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Oldsmobile posted:This is also an excellent, quite a candid documentary worth watching. The guy is I guess, upper middle class by North Korean standards. Still he seems to have had it rough during the famine: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LY0Wlk1BtXA I just finished watching this and i feel torn. I think he is traitors piece of poo poo who ran from the army because he couldn't take it and he gets fat while the rest of the populous starves,But i can see why he did it, he had a lovely life. It sad that his kids now buy into all the bullshit. Edit: he also comes off as a pervy weirdo and i kinda believe Jenkins stories about the abuse. Joe comes off at a useful idiot by the end of it. Dapper_Swindler fucked around with this message at 23:22 on Oct 10, 2014 |
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Oct 10, 2014 23:02
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whatever7 posted:Arglebargle: I am a guy. You have done it a couple times. Oops, I was just trying to be polite. I think I must have confused you with someone else. Arglebargle III fucked around with this message at 03:21 on Oct 11, 2014 |
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Oct 11, 2014 03:16
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Femur posted:I think the dude is probably just being a passive aggressive baby, but a coup fits after he killed his uncle. He is not smart enough to make that move, it is a huge blunder. Could someone go into more detail about the KJU killing party elders? I remember hearing about it and it being a big deal at the time but more in the sense that "KJU is solidifying power".
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Oct 11, 2014 06:58
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pentyne posted:Could someone go into more detail about the KJU killing party elders? I remember hearing about it and it being a big deal at the time but more in the sense that "KJU is solidifying power". They kind of go into it a little in that Frontline video that was posted. Basically, there's a faction in the N. Korean leadership that is pushing for reform. Un is killing them off because he's trying to double down on the whole "I'm a huge, douchy dictator" deal.
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Oct 11, 2014 10:07
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pengun101 posted:I just finished watching this and i feel torn. I think he is traitors piece of poo poo who ran from the army because he couldn't take it and he gets fat while the rest of the populous starves,But i can see why he did it, he had a lovely life. It sad that his kids now buy into all the bullshit. A big issue with the North Korean system is that it endeavors to make everyone into villains for easier control, but most especially anyone who tries to escape. It might have loosened up in previous years, but in the past the standard punishment for a defector was for their entire family out to three degrees in all directions to be thrown into a labor camp. Thus, anyone who wanted to escape had to do so with the knowledge that they were condemning probably dozens of people they knew and loved to death. Not to mention the whole incentive system for ratting out your neighbors, and how elites at the highest levels were expected to violate laws in other countries to make big donations back home.
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Oct 11, 2014 13:37
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TheBalor posted:A big issue with the North Korean system is that it endeavors to make everyone into villains for easier control, but most especially anyone who tries to escape. It might have loosened up in previous years, but in the past the standard punishment for a defector was for their entire family out to three degrees in all directions to be thrown into a labor camp. Thus, anyone who wanted to escape had to do so with the knowledge that they were condemning probably dozens of people they knew and loved to death. Not to mention the whole incentive system for ratting out your neighbors, and how elites at the highest levels were expected to violate laws in other countries to make big donations back home. There's a documentary about NK where they interview a former border guard who when he was reading off some news reports over the radio and accidentally misspoke. Him and the other guy at the post both knew they'd be tortured and executed for the mistake, so they looked at each other, and instantly agreed they need to escape. During the escape the one guy died across some electrified wires, and it was the only thing that let the other guy escape. NK created a system where yes, you screw up and your family will suffer as well, but when you know that a single slip-up means horrific torture and death, you'd make a break for the border too because its a terrible way to live and at that moment all you can think about is not facing that punishment.
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Oct 11, 2014 13:58
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pengun101 posted:I just finished watching this and i feel torn. I think he is traitors piece of poo poo who ran from the army because he couldn't take it and he gets fat while the rest of the populous starves,But i can see why he did it, he had a lovely life. It sad that his kids now buy into all the bullshit. A person with his lot in life probably didn't have much to look forward to in the US. Maybe years in prison. But in North Korea, he's a well respected guy. So he's done pretty well for himself, certainly nothing to scoff at. His kids have a stake in the system and so they buy in to it. That's true all over the world. I like the documentary, because it shows glimpses of his regular life there and how banal things really are behind all the propaganda from both sides. I don't really give a poo poo if he's a traitor of some kind or not.
