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Wow. Googling 'Camp 22' brings up it's Google Earth coordinates, right at the top. That's new to me, at least. Edit: Hahaha, the reviews are pretty alright/awful - https://plus.google.com/app/basic/113692373933202928828/about?gl=us&hl=en Armani fucked around with this message at 03:37 on Oct 13, 2014 |
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Oct 13, 2014 03:33
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pentyne posted:Holy gently caress what is it with goons suddenly going "Oh, well I'd love to visit North Korea". There's literally nothing to to but stay at the one hotel for foreigners, and be lead around by a tour guide to see the great triumphs of North Korea's prosperous rule. Plus all the money goes directly into the pockets of a tyrannical system. It's like saying you want to visit Syria but only if your money went straight into Assad's pockets. I'd love to do it to see the unique surreality of the place. I wouldn't do it because of the reasons you mention, and because knowing what I'm not seeing would make it very depressing. It's not complicated.
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Oct 13, 2014 04:10
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I almost went to North Korea in 2002, while living in South Korea. Pyongyang stopped issuing visas to US citizens, which put the kibosh on my plans to see a Stalinist theme park. I actually stepped across the border at the conference room in Panmunjeom, but that doesn't really count. Koryeo Tours in Beijing is the only outfitter for Nork tourism. Your gateway is Beijing, and the tour is essentially a "take it or leave it" kind of deal. Tours are tightly supervised, and you are confined to a hotel on an island, segregated from the rest of Pyongyang. They are also rather spendy - I seem to remember just over $1000/week, all included, per person. You don't get to interact with ordinary Norks, and are subject to heavy propaganda from your guides. I know a few people who have done the trip - they say the Korean food is pretty good, and there's a lot of soju drinking in the evenings at the hotel. Obviously there's no Internet or cell phones or foreign media.
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Oct 13, 2014 08:00
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pentyne posted:The highlights were that NK let in a western doctor to perform cataract surgery on a few dozen people, and after the operations the people were taking to a shrine of a photo KJI and became weeping and praising him for giving them their sight back, pretending that the doctor and the other Westerners were irrelevant. In their defense, lots of people do that in America too, except with Jesus  .
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Oct 13, 2014 08:23
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Tiberius Thyben posted:In their defense, lots of people do that in America too, except with Jesus Q: What do you get when you remove the spine from christian jesus? A: Juche business as usual E: While getting drunk as gently caress in NK does sound fun, I'd rather get drunk as gently caress in SK.
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Oct 13, 2014 08:30
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My Imaginary GF posted:While getting drunk as gently caress in NK does sound fun, I'd rather get drunk as gently caress in SK. Kind of hard to avoid that in South Korea. Soju is cheaper than Coca-Cola there. It's bad manners not to get wasted with your boss when he invites you out - can be perilous. I once saw a couple of wasted and besuited men screaming and slap-fighting each other outside a bar in Hongdae. When I asked my host what they were screaming at each other about, he said that one of them had wanted to stop drinking, precipitating the fight.
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Oct 13, 2014 10:09
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TheImmigrant posted:I almost went to North Korea in 2002, while living in South Korea. Pyongyang stopped issuing visas to US citizens, which put the kibosh on my plans to see a Stalinist theme park. I actually stepped across the border at the conference room in Panmunjeom, but that doesn't really count. These days North Korea does have internet and cell phone service, but it's pretty much only for foreign visitors' use. If I remember right it's done through a partnership with an Arabian cell phone company.
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Oct 13, 2014 18:35
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TheImmigrant posted:Kind of hard to avoid that in South Korea. Soju is cheaper than Coca-Cola there. It's bad manners not to get wasted with your boss when he invites you out - can be perilous. I once saw a couple of wasted and besuited men screaming and slap-fighting each other outside a bar in Hongdae. When I asked my host what they were screaming at each other about, he said that one of them had wanted to stop drinking, precipitating the fight. They also got some pretty complex drinking games. And allegations of cheating at those are apperantly serious buisness.
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Oct 13, 2014 21:47
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TheImmigrant posted:Kind of hard to avoid that in South Korea. Soju is cheaper than Coca-Cola there. What sort of backwards people don't have a strong enough corn lobby to allow this?!?  
