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Kellsterik posted:Wasn't this a thing in the Yuuzhan Vong era EU books as well? I think there was an evil peace movement that just wanted the Vong to win. Turns out that when you create every detail of the world and its history, you can make people who don't like war look pretty stupid! I thankfully never got that far. I got tired long before that of the constant attempts to make the Evil Women Hating Racist Nazi Empire Lead By Literally A Sinister Space Warlock into some sort of moral grey. I could never tell if it was just poo poo writers desperately trying to add the worst sort of moral ambiguity, or the usual tirade of gung-ho military fascists that flock to anything sci-fi like locusts.
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Oct 3, 2014 00:38
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I read these books and they were very formative! Then when I got older I realized there was lots of dumb poo poo!  I still have fond memories though.
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Oct 3, 2014 00:40
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quote:I honestly don't know whether we're supposed to find Michael an rear end in a top hat or a quiet saint for this, given the tone of the story. Objectivists are free-market capitalists who view altruism as weakness, so it's only logical that his brother's unethical business dealings would bring greater prosperity in the long run.
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Oct 3, 2014 02:24
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ProfessorCirno posted:I thankfully never got that far. I got tired long before that of the constant attempts to make the Evil Women Hating Racist Nazi Empire Lead By Literally A Sinister Space Warlock into some sort of moral grey. I could never tell if it was just poo poo writers desperately trying to add the worst sort of moral ambiguity, or the usual tirade of gung-ho military fascists that flock to anything sci-fi like locusts. I thought it was mostly that the Jedi are really, really unsympathetic protagonists, myself. But you're probably right about the milscifi types, considering what that genre attracts. Also, holy poo poo, more fire outlawing, not five chapters in. What does he do when lightning hits some dry brush? Arrest it with his wizard powers?
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Oct 3, 2014 02:42
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Kellsterik posted:Wasn't this a thing in the Yuuzhan Vong era EU books as well? I think there was an evil peace movement that just wanted the Vong to win. Turns out that when you create every detail of the world and its history, you can make people who don't like war look pretty stupid! Oh god, now I'm remembering the Mandarins from the Wing Commander series. I was never quite sure how a group of seekrit traitors who wanted to capitulate to the Kilrathi was seriously named after the culture that absorbed the Mongols.
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Oct 3, 2014 02:44
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Bieeardo posted:Oh god, now I'm remembering the Mandarins from the Wing Commander series. I was never quite sure how a group of seekrit traitors who wanted to capitulate to the Kilrathi was seriously named after the culture that absorbed the Mongols. Oh God, I remember this from WC2. It's because they thought 'For sure, once they conquer us, the Kilrathi will convert to our superior culture.'
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Oct 3, 2014 02:53
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Is Terry Goodkind really trying to say that guns are as useful and important as fire?
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Oct 3, 2014 04:37
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Will we see a showdown between Penis Rail and Dick Cypher in the future?  Jesus, how does he come up with these terrible names. It is hilarious to imagine this stup-up objectionist with zero self-awareness sitting around, thinking heavily before uttering "D..dark... Darken... Rahl! Darken Rahl! I'm a genius!"
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Oct 3, 2014 05:44
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Really Pants posted:Is Terry Goodkind really trying to say that guns are as useful and important as fire? What do they say when they want you to shoot a gun? That's right. 
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Oct 3, 2014 06:06
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Night10194 posted:Also, holy poo poo, more fire outlawing, not five chapters in. What does he do when lightning hits some dry brush? Arrest it with his wizard powers? Night, please. Don't ask us what he does to those bushes with that knife. It's too painful to recall.
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Oct 3, 2014 06:15
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Pimpmust posted:Will we see a showdown between Penis Rail and Dick Cypher in the future? To be fair, extremely terrible character names are an important part of The Objectivist Novel since the inception of the genre under Rand. They will always be so because god forbid an objectivist not capitalize on a possible vector of labeling things either the worst or the best.
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Oct 3, 2014 07:10
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DARKSEID DICK PICS posted:Night, please. Don't ask us what he does to those bushes with that knife. It's too painful to recall. Oh? But what if I use my incredible powers of inquisitiveness, as symbolized by asking basic, simple questions (as demonstrated by Dick Cypher) to FORCE the pictures and ideas into your mind so you tell them to me? Goddamn, we aren't very far and this is already one of the funniest books I've seen since TFR's Let's Read of The Collected Work of Crazy Whackjob Matthew Bracken.
