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KodiakRS
Jul 11, 2012

:stonk:
Even for IFR training fs2004 is pretty limited. It's ok for things like practicing hold entries and setting up/briefing approaches but for the actual flying it leaves a lot to be desired. It's pretty telling that with ~2000 hours in my current airplane I can barley fly the FSX version.

As far as learning to talk on the radio experience is the best teacher. Live ATC is a great help but nothing really beats going out and annoying real controllers. Don't feel bad about annoying them though, they're used to dealing with new pilots and they're there to help you, not the other way around.

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The Ferret King
Nov 23, 2003

cluck cluck
We're also paid very well to handle pilots of all levels of experience. Your diligence in improving communication is appreciated, but don't let a surly controller keep you from maintaining composure on frequency. We are expected to act professionally even with brand new student pilots. If you run into problems, tell your CFI.

Myself and several other controllers check this thread regularly, please ask any questions you come up with and you'll get a good mix of pilot and atc input.

two_beer_bishes
Jun 27, 2004
I'm thinking about a career as an A&P. I'm hesitant though since I spent a fortune on flying only to get the shaft when they changed the hiring rules (and no interest in paying for CFI at this point) and I'm getting the shaft in ATC after spending money on a cti degree (changed hiring practices made that degree irrelevant) and will age out fairly soon (2 years).

Getting my A&P is something I've thought of for years but never pursued because at the time my plan was purely to be able to do everything on my own plane (don't have yet) and do some work on the side. Looking at schools though, it looks like it'll cost me anywhere from $15-50k for a 2+ year program. Instead of paying for the schooling, it looks like I can find an A&P to work under and log that experience which counts towards the A&P certificates. Is it hard/impossible to find an arrangement like that?

I love working on cars and tinkering with stuff, and I love working in aviation so it seems like it'll be a good job for me.

MrYenko
Jun 18, 2012

#2 isn't ALWAYS bad...

two_beer_bishes posted:

I'm thinking about a career as an A&P. I'm hesitant though since I spent a fortune on flying only to get the shaft when they changed the hiring rules (and no interest in paying for CFI at this point) and I'm getting the shaft in ATC after spending money on a cti degree (changed hiring practices made that degree irrelevant) and will age out fairly soon (2 years).

Getting my A&P is something I've thought of for years but never pursued because at the time my plan was purely to be able to do everything on my own plane (don't have yet) and do some work on the side. Looking at schools though, it looks like it'll cost me anywhere from $15-50k for a 2+ year program. Instead of paying for the schooling, it looks like I can find an A&P to work under and log that experience which counts towards the A&P certificates. Is it hard/impossible to find an arrangement like that?

I love working on cars and tinkering with stuff, and I love working in aviation so it seems like it'll be a good job for me.

The part 147 school I went to is still less than $2k a semester. More importantly, when you get your certificate, suddenly no one gives a gently caress that you got it at Riddle or Spartan. They care about what kind of experience you have, which will be none. Don't pay $20k for an A&P, its just not a field where schooling matters much. (Unless you go into management.)

Getting a job on jets without a license is pretty hard. You basically have to go to work for a repair station, and go that route, which can be hit-or-miss in terms of ever getting to work on whole-airplanes (REBUILDING LANDING GEAR FOR THIRTY YEARS SOUNDS LIKE FUN.) In GA, though, you can generally get a job as a shop assistant, and learn that way. You'll open and close a lot of panels, do a lot of oil changes, and generally be a gopher, but if it's a good shop, and you're not lazy/an idiot, you should be able to get a sign-off at the minimums.

Helicopters are a specialized field of their own, with generally a lot more travel, and better pay, but you have to fight with constant swarms of ex-military mechanics just to get your foot in the door. The only company I've ever been aware of hiring new mechanics to work on helicopters is PHI in Louisiana, and the starting pay was lousy.

I wouldn't pin my hopes the ATC thing either, but don't give up on it, either, and keep applying whenever bids go out. You only have to receive a tentative offer letter before your 31st birthday, not actually begin employment. I went to the academy with someone who walked in the door three weeks after her thirty-fifth birthday.

Relevant-question: Are you under 5'6" or so? Are you generally the shortest guy in a room, or close to it?

two_beer_bishes
Jun 27, 2004

MrYenko posted:

The part 147 school I went to is still less than $2k a semester. More importantly, when you get your certificate, suddenly no one gives a gently caress that you got it at Riddle or Spartan. They care about what kind of experience you have, which will be none. Don't pay $20k for an A&P, its just not a field where schooling matters much. (Unless you go into management.)