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Oct 11, 2014 14:18
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pentyne posted:There's a documentary about NK where they interview a former border guard who when he was reading off some news reports over the radio and accidentally misspoke. Him and the other guy at the post both knew they'd be tortured and executed for the mistake, so they looked at each other, and instantly agreed they need to escape. During the escape the one guy died across some electrified wires, and it was the only thing that let the other guy escape. I don't think North Korea has Taco Bell but otherwise I agree with you.
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Oct 11, 2014 15:06
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If North Korea's government collapses, can/will its neighbours seal off the borders and let its people die en masse?
Trochanter fucked around with this message at 16:00 on Oct 11, 2014 |
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Oct 11, 2014 15:57
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Trochanter posted:If North Korea's government collapses, can/will its neighbours seal off the borders and let its people die en masse? I think there will be a token effort in the name of stabilization but it is going to be a complete mess.
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Oct 11, 2014 16:05
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Trochanter posted:If North Korea's government collapses, can/will its neighbours seal off the borders and let its people die en masse? Well the border with South Korea is pretty well sealed off with all the land mines and other military stuff there already. It's the Chinese and Russian borders that are much harder to seal off, admittedly with much of the NK-China border going through terrible mountain areas.
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Oct 11, 2014 17:06
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You can't seal off the Yalu River. Although it would be smarter for the refugees to walk to South Korea en masse, the SK soldiers are not going to shoot the civilians.
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Oct 11, 2014 17:51
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whatever7 posted:You can't seal off the Yalu River. It is hard to walk across the minefields safely en masse, and I think you can expect NK military elements to block or destroy the few safe mine-free routes out of spite. DMZ is highly dangerous with minimal safe traveling capacity even if all soldiers there on both sides left their posts, after all.
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Oct 11, 2014 18:03
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Could the SK guard commanders be absolutely sure it wasn't some kind of trick? The war hasn't officially ended and NK keeps shelling them and saying how they're really definitely for sure going to exterminate the South next year. It would be hard not to be vary wary about letting "civilians" through en masse.
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Oct 11, 2014 18:08
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Trochanter posted:If North Korea's government collapses, can/will its neighbours seal off the borders and let its people die en masse? One interesting part of the argument of the author whose lecture was posted above is that North Korean propaganda has been so effectively racist that they're terrified of most of the world outside of North and maybe South Korea and wouldn't want to leave unless the alternative is literally starvation. With the maternal elements he (very effectively) argues take precedence over paternalistic imagery in the Kim cult, I could see Jong-Il's daughter replacing her brother quite smoothly; perhaps with a new conciliatory attitude that is less aggressive towards the outside world in exchange for aid and perhaps even legitimate trade to a degree. e: Reading his book now, and his opening quote is pretty  quote:MOTHER: 1) The woman who has given birth to one: Father and mother; a mother’s love. A mother’s benevolence is higher than a mountain, deeper than the ocean. Also used in the sense of “a woman who has a child”: What all mothers anxiously want is for their children to grow up healthy and become magnificent red builders. 2) A respectful term for someone of an age similar to one’s own mother: Comrade Platoon Leader called Dŏngmani’s mother “mother” and always helped her in her work. 3) A metaphor for being loving, looking after everything, and worrying about others: Party officials must become mothers who ceaselessly love and teach the Party rank and file, and become standard-bearers at the forefront of activities. In other words, someone in charge of lodgings has to become a mother to the boarders. This means looking carefully after everything: whether someone is cold or sick, how they are eating, and so on. 4) A metaphor for the source from which something originates: The Party is the great mother of everything new. Necessity is the mother of invention. Hodgepodge fucked around with this message at 23:20 on Oct 11, 2014 |
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Oct 11, 2014 18:24
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Trochanter posted:If North Korea's government collapses, can/will its neighbours seal off the borders and let its people die en masse? The only country seriously worried is China, because they'd have a massive influx of refugees they can't provide for and gunning them down en masse once they cross the border will cause major diplomatic problems. SK can easily seal/monitor its borders, plus the US will mostly likely jump in to help given the number of US troops in the region available to assist. The most serious problem in the event of a collapse is the foreign military teams rushing in to secure the nuclear materials and weapons. People hypothesizing a NK collapse scenario have mentioned how there is no international plan to deal with it so its entirely possible that Russian, Chinese, and US spec ops teams will run into each other during the process and start shooting at whoever doesn't back down.