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Oct 3, 2014 07:43
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Mr. Maltose posted:To be fair, extremely terrible character names are an important part of The Objectivist Novel since the inception of the genre under Rand. They will always be so because god forbid an objectivist not capitalize on a possible vector of labeling things either the worst or the best. quote:Dr. Feelmitch of the Food Control Bureau had concluded that such foods were unhealthy and they were subsequently removed by the state. quote:Strempf Goldswell had heard enough of such ideas. He bore not a trace of anger as he stood, adjusting the Tanto he wore at his hip next to his smart phone holster, and his voice filled the room. It was a voice that pressed down on Dr. Careslimp and his compatriots like the foot of a man climbing a ladder made of their faces. quote:Robert Baron listened to what Dr. Wimpton and the men from the Public Good Department had to say. He listened, lips tightened, square jaw set evenly against his fist, betraying no emotion, but the threat of emotion was apparent in his steel gray eyes.
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Oct 3, 2014 16:00
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If you ever have an antagonist who has, as part of his given, first name, any variant on 'dark,' 'evil,' 'bad,' 'horrible,' 'kill,' etc etc, you're not writing a novel, you're writing a comic book.
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Oct 3, 2014 16:07
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TheCenturion posted:If you ever have an antagonist who has, as part of his given, first name, any variant on 'dark,' 'evil,' 'bad,' 'horrible,' 'kill,' etc etc, you're not writing a novel, you're writing a comic book. Or a videogame!
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Oct 3, 2014 16:21
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The ban on fire and incredible questioning technique that gives people a headache with pictures is reminding me of that Caveman Science Fiction comic.
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Oct 3, 2014 16:54
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TheCenturion posted:If you ever have an antagonist who has, as part of his given, first name, any variant on 'dark,' 'evil,' 'bad,' 'horrible,' 'kill,' etc etc, you're not writing a novel, you're writing a comic book. Gotta give ol' George credit for "Savage Opress" though. It's so brazen.
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Oct 3, 2014 21:49
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PeterWeller posted:Yeah, no need to get upset about a guy clearing a field of straw men. Holy gently caress PeterWeller, I read this in the voice of RoboCop. Thanks for the laugh!
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Oct 5, 2014 10:47
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So I am not really clever and like many people missed the fire/gun control thing, but I read like the first four of these books. The reason I stopped was that something like 30 pages of the fifth book were ripped out of the copy at my library, like totally removed. I brought it back and they asked me 'can you read around it?' I said no but apparently that was the only copy in circulation in my state or something so they couldn't get a new one and that was that. Some of the stuff in these books is so crazy. Unrelated; is Rahl any sort of 'meaningful'- in quotes because Darken is so fantastically dumb- name as well or is it just whatever?
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Oct 5, 2014 17:53
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When the whole "Ban Fire" thign came up, this is the first thing I thought of:
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Oct 5, 2014 21:50
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MartianAgitator posted:Holy gently caress PeterWeller, I read this in the voice of RoboCop. Thanks for the laugh! Haha. I wonder if the other guy had made that association, would he have got the satire? Also, you poor fucks who are just experiencing this mess for the first time are in for the biggest  of your lives when you learn the reason behind Dick's last name being Cipher.
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Oct 5, 2014 23:13
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PeterWeller posted:Haha. I wonder if the other guy had made that association, would he have got the satire? I saw it coming and I still couldn't believe it when I read it.
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Oct 5, 2014 23:34
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It's been long enough that I forget what that reveal is. DDP, is everything okay? I know these books are bad, but you don't have to suffer in silence.
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Oct 6, 2014 01:01
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Oh, no, I'm just spending a lot of time at work this weekend. Like... 30ish hours. I'm not bringing these books to work where people might see me reading them and transcribing poo poo, no thanks. I'll see if I can't crank out the next chapters before bed tonight, though.
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Oct 6, 2014 03:23
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I always liked, and when I say liked I mean hated, the hundreds of pages that were spent with the mud people.