Getting a job on jets without a license is pretty hard. You basically have to go to work for a repair station, and go that route, which can be hit-or-miss in terms of ever getting to work on whole-airplanes (REBUILDING LANDING GEAR FOR THIRTY YEARS SOUNDS LIKE FUN.) In GA, though, you can generally get a job as a shop assistant, and learn that way. You'll open and close a lot of panels, do a lot of oil changes, and generally be a gopher, but if it's a good shop, and you're not lazy/an idiot, you should be able to get a sign-off at the minimums.

Helicopters are a specialized field of their own, with generally a lot more travel, and better pay, but you have to fight with constant swarms of ex-military mechanics just to get your foot in the door. The only company I've ever been aware of hiring new mechanics to work on helicopters is PHI in Louisiana, and the starting pay was lousy.

I wouldn't pin my hopes the ATC thing either, but don't give up on it, either, and keep applying whenever bids go out. You only have to receive a tentative offer letter before your 31st birthday, not actually begin employment. I went to the academy with someone who walked in the door three weeks after her thirty-fifth birthday.

Relevant-question: Are you under 5'6" or so? Are you generally the shortest guy in a room, or close to it?

Thanks for that. For atc, I'm just tired of waiting. I've been trying to get in since 2007 and my wife and I are ready to move, buy a house, and get settled. It's hard for me to say I've given up because I still want it badly.
I'm 6"1'.

MrYenko
Jun 18, 2012

#2 isn't ALWAYS bad...


No fuel-tank-diving for either of us, then.

:):respek::)

two_beer_bishes
Jun 27, 2004

MrYenko posted:

No fuel-tank-diving for either of us, then.

:):respek::)

Awesome, I was wondering how that was relevant

Captain Apollo
Jun 24, 2003

King of the Pilots, CFI
The a&p's at my field are my best friends and are always swamped with business.

Have fun being an apprentice for 3 years, though.

KodiakRS
Jul 11, 2012

:stonk:

Captain Apollo posted:

Have fun being an apprentice for 3 years, though.

Probably no worse than being a first officer on reserve at a 121 carrier for a few years or training at a new facility as a controller. Being new in any career field aviation sucks.

e.pilot
Nov 20, 2011

sometimes maybe good
sometimes maybe shit
IFR written this Friday. I know I'll do fine, but still nerves none the less. :unsmith:

SCOTLAND
Feb 26, 2004
Back onto reserve for November, the life of a pilot :smith:

Freshwater Louie
Jun 22, 2004

fffffffff

SCOTLAND posted:

Back onto reserve for November, the life of a pilot :smith:

At least you don't have to deal with the shitshow that are the Canadian regionals :haw:

xaarman
Mar 12, 2003

IRONKNUCKLE PERMABANNED! READ HERE
Speaking of which, have you guys seen this report?

The GAO report on the pilot shortage, Current and Future Availability of Airline Pilots:

http://www.gao.gov/assets/670/661243.pdf

CBJSprague24
Dec 5, 2010

another game at nationwide arena. everybody keeps asking me if they can fuck the cannon. buddy, they don't even let me fuck it

I'm still convinced there will eventually be a shortage unless the incentive is there to become an airline pilot. Fewer people are willing to sink six figures into flight training only to be told thanks to Chuck Schumer you have to build another 1200-1300TT to reach the magic number just to get paid $18,000/year. And, of course, all the labor/management bullshit that's going on when you DO get there.

As I've said before, there's no reason 1,500 should be the hard floor, and the educational credits provided to shut Riddle/UND/Purdue/any other 141 program up are garbage. "Go to this school and get your Instrument AND Commercial there. Oh, you already HAD Instrument? And it was done 61? Sorry, but that won't do.".

e- Among the industry stakeholders interviewed: Families of Continental Flight 3407.

Uhh...OK, I'm glad that group of industry experts who were probably among those who heard "Stall" and immediately thought it had something to do with the engines had their objective input solicited.