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Oct 11, 2014 18:29
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I think the worst case scenario is a civil war erupt inside NK. As long as the NK party leader doesn't collapse they can always con food and supply from outside.
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Oct 11, 2014 19:34
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Hodgepodge posted:One interesting part of the argument of the author whose lecture was posted above is that North Korean propaganda has been so effectively racist that they're terrified of most of the world outside of North and maybe South Korea and wouldn't want to leave unless the alternative is literally starvation. Dunno which documentary that went into it, but North Korea isn't quite paternalistic (as we'd imagine it) and got this weird "Mother" thing going on with their leadership image. 
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Oct 11, 2014 20:14
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Pimpmust posted:Dunno which documentary that went into it, but North Korea isn't quite paternalistic (as we'd imagine it) and got this weird "Mother" thing going on with their leadership image. You caught a very confusing typo in that post. The corrected version: quote:With the maternal elements he (very effectively) argues take precedence over paternalistic imagery in the Kim cult, I could see Jong-Il's daughter replacing her brother quite smoothly; perhaps with a new conciliatory attitude that is less aggressive towards the outside world in exchange for aid and perhaps even legitimate trade to a degree.
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Oct 11, 2014 23:21
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Slightly off topic, but does anyone here want to go on an organised tour to north korea with me next year? None of my IRL friends want to do it, and I figure nothing can be worse than a bunch of goons on the internet. This is a serious post, so let me know. I probably won't sell you to camp 22 (don't talk about this)
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Oct 12, 2014 00:02
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backifran posted:Slightly off topic, but does anyone here want to go on an organised tour to north korea with me next year? This sounds like a Bad Idea.
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Oct 12, 2014 00:04
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There's that blog of the guy who got on a train in Moscow with a regular ticket and just went to Pyongyang, like they thought nobody would ever try it so they didn't bother to stop it from happening http://vienna-pyongyang.blogspot.com/
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Oct 12, 2014 00:25
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Silver2195 posted:This sounds like a Bad Idea. North Korea is more unstable than it's been in years? Sounds like a fun time.
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Oct 12, 2014 00:26
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Silver2195 posted:This sounds like a Bad Idea. This here looks pretty official: http://www.regent-holidays.co.uk/country/north-korea-holidays/ Also, I am serious. If there's any goon as dumbfuck as me that wants to this then let me know. We can report back and be goon heroes/martyrs (I am serious)
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Oct 12, 2014 00:27
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Wow a trip to North Korea!! Hope you enjoy the idea of your money going to pay directly for the lifestyles of the people in charge and the support of the government as fun tourists looking for an exciting adventure give them hard currency they're able to use to trade with China. People will be really impressed when you come back to show them the photos of a place they've never been, you will really be defining yourself as an adventurer who isn't afraid of anything!! I'm unable to go myself but I will forward this message to other goons (and maybe a few curvy goonettes  ). Good luck and hope you enjoy the unique trip to a dystopian horrorland!!
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Oct 12, 2014 01:14
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backifran posted:This here looks pretty official: http://www.regent-holidays.co.uk/country/north-korea-holidays/ There may not be a North Korea next year. Plus controlled tour is super lame. You won't see anything they don't allow you to see.