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Oct 6, 2014 03:56
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I AM TOTALLY POSTING THE NEXT POST BEFORE BED, I FOUND THE WIZARD'S DICK
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Oct 6, 2014 04:05
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no, don't tell us about old wizard dick
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Oct 6, 2014 04:06
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PeterWeller posted:Haha. I wonder if the other guy had made that association, would he have got the satire? Oh poo poo, he is Neo, the Keymaster to the Banal Computer Code of Magic. Or the secret Path to Magic is written in his DNA. Or something. Right? I like that his name is Dick Code, at least. It sounds like a secret trick to see a parallel universe gender-swapped Tomb Raider naked.
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Oct 6, 2014 04:46
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Paragon8 posted:I always liked, and when I say liked I mean hated, the hundreds of pages that were spent with the mud people. Are these people who live in mud, or are made of mud? What did Goodkind find so interesting about them that our attention focused so much on their mud-based civilization? Do I really want to know?
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Oct 6, 2014 05:11
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Warning: Post Contains Wizard Scrote Richard wakes up at the beginning of Chapter 6/the next day with a fever, because a thorn has been running through his loving bloodstream for a day or so now. He still refuses to mention this to Kahlan, however, which may be a good thing due to her response to breakfast: quote:Kahlan looked to his face, and concern came over her features. "Richard, what's wrong?" Fun fact: Show literally anyone that third paragraph and I bet you they'd never assume the context was "The hero offered the heroine an apple". Directly after this Richard goes "Hey we're at Zedd's" and then Zedd's house appears. There is no buildup at all, no transition. But thankfully, the descriptions of the place really make up for this in crazy. quote:Zedd's "reason" chair was empty. The reason chair was where Zedd sat and thought until he figured out the reason for whatever it was that had snagged his curiosity. He had once sat in the chair for three days straight, trying to figure out why people were always arguing over how many stars there were. He himself didn't care. He thought the question trivial, and he only wondered why people spent so much time debating the subject. At last he had stood and pronounced that it was because anyone could express his profound conviction on the subject without fear of being proven wrong, as it was impossible to know the answer. Such fools simply didn't have to worry about contradiction when proclaiming expertise. Having settled the matter, Zedd then went in the house and ate in earnest for three solid hours. Okay. So. I'm not going to dance around this poo poo. Zedd is the wizard who singlehandedly turned the tide of the Panis Rahl wars with D'Hara ages ago, got pissed, and stormed out of the Midlands forever. I've been hustling towards his introduction partly to see if I remembered it correctly, and holy poo poo did I. Ladies and gentlemen: Zeddicus Zu'l Zorander. quote:The two of them walked through the tall, wild grasses that surrounded the house and up a rise to the top of a small barren hill, where the cloud rock sat. Zedd was standing on the flat cloud rock with his arched back to them, his spindly arms outstretched and his wavy white hair hanging away from his head as it tilted back in scrutiny. I edited none of that. Well... I did bold it. Because why not. Zedd is one of my favorite characters for reasons I will get into later, and we'll see if this reread reminds me of something I forgot, but he is basically "doddering wizard grandpa" incarnate, just... through that Terry Goodkind lens. quote:One scrawny finger rose, pointing skyward. "I knew you were coming, Richard." His voice was as thin as the rest of him. To make this more plain: "bags" is a curse in this world. Because we can describe wizard rear end and there will be rape scenes later, but nobody is allowed to say "gently caress". I'm just gonna take a moment here: absolutely nothing kills my immersion in a book faster than awful profanity replacements. Take something that sounds plausible, think about it for a second, if you're ever going to. One of the few things I'll point to doing this well is the Wheel of Time, because a lot of them are just profane oaths, sometimes shortened. "Blood and bloody ashes" or "Light take you" or so on - and this makes sense within that world while sometimes just hearing someone go "Light! You can't be serious" and it all fits together over time. Someone else will