CBJSprague24 fucked around with this message at 05:12 on Oct 28, 2014

two_beer_bishes
Jun 27, 2004

CBJSprague24 posted:

I'm still convinced there will eventually be a shortage unless the incentive is there to become an airline pilot. Fewer people are willing to sink six figures into flight training only to be told thanks to Chuck Schumer you have to build another 1200-1300TT to reach the magic number just to get paid $18,000/year. And, of course, all the labor/management bullshit that's going on when you DO get there.

As I've said before, there's no reason 1,500 should be the hard floor, and the educational credits provided to shut Riddle/UND/Purdue/any other 141 program up are garbage. "Go to this school and get your Instrument AND Commercial there. Oh, you already HAD Instrument? And it was done 61? Sorry, but that won't do.".

e- Among the industry stakeholders interviewed: Families of Continental Flight 3407.

Uhh...OK, I'm glad that group of industry experts had their objective input solicited.

I agree about the shortage, and I wonder if it'll get bad enough for airlines to start cadet programs.

Butt Reactor
Oct 6, 2005

Even in zero gravity, you're an asshole.
If we get ab initio training in the states, it's going to be game over for GA flight training. Let's see how AOPA handles that one.

CBJSprague24
Dec 5, 2010

another game at nationwide arena. everybody keeps asking me if they can fuck the cannon. buddy, they don't even let me fuck it

two_beer_bishes posted:

I agree about the shortage, and I wonder if it'll get bad enough for airlines to start cadet programs.

I did some research for my Master's on cadet programs. Air Canada's model seems to make the most sense for a template (ignoring the myriad of things which could stop it from happening in the US).

Take in resumes to filter out the most attractive candidates. Send candidates to Florida for training. If you don't screw up, you get hired with Air Georgian on the Beech 1900. Stay there for four years and don't screw up and you're off to mainline Air Canada.

The question would be who would/could be the regional partner for each major. American seems like it'd be PSA/Piedmont (it's weird to not say US Airways there) since they're in-house, as would Delta/Endeavor. United?

The drawback, as Butt Reactor said, would be that Jim Bob's Flight School is going to be completely up a creek, and you wonder if even bigger schools would have problems attracting people.

CBJSprague24 fucked around with this message at 19:36 on Oct 29, 2014

fordan
Mar 9, 2009

Clue: Zero

Butt Reactor posted:

If we get ab initio training in the states, it's going to be game over for GA flight training. Let's see how AOPA handles that one.

For Part 141, maybe. Don't think a lot of the pro pilot wannabes come through the Part 61 schools, and at least for my club/school's instructors, feels like a 50/50 mix of time-builders trying to advance vs part-timers doing it for love of aviation.

KodiakRS
Jul 11, 2012

:stonk:

ORD TAF posted:

FM312100 36026G39KT P6SM SCT035

Well at least we have that fancy new runway layout to help minimize the delays!



Or, you know, not.

e.pilot
Nov 20, 2011

sometimes maybe good
sometimes maybe shit
Passed my IFR written with an 87% and wrapped up my long XC tonight. Almost there.

http://maplorer.com/permalink.php?file=2014-11-01_07_32_46_f_Track_2014-10-31-225357.gpx

PT6A
Jan 5, 2006

Public school teachers are callous dictators who won't lift a finger to stop children from peeing in my plane

e.pilot posted:

Passed my IFR written with an 87% and wrapped up my long XC tonight. Almost there.

http://maplorer.com/permalink.php?file=2014-11-01_07_32_46_f_Track_2014-10-31-225357.gpx

Congratulations. Out of curiosity, how much harder did you find the IFR test than the PPL written test? I ended up shifting gears and not doing aviation as a career, but even after four years of university in an unrelated field, I'd say the PPL written exam was in the top three most stressful/difficult exams I ever wrote.

e.pilot
Nov 20, 2011

sometimes maybe good
sometimes maybe shit

PT6A posted:

Congratulations. Out of curiosity, how much harder did you find the IFR test than the PPL written test? I ended up shifting gears and not doing aviation as a career, but even after four years of university in an unrelated field, I'd say the PPL written exam was in the top three most stressful/difficult exams I ever wrote.

Easier, just because I knew more what to expect this time around.

CBJSprague24
Dec 5, 2010

another game at nationwide arena. everybody keeps asking me if they can fuck the cannon. buddy, they don't even let me fuck it

The trick I was told was that across all the test banks, some questions repeat. You'll see a handful of familiar ones from the Private study book (I used the Gleim) in the one for Instrument.