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Oct 12, 2014 01:25
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Hodgepodge posted:With the maternal elements he (very effectively) argues take precedence over paternalistic imagery in the Kim cult, I could see Jong-Il's daughter replacing her brother quite smoothly; perhaps with a new conciliatory attitude that is less aggressive towards the outside world in exchange for aid and perhaps even legitimate trade to a degree. Earlier this year the BBC published a web article discussing North Korean cinema. It has the interesting thought that women actually feature very prominently as central heroines in their films, albeit mainly because male characters aren't allowed to overshadow those paragons of manliness the Kims.
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Oct 12, 2014 02:09
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That and I just can't see traditional North Korean culture accepting a female head of state.
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Oct 12, 2014 02:10
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icantfindaname posted:There's that blog of the guy who got on a train in Moscow with a regular ticket and just went to Pyongyang, like they thought nobody would ever try it so they didn't bother to stop it from happening This guy can read Russian though so that helped alot. I spent an hour reading his Eurasia 2005 railway journal blog from Austria thru Russia, Mongolia to Beijing; and the back through the way of Xinjiang and Kazakhstan. It was basically one of those Michael Palin journey but done with a few normal guys.
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Oct 12, 2014 02:10
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backifran posted:Slightly off topic, but does anyone here want to go on an organised tour to north korea with me next year? I'd be interested, honestly. How much have you figured the travel costs and all out to be? Fall Sick and Die posted:Wow a trip to North Korea!! Hope you enjoy the idea of your money going to pay directly for the lifestyles of the people in charge and the support of the government as fun tourists looking for an exciting adventure give them hard currency they're able to use to trade with China. People will be really impressed when you come back to show them the photos of a place they've never been, you will really be defining yourself as an adventurer who isn't afraid of anything!! I'm unable to go myself but I will forward this message to other goons (and maybe a few curvy goonettes Actually as a cold war history major, it's a valuable tool for me to see first-hand the situation in North Korea today. I am student-teaching a high school about the Korean war right now, and if I could see first-hand the situation there, be able to describe it more fully, the students might come away with a greater awareness of the situation and be far more inclined to donate money to help after a government collapse. It's not the same thing as visiting New Orleans post-Katrina and gawking at the destruction, it's a valid way to learn about another culture and see how they see the world, or at least try to. Dusty Baker 2 fucked around with this message at 05:07 on Oct 12, 2014 |
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Oct 12, 2014 05:03
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Dusty Baker 2 posted:Actually as a cold war history major, it's a valuable tool for me to see first-hand the situation in North Korea today. I am student-teaching a high school about the Korean war right now, and if I could see first-hand the situation there, be able to describe it more fully, the students might come away with a greater awareness of the situation and be far more inclined to donate money to help after a government collapse. It's not the same thing as visiting New Orleans post-Katrina and gawking at the destruction, it's a valid way to learn about another culture and see how they see the world, or at least try to. OK, with all that said, actual bright-eyed defectors have been sentenced to labor camps in recent memory. Taking one's chances as a western tourist in a period of potential instability in NK is a 9 on the scale of 1-"let's see what ISIS-held territory is really like!"
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Oct 12, 2014 05:21
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Jack of Hearts posted:OK, with all that said, actual bright-eyed defectors have been sentenced to labor camps in recent memory. Taking one's chances as a western tourist in a period of potential instability in NK is a 9 on the scale of 1-"let's see what ISIS-held territory is really like!" I don't think North Korea is stupid enough to kidnap an American citizen and keep them. They tend to return them when the US gives them a stern look. I also long for the warm embrace of death.
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Oct 12, 2014 05:31
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Dusty Baker 2 posted:I don't think North Korea is stupid enough to kidnap an American citizen and keep them. They tend to return them when the US gives them a stern look. I also long for the warm embrace of death. Sure, but the point is that's subject to at least minor negotiations under current conditions. This is the best case scenario for what constitutes a real possibility, and reading the current tea leaves, who knows if you'll face the best case under changing circumstances. I guess what I'm saying is that TCC should have you covered for that level of reckless disregard for your person.