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Oct 13, 2014 22:11
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Mightypeon posted:They also got some pretty complex drinking games. I want to learn more.
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Oct 13, 2014 22:14
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My Imaginary GF posted:I want to learn more. Then buy a ticket and go as part of a goon delagation with that guy from earlier in the thread and then report back.
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Oct 13, 2014 22:23
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hitchensgoespop posted:Then buy a ticket and go as part of a goon delagation with that guy from earlier in the thread and then report back. Oh yeah, lets go to North Korea. That'll look great on project applications or doing business with South Koreans. 
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Oct 13, 2014 22:25
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BBC reporting that he's back! Praise be! http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-29608096
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Oct 13, 2014 22:56
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SK is really nice and I highly recommend visiting. Old palaces are pretty boring but the food and drinking culture is among the best of anywhere I've been. Soju is the strangest spirit--you seem to get punch drunk immediately and it wears off equally fast with minimal hangover.
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Oct 13, 2014 23:36
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Well gently caress the party is over. BUT THERE IS HOPE! HE IS A BODY DOUBLE!!!!
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Oct 14, 2014 01:50
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If Korea's drinking culture is anything like China's, everyone' favorite game is "Get the Foreigner Shitfaced" and you'll have people paying for all of your drinks.
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Oct 14, 2014 01:50
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backifran posted:BBC reporting that he's back! Praise be! Hurray! 
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Oct 14, 2014 01:59
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So it really was just a "didn't want to be seen in a leg brace" thing, then. Ah well. I guess we will still have our favorite anachronistic, reclusive, totalitarian state hanging around awkwardly on the world stage.
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Oct 14, 2014 02:11
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My money is still on this set of photos was taken before major poo poo went down.
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Oct 14, 2014 02:42
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whatever7 posted:My money is still on this set of photos was taken before major poo poo went down. 
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Oct 14, 2014 02:44
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whatever7 posted:Well gently caress the party is over. All those surgeons trucking in from overseas... not gonna rule it out. 
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Oct 14, 2014 02:46
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Issue: He has feet.
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Oct 14, 2014 02:46
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c0ldfuse posted:SK is really nice and I highly recommend visiting. Old palaces are pretty boring but the food and drinking culture is among the best of anywhere I've been. Are... are you sure you went to South Korea? On Earth? I've lived and worked in SK for the last few years. The old palaces here are awesome, but unfortunately mostly restorations thanks to the Japanese smashing up everything while they were occupying (see some Important Intangible Cultural Properties instead). The food culture is okay, especially outside of Seoul, but can't really hold a candle to the rest of Asia. The drinking culture is great if you like to get really drunk all the time. Also congratulations on drinking the correct amount of Soju (ie: not enough) because a Soju hangover is not something I'd wish on anyone. Anyway, all of my friends here are early-20s to early-30s and exactly zero of them are in favor of reunification. The only people I know who are even sympathetic to the idea are my girlfriend's parents, because there's a branch of her grandmother's family still in the north. Even they are quick to point out that it would wreck the economy. Really, every day that passes means there's fewer people around that actually lived in a unified Korea, and fewer people that are willing to entertain the idea of reunification. I think, frankly, the window has passed. It's worth noting, too, that the North has been sending barely-competent spies to SK for years, as well as state-sponsored terrorist agents (like with Korean Air Flight 858) with the understanding that they'll get caught. So now, for the few Northerners that do make it to the South, they're universally distrusted. Combine that with almost no useful modern-world skills, they end up working as farmhands, diner cooks, or prostitutes and barely eke by. Basically trading their lovely life in the North for a lovely life in the South. I think someone mentioned it in the thread before, and they were definitely on the money: if the North collapses tomorrow, the South will probably - at best - do a bunch of hand-wringing and make some token gestures, but there's no way in hell they'd open the borders. It'd mean China gets saddled with 24 million starving people without any real assets, and a gigantic pain in the rear end territory dispute with an American-backed South Korea.
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Oct 14, 2014 02:50
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Has he ever been pictured with a cane before? That seems kind of odd to me. No matter how sick KJI got I never saw him use anything other than a bodyguard to prop him up, although It's certainly possible I just missed it.