Rolo
Nov 16, 2005

Hmm, what have we here?
If you don't learn to simply study the answers you're gonna have a blast when you take the ATP.

KodiakRS
Jul 11, 2012

:stonk:

Rolo posted:

If you don't learn to simply study the answers you're gonna have a blast when you take the ATP.

Didn't they drastically change the ATP a few months ago? Is it still all about rote memorization?

azflyboy
Nov 9, 2005
From what I've heard, no one has taken the new ATP written yet, since the courses to prep for the written haven't been set up. I think ERAU and one other place (can't remeber where) have been approved to run the courses, but aren't doing so yet.

fordan
Mar 9, 2009

Clue: Zero

azflyboy posted:

From what I've heard, no one has taken the new ATP written yet, since the courses to prep for the written haven't been set up. I think ERAU and one other place (can't remeber where) have been approved to run the courses, but aren't doing so yet.

Sporty's is starting theirs mid-November. http://www.sportys.com/atp

edit: Looks like 4 approved; ERAU in FL & AZ, ABX Air in OH (assuming that's Sporty's), Aerosim Training Solutions in Orlando and CAE SimuFlight in Dallas.

fordan fucked around with this message at 02:58 on Nov 3, 2014

CBJSprague24
Dec 5, 2010

another game at nationwide arena. everybody keeps asking me if they can fuck the cannon. buddy, they don't even let me fuck it

fordan posted:

Sporty's is starting theirs mid-November. http://www.sportys.com/atp

edit: Looks like 4 approved; ERAU in FL & AZ, ABX Air in OH (assuming that's Sporty's), Aerosim Training Solutions in Orlando and CAE SimuFlight in Dallas.

ABX is in Wilmington. It'd have to be Sporty's.

PT6A
Jan 5, 2006

Public school teachers are callous dictators who won't lift a finger to stop children from peeing in my plane
Are there any Canadian ATPs in the thread? I never got far enough to worry about the specifics, but the ATP process in the States seems much more frightening than in Canada, judging by how people talk about it. At the PPL level, the only level which I really looked at the differences, I'd say the Canadian training/licensing procedure is more onerous, but does this change at the ATPL level?

Rickety Cricket
Jan 6, 2011

I must be at the nexus of the universe!
Surely new 121 hires have taken the new ATP? I might be completely off the mark, but I was under the impression that people would get hired with ATP min's, and the written would be rolled up into ground school?

Stupid Post Maker
Jan 8, 2008

Rickety Cricket posted:

Surely new 121 hires have taken the new ATP? I might be completely off the mark, but I was under the impression that people would get hired with ATP min's, and the written would be rolled up into ground school?

Nope, all the new hires already had their writtens complete. If you didn't then you haven't gotten hired by an airline yet. The oral and check ride are the same though

Desi
Jul 5, 2007
This.
Changes.
EVERYTHING.

PT6A posted:

Are there any Canadian ATPs in the thread? I never got far enough to worry about the specifics, but the ATP process in the States seems much more frightening than in Canada, judging by how people talk about it. At the PPL level, the only level which I really looked at the differences, I'd say the Canadian training/licensing procedure is more onerous, but does this change at the ATPL level?

Not an ATP (yet, only at ~350hrs), but I know several colleagues that have written their As. Downside for us up here is that TC doesn't publish the test bank like the FAA does. Plus side, ours are two independent tests - the SARON (on Aviation Regulations and Air Traffic, Procedures, Aeroplane Operations and General Navigation) and the SAMRA (Meteorology, Radio Aids to Navigation and Flight Planning). You can break them up and do them weeks apart if you so wish. I think our pass mark is lower too, 70%?

Theoretically, with the reciprocal agreement, one could do the ATP exams/ride in either country on their current CPL and then do a rather simple test to convert back to the other. For that reason they keep the requirements close-ish. Though we haven't had any of the shenanigans with higher ATP mins like they have in the US... yet.

The Slaughter
Jan 28, 2002

cat scratch fever
Sauron, heh. Sounds like Sauron. And for us 70% is passing.
I took my ATP written on July 31st to beat the deadline and grandfather in, as I'm sure many others did.

e.pilot
Nov 20, 2011

sometimes maybe good
sometimes maybe shit

Desi posted:

:words:
Though we haven't had any of the shenanigans with higher ATP mins like they have in the US... yet.