probably gripe about that now and I feel bad for invoking a series I really enjoy in the middle of this mess. But I needed something to break up the concentrated crazy that is Zedd's introduction. Sorry. quote:"And I would say the cloud is from D'Hara." Lesson one: Richard has no game. quote:The old man peered closely into his eyes. "Oh, was I wrong? She is not a girl then?" Zedd cackled. Lesson two: Zedd is a master of the Dad Joke. quote:He smiled over the trick as he shuffled to Kahlan, bowed dramatically at the waist, lifted her hand only a little, kissed it lightly, and said, "Zeddicus Zu'l Zorander, humbly at your whim, my dear young lady." He straightened himself up to have a look at her face. When their eyes met, his smile evaporated and his eyes went wide. His keen features transformed to anger. He released her hand as if he had discovered himself holding a poisonous snake. Zedd spun to Richard. Remember when I said I wasn't going to dance around a lot of poo poo? Let's stop dancing around Kahlan. She is a Confessor. Specifically, by being... the last? of them, she is automatically the Mother Confessor, their highest. What this means is that she has a power that will let her make someone she touches become instantly, hopelessly devoted to her forevermore. This was a power wizards gave random women ages ago because it totally made sense at the time to solve trials and things. If you wanted to prove your innocence beyond a doubt and had no evidence in your favor, you'd call for a Confessor and get turned, which would guarantee anything you said was true because you now had no reason to live besides her whims. If you turned out to be innocent, wizards would then turn you into... I think it was like a talking dog or some poo poo, because that was the only way to give you back your faculties. We'll get to that later, but I know if I only described her power, someone was going to go "WHY WOULD THAT EVER BE A THING". This is why the fourth dude in the quad murdered his buddies, if you missed that. Anyway, Richard mentions quads, assuming that Zedd coming from the Midlands would have some empathy towards her predicament. It works! And then they begin filling one another in on what the gently caress went down in the prior chapters. We're 6 chapters in and we're recapping the prior ones for the third time. quote:Zedd bit off a chunk of carrot while thinking. "What did the vine look like?" And next time we find out everyone's stupid-rear end backstories. God, I wish I was joking.
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Oct 6, 2014 05:20
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Zeddicus Zu'l Zorander ... Zedd, isn't that the name of *another* Objectionist character/hero? From that awful online "comic strip" by... Muir? Also his last name is Zolander  I'll agree with you on the profanity replacement, WoT is one of the few that does it in a sorta coherent way rather than just taking some random words (...bones?) and turning them into profanity, or changing letters around on real profanity  Even when censors are at work you can at least put some real effort into it 
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Oct 6, 2014 05:34
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You didn't include the part where the wizard actually puts his clothes on so I'm gonna go ahead and imagine ol' Zed'ic'us''' is naked for the rest of the novel. Whenever he says "Bags!" it's because his inscrutably droopy and wizened ball sack has gotten stuck to or caught on something.
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Oct 6, 2014 05:34
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MartianAgitator posted:You didn't include the part where the wizard actually puts his clothes on so I'm gonna go ahead and imagine ol' Zed'ic'us''' is naked for the rest of the novel. Whenever he says "Bags!" it's because his inscrutably droopy and wizened ball sack has gotten stuck to or caught on something. I actually did, but it's hard to notice given that it comes in three disjointed mentions in that massive conversation about D'Haran cloud technology. I may slam out a second post tonight because chapter 7 is a whole bunch of exposition and I can condense that really handily.
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Oct 6, 2014 05:44
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Pimpmust posted:Zedd, isn't that the name of *another* Objectionist character/hero?  Noted enemy of teamwork and cooperation Lord Zedd?
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Oct 6, 2014 05:44
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DARKSEID DICK PICS posted:I actually did, but it's hard to notice given that it comes in three disjointed mentions in that massive conversation about D'Haran cloud technology. Don't care; post promised wizard scrote, that wizard scrote is now named "Bags."