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Oct 14, 2014 03:19
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Cuatal posted:If Korea's drinking culture is anything like China's, everyone' favorite game is "Get the Foreigner Shitfaced" and you'll have people paying for all of your drinks. It's bad manners to pour drinks for yourself while out drinking with Koreans, and it's also rude to refuse a drink someone has poured for you. The result is that the biggest lush at the table determines how much everyone will drink, as he continues pouring soju for the gathering. Anyone ever been out for mak chang? That was always a favorite for Koreans to introduce to waegukin. Sit around a boozy restaurant grilling your own cow and pig intestines and eating banchan.
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Oct 14, 2014 06:44
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Full Battle Rattle posted:Has he ever been pictured with a cane before? That seems kind of odd to me. No matter how sick KJI got I never saw him use anything other than a bodyguard to prop him up, although It's certainly possible I just missed it. At first I shared your thoughts, but when I thought about it, it might actually be a pretty big difference. We won't ever know exactly what's ailing the dude, but when people see a relatively healthy* 32 year old with a cane, 99% of them are thinking "Which sport did he sprain his ankle playing?" or, if you're one of the more thoroughly brainwashed North Koreans, "Which troops did he sprain his ankle commanding?" Kim Jong-Il never would have appeared in a picture with a cane, at least definitely not in the latter decade or so of his rule, because that would have sent a message to the US, whose intelligence leadership might think to themselves, "Hey, KJI's sick and his sons are young/effeminate/not properly groomed, maybe we should step on the gas a little harder to make some deals with some wannabe-warlords in the military?" The contrast between the young and the old with minor injuries and/or disabilities with adaptive equipment is pretty large. *yes I know there's reports that he chain smokes and gained some weight, but I think my point/guess still stands edit for clarity: I mean without verifiable knowledge of what the ailment is, it's safe to assume KJU will bounce back naturally since he's quite young. KJI showing up with a cane, even without having any idea of what's behind it, means there'd be a not-insignificant chance that it could be something serious. And if it was something serious enough, there's a good chance that the higher-ups would be looking to cut a deal. Bastaman Vibration fucked around with this message at 07:31 on Oct 14, 2014 |
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Oct 14, 2014 07:25
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dinoputz posted:At first I shared your thoughts, but when I thought about it, it might actually be a pretty big difference. We won't ever know exactly what's ailing the dude, but when people see a relatively healthy* 32 year old with a cane, 99% of them are thinking "Which sport did he sprain his ankle playing?" or, if you're one of the more thoroughly brainwashed North Koreans, "Which troops did he sprain his ankle commanding?" Kim Jong-Il never would have appeared in a picture with a cane, at least definitely not in the latter decade or so of his rule, because that would have sent a message to the US, whose intelligence leadership might think to themselves, "Hey, KJI's sick and his sons are young/effeminate/not properly groomed, maybe we should step on the gas a little harder to make some deals with some wannabe-warlords in the military?" The contrast between the young and the old with minor injuries and/or disabilities with adaptive equipment is pretty large. Sounds like someone doesn't have control over their personal appearances any more.
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Oct 14, 2014 07:29
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My Imaginary GF posted:Sounds like someone doesn't have control over their personal appearances any more. More likely they just want to counter the "KJU is dead" speculation.
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Oct 14, 2014 09:54
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Sheng-ji Yang posted:It seems obvious to me that the military pretty much actually runs the show, and that since Sung got sick they've just been figureheads for a junta. A human heart posted:Haven't there been instances of high ranking North Koreans not being seen for a while before, leading to speculation that they're dead or have been purged, and quite often it turns out that they're fine when they show up again a year or so later? TheBalor posted:A big issue with the North Korean system is that it endeavors to make everyone into villains for easier control, but most especially anyone who tries to escape. It might have loosened up in previous years, but in the past the standard punishment for a defector was for their entire family out to three degrees in all directions to be thrown into a labor camp. Thus, anyone who wanted to escape had to do so with the knowledge that they were condemning probably dozens of people they knew and loved to death. Not to mention the whole incentive system for ratting out your neighbors, and how elites at the highest levels were expected to violate laws in other countries to make big donations back home. BigT posted:If North Korea collapses I think it will be a brutal quick civil war with whichever rear end in a top hat Elite family makes a Sopranos/Hitler coming to power kind of scenario where they just execute all the enemies at once. quote:It will also be backed by whoever China endorses similar to how the USA has done it in the past in other countries, only more blatant about it. It may be unstable for a bit, but it will most likely end quickly and end up being even more tightly controlled by China and even more radical because now you have a family who got to power with China's full endorsement and by being a murdering tyrant from the drop. Auritech posted:This is probably not a remarkable incident, but it does deserve note:
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Oct 14, 2014 15:52
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My Imaginary GF posted:Issue: He has feet. QED: He's a robot.
