigger in the dungeon you hadn't known about before. The problem being you'd already farmed than dungeon like 15-20 times by then and never wanted to head back or far outleveled it. In addition back in 2005 a lot of the time it was people's first MMO which meant people weren't smashing their faces against the progression. In a lot of ways we were all playing our own little version of morrowind. Just having the freedom to tromp around a massive world with pals and not worry about levels would be really cool. puberty worked me over fucked around with this message at 00:19 on Sep 9, 2014 |
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Sep 9, 2014 00:09
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Hello I am a web developer and I made this http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/tracker
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Sep 9, 2014 00:35
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Vargs posted:I think the more simplistic combat of old WoW is a lot better than what they have going on now, where you have to set up a million ridiculous eyesore popups to keep track of a boatload of different procs, conditional abilities, debuffs and other poo poo. You spend all your time staring down a bunch of icons rather than looking at the actual game world. They want to make it so everybody feels like healers do. Seriously, I like healing but it's just loving playing whack-a-mole with HP bars in pretty much every MMO. The only one I've tried that came close to getting it right was EQ2, because it had target-of-target implied targeting so you could target the poo poo you were fighting and actually put out DPS and toss out a heal on the tank when it looked like he needed it. I had somebody say Wildstar was better for it but yeah, it really isn't. The only difference is you need to pay attention to ground target poo poo and jump around more while still staring at HP bars and it just makes it unpleasant. Edit: Now that I think of it, this is also a problem with the basic design of the games. They go "A healer's job is to heal so that's all they should be doing" so they tune fights so that bosses poo poo out damage to the point where if you mistime a heal you'll probably lose a tank. Don't even think about trying to DPS because you will not be able to do that and still get a heal off in time unless your group is over-geared. Mr.Unique-Name fucked around with this message at 00:42 on Sep 9, 2014 |
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Sep 9, 2014 00:38
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Mr.Unique-Name posted:They want to make it so everybody feels like healers do. Warhammer Online did healers pretty well (and not much else). The melee healers needed to hit things to charge their mana equivalent, so they would wade into the fray smacking people and let out heals as they powered them up. The caster healers had a good system where the more they cast healing/damage spells the more it would improve their bonus to the next cast of the opposite type, so they were encouraged to mix it up between healing/damage spells or at least not be totally lopsided. Shame the game was mismanaged into the pit of despair.
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Sep 9, 2014 00:44
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Chomp8645 posted:Warhammer Online did healers pretty well (and not much else). The melee healers needed to hit things to charge their mana equivalent, so they would wade into the fray smacking people and let out heals as they powered them up. The caster healers had a good system where the more they cast healing/damage spells the more it would improve their bonus to the next cast of the opposite type, so they were encouraged to mix it up between healing/damage spells or at least not be totally lopsided. Actually yeah, I forgot about that game, like everybody else. It also had target-of-target or friendly target and enemy target and was able to assume who you wanted to cast on based on what you were casting. That game could have been good. 
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Sep 9, 2014 00:46
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Third World Reggin posted:Hello I am a web developer and I made this lol was shaking my head until i got to the patch note one
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Sep 9, 2014 00:48
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Third World Reggin posted:Hello I am a web developer and I made this Don't drink and dev, kids
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Sep 9, 2014 00:50
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Mr.Unique-Name posted:They want to make it so everybody feels like healers do. Uh wrong. In EQ2 healers changed their spells into melee abilities and nuked poo poo to death unless you were some stupid tree guy.
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Sep 9, 2014 00:52
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Third World Reggin posted:Uh wrong. In EQ2 healers changed their spells into melee abilities and nuked poo poo to death unless you were some stupid tree guy. I played an inquisitor and how does the fact that they were mostly melee (which I think was only the shaman and part of the cleric lines) have anything to do with anything I said or make me wrong? My point was that you were DPSing and healing and it worked pretty well. It doesn't matter if you were in melee range to DPS because of the fact it was also possible to do that in that game.
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Sep 9, 2014 00:57
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also eq2 had sorta proper non-healing supports with bards and enchanters I loving hate wow and everything that comes out copying its design decisions for making me miss poo poo about everquest
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Sep 9, 2014 01:00
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Sep 9, 2014 01:01
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They also did something that no other mmo has figured out yet. Seperate data for each skill for pvp or pve.