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Oct 6, 2014 05:49
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Zedd is basically the shittiest Gandalf
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Oct 6, 2014 05:56
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Honestly, I don't remember ever not liking zedd when I read through the books (general hatred of stupid exposition and nonsense aside). I wonder if that will change. I also thought Wheel of Time was hot poo poo back then too, up until...oh, I forget. The book where chosen protagonist loses his hand? Grimpond fucked around with this message at 20:45 on Oct 6, 2014 |
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Oct 6, 2014 06:05
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Grimpond posted:Honestly, I don't remember ever not liking zedd when I read through the books (general hatred of stupid exposition and nonsense aside). I wonder if that will change. If you're going to like someone from these books, Zedd's a pretty solid choice. Particularly given his competition. Even if someone writes a really lovely book, if it has a large enough cast, at least one or two of the characters have to end up with "would be cool if they existed in another series" status eventually. Gazetteer fucked around with this message at 15:13 on Oct 6, 2014 |
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Oct 6, 2014 07:05
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If I remember it correctly, his bits in the wheel of time city were the only part of that section I thought was good
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Oct 6, 2014 07:12
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Chapter 7 is three sets of backstory as Richard hallucinates in a fever. Richard is tripping balls from the thorn in his blood, while Kahlan watches over him in his sleep, and Zedd is out searching for the herb needed to cure him. He keeps seeing Kahlan as his mother, and flashing back to his father and THAT BOOK. quote:He remembered how his father had taken him to the secret place in the woods, and had told him how he had saved the Book of Counted Shadows from the peril it was in from the beast that guarded it until its master could come. How he had brought it with him to Westland to keep it from those covetous hands, hands that the keeper of the book didn't know threatened. His father had told him how there was danger as long as the book existed, but he couldn't destroy the knowledge in it; he had no right. It belonged to the keeper of the book, and it must be kept safe until it could be returned. The only way to do that was to commit the book to memory, and then burn it. Only in that way could the knowledge be preserved, but not stolen, as it otherwise surely would be. This is it. This is the entirety of what Richard does this chapter. I think he's like 8-10 at this point. After his return, Zedd and Kahlan chatter on about why the hell she thought trekking to the Westlands at the cost of 5 wizards' lives and god knows what else was a good plan. The first half goes something like this: Zedd: So why in god's name are you alone? Kahlan: My wizard sold out, maaaaaaan. Zedd: Corporate wizards are tools. That's why I left. Kahlan: Wait, you're old as balls. Did you know THAT MAN? Zedd: Yes. I did. He would totally not help you though. And finally we get to the actual reason she's looking for him: quote:There was bitterness in her expression. "Zedd, Darken Rahl has used quads to kill all the other Confessors. I found my sister after they were finished with her. She died in my arms. With all the others dead, that leaves only me. The wizards knew their teacher did not want to help, so they sent me as the last hope. If he is too foolish to see that in helping us, he helps himself, then I must use my power against him, to make him help." So really most of the final paragraph is a thing, but the bolded lines are key here. Objectivism is basically founded on the myth of the ubermensch in a lot of ways, how there are singular strong individuals who rise above others. Usually angrily. In fact, I'm hard-pressed to think of a single Objectivist work where a lone dude being angrily sociopathic isn't celebrated. (One later SoT novel is basically The Fountainhead, With Wizards, for instance. Really, really close.) You notice how Richard's been trying to keep his anger in check so far a few times? Yeah, that's going to stop at some point and we'll see some real trainwrecks. Reminder: we are supposed to like these characters for these actions. Zedd's totally getting into adult temper time, for instance! Anyway, with her backstory explained, and a Seeker of Truth namedropped once more, they prepare the tonic and cure Richard. She refuses to leave his side, so just to be safe, he magicks her to sleep... and then Zedd goes outside, gets bloody, wizards the poo poo out of things, and summons his dead parents. No, really. quote:A fly bit his neck. He swatted it angrily, picked the offender off his neck, and glared at it. "Blood fly. Bags. I thought as much," he complained. Zedd's dead parents are actually really reasonable people, raising the point "So you left the Midlands because all your students sold out for greed rather than using their powers the right way - what exactly are you doing if you just faff about out in the wilderness instead of appointing a drat Seeker? Also it's Richard and we all know it. Also also Kahlan's unaware that Rahl doesn't have all the boxes so you have some breathing room. Okay, don't call us anytime soon, summoning the dead again might bust the land of the dead wide open! See you, son!" That might not have been a singular point so much as 10 pages of conversation cut down to a paragraph. I don't care. It's late and I have more work at 6AM, haha. That's Chapter 7! Have the deep inner monologue of Zedd as the chapter closes. quote:Zeddicus Zu'l Zorander, the great and honorable wizard, stood alone on the wizard's rock his father had given him, and stared out into the night, thinking wizard's thoughts.
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Oct 6, 2014 07:26
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