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Oct 12, 2014 05:45
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Controlled tours are pretty routine I thought but its basically tantamount to poverty porn/rear end in a top hat tourism i.e., those people who go to golf in NK.
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Oct 12, 2014 06:03
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The Lonely Planet guide to North Korea is pretty depressing, particularly the part imploring you not to slip away from your guides. For most people, this isn't likely to result in more than a fine, short imprisonment, and then deportation. For your guide, though, you've likely ruined their life. They'll lose their job at least, and might even get shot for what you did.
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Oct 12, 2014 06:46
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TheBalor posted:The Lonely Planet guide to North Korea is pretty depressing, particularly the part imploring you not to slip away from your guides. For most people, this isn't likely to result in more than a fine, short imprisonment, and then deportation. For your guide, though, you've likely ruined their life. They'll lose their job at least, and might even get shot for what you did. drat they should put that in the brochure. Very few vacations let you kill your tour guide.
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Oct 12, 2014 10:54
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If North Korea collapses I think it will be a brutal quick civil war with whichever rear end in a top hat Elite family makes a Sopranos/Hitler coming to power kind of scenario where they just execute all the enemies at once. It will also be backed by whoever China endorses similar to how the USA has done it in the past in other countries, only more blatant about it. It may be unstable for a bit, but it will most likely end quickly and end up being even more tightly controlled by China and even more radical because now you have a family who got to power with China's full endorsement and by being a murdering tyrant from the drop. So basically the status quo without copyright infringing Disney characters on ice.
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Oct 12, 2014 13:21
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I've been wanting to go to NK for years now. It's not that hard, but the flights are actually pretty expensive. Thought apparently once there, you don't really have anything to spend money on except booze.
Oldsmobile fucked around with this message at 18:40 on Oct 12, 2014 |
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Oct 12, 2014 18:24
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pentyne posted:During the escape the one guy died across some electrified wires, and it was the only thing that let the other guy escape. Pretty sure that's from the story of the guy from Camp 14. He wasn't a border guard. fe: Then again, that might be the only plausible way to escape from the prison camps. I could be wrong on this. Oldsmobile posted:I've been wanting to go to NK for years now. It's not that hard, but the flights are actually pretty expensive. Thought apparently once there, you don't really have anything to spend money on except booze. Go after it falls. Try not to fund any more despotic monarchies.
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Oct 13, 2014 03:22
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WarpedNaba posted:Pretty sure that's from the story of the guy from Camp 14. He wasn't a border guard. It should still be on Netflix, Nat Geo Explorer Inside North Korea. The highlights were that NK let in a western doctor to perform cataract surgery on a few dozen people, and after the operations the people were taking to a shrine of a photo KJI and became weeping and praising him for giving them their sight back, pretending that the doctor and the other Westerners were irrelevant. Another was when visiting the home of a moderately well off family (they had a simple CRT tv) the Nat Geo lady was asking a little girl which picture of KJI was her favorite, as the wall was covered with heroic paintings of Dear Leader and various pictures, and the NK tour guide interrupted to tell her the girl's favorite was "all of them" and warned her against asking about it again. https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=mxLBywKrTf4#t=2100 Found it, the guy was the officer in charge of a propaganda outpost, one of his subordinates mistakenly said the next day was a holiday, and the officer and his friend drugged the other guards and made a break for the SK border. Oldsmobile posted:I've been wanting to go to NK for years now. It's not that hard, but the flights are actually pretty expensive. Thought apparently once there, you don't really have anything to spend money on except booze. Holy gently caress what is it with goons suddenly going "Oh, well I'd love to visit North Korea". There's literally nothing to to but stay at the one hotel for foreigners, and be lead around by a tour guide to see the great triumphs of North Korea's prosperous rule. Plus all the money goes directly into the pockets of a tyrannical system. It's like saying you want to visit Syria but only if your money went straight into Assad's pockets. pentyne fucked around with this message at 03:36 on Oct 13, 2014 |
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Oct 13, 2014 03:31
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