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Sep 9, 2014 01:01
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Then they launched like a week before wow, when the game was in a really bad state, because they thought that was a good idea.
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Sep 9, 2014 01:04
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Third World Reggin posted:They also did something that no other mmo has figured out yet. yess double the balancing effort and confusion on players' parts
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Sep 9, 2014 01:07
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It was really simple except they made like every class have 50 skills. Backstab does x-y damage and stuns target for 5 seconds click pvp button Backstab does w-g damage and stuns target for 1 second
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Sep 9, 2014 01:10
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Doctor Goat posted:yess double the balancing effort and confusion on players' parts It was way better than having specific PVP gear and resistances and poo poo.
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Sep 9, 2014 01:13
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Soral posted:i remember reading a post on these forums about how they made the lizardmen and the dark elves buddies in eso even though in the other elder scrolls games the dark elves enslaved the lizardmen. this is really amusing to me and i insist nobody correct any details that im half remembering because youll ruin it for me. UMM Actually, ur right. And the
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Sep 9, 2014 01:15
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Mr.Unique-Name posted:It was way better than having specific PVP gear and resistances and poo poo. or nerfing an ability because its overpowered in pv_ but not in the other one (this happens so many loving times its really annoying)
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Sep 9, 2014 01:19
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Here is some eq2 knowledge for you the game had a dumb launch with VOICE ACTING and alec baldwin and some other famous names that had their characters removed real fast because the game was supposed to be future proof in graphics so it ran like poo poo and no one wanted to be associated with the game. Maybe it was christopher lee So since no one could run the drat thing since the idea is dumb and makes things bad, during raids people couldn't look at the boss cause of all the dumb rear end textures like the flying crotch flaps and particle effects The developers understood they couldn't fix this so instead made the roofs above raid bosses really neat to look at since they knew people would be looking up just to avoid drawing things on the screen
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Sep 9, 2014 01:19
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Mr.Unique-Name posted:I loving hate wow and everything that comes out copying its design decisions for making me miss poo poo about everquest but wow mostly just aped EQ1
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Sep 9, 2014 01:45
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Yah I loved the 30 minute time between basic fights in wow
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Sep 9, 2014 01:47
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Third World Reggin posted:The developers understood they couldn't fix this so instead made the roofs above raid bosses really neat to look at since they knew people would be looking up just to avoid drawing things on the screen This is some funny poo poo.
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Sep 9, 2014 01:48
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The Sharmat posted:but wow mostly just aped EQ1 For the most part, but their attempt to make non-healing supports (shaman and I guess kinda paladin) was terrible and half assed and they reneged on it and made them healers/dps pretty quickly. I actually liked bards and enchanters because you had to pay more attention to everything going on and they had interesting play styles. I love cycling through songs throughout the entirety of a fight.
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Sep 9, 2014 02:10
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Mr.Unique-Name posted:They want to make it so everybody feels like healers do. Get rid of healing specific classes all together. I mean you can still have spell caster type guys just not healing specific guys. Make everyone have some form of HP regeneration and allow them to chug potions for oh poo poo moments like Diablo and Monster Hunter.
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Sep 9, 2014 02:18
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Mr.Unique-Name posted:It was way better than having specific PVP gear and resistances and poo poo. this is even worse, yeah The Taint Reaper posted:Get rid of healing specific classes all together. I mean you can still have spell caster type guys just not healing specific guys. Make everyone have some form of HP regeneration and allow them to chug potions for oh poo poo moments like Diablo and Monster Hunter. agreeing with taint reaper much to my chagrin except make healing still a thing but based on prevention rather than treating symptoms. potions should be an oh poo poo. monster hunter has good potions. edit: also copy ragnarok online's sitting mechanic: if you're not in combat and not in a place where things can threaten you at all you may as well be able to regen fast Doctor Goat fucked around with this message at 02:22 on Sep 9, 2014 |
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Sep 9, 2014 02:19
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having a dedicated healing class in any multiplayer game is a sign that one or more of your other class designs suck too hard to exist on their own death 2 healing imo
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Sep 9, 2014 02:22
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