Welp, time to move to Canada.

Freshwater Louie
Jun 22, 2004

fffffffff

e.pilot posted:

Welp, time to move to Canada.

Hopefully you enjoy lugging it out in a Navajo hauling pop and chips to the middle of nowhere. This is of course assuming you can find a job after you do a cross-country road trip handing out resumes to all of the employers you come across.

Another thing to note about the Canadian ATPL is that Transport Canada recently changed the regulations with respect to time needed as a co-pilot. You used to only be able to count 50% of your co-pilot time towards your ATPLs. This changed earlier this year. As of now all co-pilot time can be logged 1 for 1 towards your ATPLs. Don't worry flight instructors, you can still meet all of the ATPL requirements bombing around in a 152 completing circuit after circuit! :haw:

See the following for more information about the change: http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/opssvs/general-personnel-cop-1802.htm

Sarrisan
Oct 9, 2012
I'm sure this question has been asked before, but I couldn't find it, so sorry in advance for newbie questions.

Being a pilot has easily been my dream since childhood. I gave up on it at one point as being unrealistic, but after kicking around in retail for 4 years I've decided that if I'm gonna have poo poo pay and poo poo hours I might as well be doing something awesome like flying an airplane.

I'm doing as much research as I can, but I was curious what goon's opinions were about career paths for getting into aviation. Should I start grinding my way up, license by license, or is there some program I should be looking for? Should I start saving my pennies for the next few years for flight lessons or can you get some sort of student loan?

Sorry if these are common questions, but there seems to be so much to take in that every bit of guidance is appreciated, and I'm paranoid about taking some wrong move which seems great at the moment but fucks me later.

MrYenko
Jun 18, 2012

#2 isn't ALWAYS bad...

Sarrisan posted:

I'm sure this question has been asked before, but I couldn't find it, so sorry in advance for newbie questions.

Being a pilot has easily been my dream since childhood. I gave up on it at one point as being unrealistic, but after kicking around in retail for 4 years I've decided that if I'm gonna have poo poo pay and poo poo hours I might as well be doing something awesome like flying an airplane.

I'm doing as much research as I can, but I was curious what goon's opinions were about career paths for getting into aviation. Should I start grinding my way up, license by license, or is there some program I should be looking for? Should I start saving my pennies for the next few years for flight lessons or can you get some sort of student loan?

Sorry if these are common questions, but there seems to be so much to take in that every bit of guidance is appreciated, and I'm paranoid about taking some wrong move which seems great at the moment but fucks me later.

How old are you?

Freshwater Louie
Jun 22, 2004

fffffffff

Sarrisan posted:

I'm sure this question has been asked before, but I couldn't find it, so sorry in advance for newbie questions.

Being a pilot has easily been my dream since childhood. I gave up on it at one point as being unrealistic, but after kicking around in retail for 4 years I've decided that if I'm gonna have poo poo pay and poo poo hours I might as well be doing something awesome like flying an airplane.

I'm doing as much research as I can, but I was curious what goon's opinions were about career paths for getting into aviation. Should I start grinding my way up, license by license, or is there some program I should be looking for? Should I start saving my pennies for the next few years for flight lessons or can you get some sort of student loan?

Sorry if these are common questions, but there seems to be so much to take in that every bit of guidance is appreciated, and I'm paranoid about taking some wrong move which seems great at the moment but fucks me later.

Get your private license. Understand that you would have a much better quality of life and income in almost any other profession. If for some weird reason you still think you will die if you don't pursue flying as a career then go ahead and get your commercial license and other endorsements.

Sarrisan
Oct 9, 2012

MrYenko posted:

How old are you?

24.

Freshwater Louie posted:

Get your private license. Understand that you would have a much better quality of life and income in almost any other profession. If for some weird reason you still think you will die if you don't pursue flying as a career then go ahead and get your commercial license and other endorsements.

Time to start saving then. This time next year, I should have enough to start working on my private license in earnest. Maybe earlier, if I get antsy.

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MrYenko
Jun 18, 2012

#2 isn't ALWAYS bad...


http://www.usarec.army.mil/hq/warrant/prerequ/woft.shtml

At least give it a shot.

Edit: also keep an eye on this thread here:

http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3608176&perpage=40&pagenumber=17

MrYenko fucked around with this message at 22:58 on Nov 3, 2014

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