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Oct 14, 2014 17:41
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Kaal posted:QED: He's a robot. The norks have developed  technology. Clearly, we cannot let them surpass us in the robotic oligarch race.I do wonder if the military is making a move against him right now/how much control his family's personal patronage network has over NK policy development.
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Oct 14, 2014 21:10
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That cane might be a symbol that the Kims are effectively out of power. It does seem like a stretch, but that assertion that a council wouldn't let Un make a fool of himself...well, after those incidents, he disappears, misses an extremely important function, and comes back using a cane. That's tinfoil hat territory, for sure, but the military can't really make a blatant play on Kim's life due to how intertwined the Kim bloodline is with the actual North Korean Government. Deposing a Kim by force could lead to a total breakdown. Instead, he steps out of line a couple of times, you show him who the REAL boss is, and you get these overtures out of the blue. Or maybe they really are just insane and this is just business as usual and he actually did just give himself gout. Some bonus vice coverage Full Battle Rattle fucked around with this message at 04:10 on Oct 15, 2014 |
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Oct 15, 2014 04:07
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If he's going to try to bring cane-related game, he's got a long road to travel.
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Oct 15, 2014 04:15
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Full Battle Rattle posted:That cane might be a symbol that the Kims are effectively out of power. It does seem like a stretch, but that assertion that a council wouldn't let Un make a fool of himself...well, after those incidents, he disappears, misses an extremely important function, and comes back using a cane. That's tinfoil hat territory, for sure, but the military can't really make a blatant play on Kim's life due to how intertwined the Kim bloodline is with the actual North Korean Government. Deposing a Kim by force could lead to a total breakdown. Instead, he steps out of line a couple of times, you show him who the REAL boss is, and you get these overtures out of the blue. So what happened, exactly? They broke his leg, and he got the message? He's been in charge of a particularly murderous apparatus for years. There's no way to leave him in "power" while seizing control unless you make him a eunuch and put him in an a Forbidden Palace-like structure. i.e., no way all Kim loyalists go over at once, and getting rid of them would involve a truly massive purge.
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Oct 15, 2014 04:50
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You can't contain a dictator, either there was no coup at all, or Kim3 has been killed and you are reading fake news. There is no middle ground. The only way to make your troops follow your order in a coup is to kill the No.1 guy ASAP to burn the bridges for all your subordinates.
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Oct 15, 2014 05:21
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whatever7 posted:You can't contain a dictator, either there was no coup at all, or Kim3 has been killed and you are reading fake news. There is no middle ground. Even barring an actual coup, it's not hard to imagine a situation where Kim found himself cut out of the day-to-day running of the country for the past month or so due to medical factors. By which I mean someone may have been taking advantage of the time Kim's been out cold for ankle surgery and recovery.
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Oct 15, 2014 05:39
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I swear if reunification happens in my lifetime I want a tell all book of what actually occurred during all of these types of events. It'd be nice to get closure.
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Oct 15, 2014 13:00
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It doesn't matter whether or not China wants to be in charge of NK. In the event of a collapse backing the strongest warlord may be China's only option. The alternative may well be to shoot several million starving refugees swarming the border.
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Oct 15, 2014 14:26
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In terms of effort and cost, wouldn't backing the strongest warlord be a far cheaper alternative to simply slaughtering the refugees, also?
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Oct 15, 2014 14:54
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I wouldn't assume that all factions in a Nork breakdown would be pro-Chinese.
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Oct 15, 2014 14:59
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